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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    Star Wars Galaxies was fantastic because there were so many things you could do like this that involved you in a world without ever being part of a group.

    Wanna dance in the cantina in Mos Eisley and entertain other players who stop by? You could do that all game session long and have an enrichening experience.

    I used to love sitting in Coronet as a doctor just healing and buffing people who came by, for a small fee, of course

    Or you could run around the planets hoping to find a special new ore that just spawned and no one else had noticed yet, dropping your harvesters on it and making a fortune simply by virtue of finding it before anyone else. Or making the absolute best equipment your server had ever seen because you had so much of this fantastic material.

    People would hold art auctions for the wealthy. You could put that rare painting you had acquired by shooting Durni's for a few days by yourself up for consignment and walk away with a small mint. And somebody with lots of credits now had a new piece to show off in their house.

    SWG and Ultima Online and the like are still so well regarded because they were worlds, not group instance lobbies. You lived in these worlds, doing things alone or with others as you chose and as interested you. The most desired class in SWG, Jedi, was literally designed to be played alone. Playing a Jedi around other people would get you killed.

    People who think MMOs are only about getting in a group and speedrunning through an instance have absolutely lost the soul of what an MMO can be. And embracing that philosophy is why WoW is so soulless and dull. The world in WoW doesn't exist simply to exist, it's there as a graphical interface for the raid/M+ content and serves no other purpose.
    I hated everything about SWG gameplay, but that world stuff really was amazing and like no other game! (I say this as someone who only plays wow for instance group content!). The ability to have a useful character like a dancer or doctor who wasn't a "combat" character was pretty awesome, on top of all the player economy stuff.

    I'm just not convinced it can every be replicated by a modern game with current monetization incentive structures and audiences.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by ONCHEhap View Post
    Then you've been lied to about FFXIV. It's literally the only mainstream MMO out there that straight up forces you to play with other people to even see the story. There's this weird romanisation of that game as a perfect solo game when you can't access the story, the expansions or pretty much anything past lv 20 without having to clear dungeons, trials (single boss instances) and alliance raids (24 man raids) with other players
    You can complete all of ARR now completely solo using the trust system. They will be incorporating past expansion content as well during the Endwalker patch cycles.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    And there lies the problem. Players puts up various barriers to bar others from joining their group. Sure, they well within their rights to do so and I do not disagree with that. But it does means some players will get excluded and will not be able to experience these elements in the game.

    Blizzard has tried to remedy this with LFR and LFD but some players object to this claiming it ruins the game. Personally, I think it just hurts their ego by not having contents exclusive to themselves.
    They aren't excluded from the content. They ate excluded from doing the content with that group of players. You can't force ppl to invite you. Start your own group and you'll never be excluded again.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by ONCHEhap View Post
    As someone who's introverted to a crippling degree, I'll still support group content over anything else in a MMO. The main issue with the people you're talking about is egoism. They don't care about what anyone else wants and so they'll demand that a game played by hundreds of thousands bends around their personal preferences and no one else's.

    You can be introverted without being a self centered idiot, but those people clearly didn't get the memo
    It doesn't help that the systems in WoW promote that "Egoism" behaviour. All of the challenges and reward systems are built around the individual, rather than the collective whole, which is why the game is so competitive even in its PVE.

    I always compare this mentality to a co-op game like Monster Hunter, which is built like a Diablo clone but fosters a WIDELY co-operative community environment because the goals and challenges are designed around collective progress rather than competition within the team. And it's really interesting to see how WoW even differs from the community mentality of many other MMO's comparatively when doing similar content.

    It's like WoW's systems are designed to appeal to one's Ego. I see this a lot in League of Legends as well when compared to many other MOBAs, where its strength is in its ability to make you feel bigger than you are in the team. The "Carry" mentality is very pervasive in both WoW and League of Legends.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Yes it is wrong because that genrre also embraces single player content. youare trying to dictate what an MMO is and are telling people to get lost if they want other content that you have decided does not fit the definition you are trying to dictate.

    You are not the sole arbiter of what an MMO is. Single player content is a part of it whether you like it or not. They have the right to ask for more single player content and it is a reasonable request. Telling payers to shut up and get lost lf you don't like group content like you are doing is wrong.
    I'm not dictating, I'm observing. That was very clear in what I wrote. Strange that you want to pretend otherwise.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    People who think MMOs are only about getting in a group and speedrunning through an instance have absolutely lost the soul of what an MMO can be. And embracing that philosophy is why WoW is so soulless and dull. The world in WoW doesn't exist simply to exist, it's there as a graphical interface for the raid/M+ content and serves no other purpose.
    I can socialize with my family and friends in real life. I can relax watching a movie. I can get a great story from a good book. I can immerse myself in much better and more fitted single player games. But you know what I can't get anywhere else? Playing a game where I kill a dragon with 20 other people. This is why I come to mmos. Maybe it's you who has too much time on their hands, can't find better experiences and human interaction outside and focuses on one game alone for all their needs and wastes the core potential and designation of mmos.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Only if there is no gear rewards or only the last boss rewards a single piece once a week.
    I don't see why there should be any restriction like that at all. But I guess you're one of those against anyone except Heroic/Mythic raiders should get any kind of progression.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    I don't see why there should be any restriction like that at all. But I guess you're one of those against anyone except Heroic/Mythic raiders should get any kind of progression.
    Imagine thinking that the best rewards in a MMO should stay locked behind group content as being a controversial opinion. If you want the best rewards for single player content play a fucking single player game.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Or is it? Those systems are iterated from previous ideas that morphed from content created exclusively for that expansion. Case in point: M+ is derived from the CM dungeons from MoP and WoD. That's the history of how M+ came to be. Granted the current iterations of M+ (IMO) lean to heavily on MDI and other tournament play that affects the rest of the player base in both positive and negative ways.




    Because players want new and shiny and not rehashed older content. Just look at the initial responses to SL Season 4 rehashed older (mega) dungeons and fated raids. In fact, we're seeing this extended in DF season 1 (and probably season 2) on the M+ dungeon list.

    Granted, I'm personally in favor of these systems because the alternative is worse aka 2+ years of the same dungeons each season repeated for the same loot just higher ilv.

    And like I pointed out in the first point: Older content isn't necessarily "forgotten" some systems are carried forward or iterated to bring a new version.

    Let's go back to Island Expeditions, the principle of IEs were to provide an alternative means to grind AP compared to the Legion AP grind of doing M+ dungeons over and over again. While IEs did fail because player response to them was low, it did pave the way towards the renown system we have now in SL where progression forward is capped so that as long as you keep up, you're fine. Additionally, for those who do fall behind, the early catch up mechanism is accelerated until you get close to cap. Current catch-up jumps you even further to where you can effectively get to 80 relatively quickly.

    So far, we're seeing the same renown system moving forward in DF except instead of having to grind each individual "faction", all factions progression renown at the same time.




    That's easier said than done. Just look at how badly tuned Iron Docks, Lower Kara were on the first week of Season 4. Even the loot had to be buffed to make some of them more meaningful than vendor loot. And again, the argument comes up to where are the resources to do this overhaul for not just every expansion but also every season? Remember there are a finite amount of resources/time even for a company as big as Activision-Blizzard.

    Honestly, Season 4 should have had more attention given to it. Some of the issues from M+ could have easily been seen with just a small group (say 2 groups of 5) running S4 M+ keys at the +10, +15, and +20 levels with different affix combos to see where obvious problems are.



    But how many people are going to RP through Ulduar? I honestly don't see how that would be a significant number of players that moves Activision-Blizzard to say: "Hey we should put some resources into this!". You're more than welcome to prove me wrong with a petition... I'd like to see if that petition could even reach a million.



    The problem is that WoW isn't designed for that very well. Even the example found on Youtube required extensive modding AND it wasn't shown if it could be done on a larger (multiplayer) scale. The last few episodes of Mythic Quest Season 2 basically hit this on the head. "Hera" has amazing features but MQ wasn't designed for them so it just doesn't work. Instead it would be easier/better to create a new game based on "Hera" so that those features can be realized.

    Heck wasn't Aerial Combat promised back in WotLK? Where's that "feature"?

    - - - Updated - - -



    It's a bit unfair to compare WoW to newer MMOs which may have been designed from the ground up to include player housing. Moreover, the initial implementation of player housing back in the old days (think EQ days) were pretty crappy and it wasn't a big feature that the majority of the playerbase went for.

    And while player taste may change over time, at this point, it seems that Blizzard would need to play catch-up with more modern MMOs with player housing. So that even if that feature was added in DF, you would still have complaints that WoW's player housing wasn't as deep or rich compared to FF14, ESO, or <insert other new MMO>.

    And lastly, adding in player housing as a new system wouldn't necessarily expand SP content for the previous expansions unless Blizzard also went back and made new content for those older expansions to be farmed for. Which then begs the question, why invest there (in older content) when you could do the same in the newer zones? Instead of 3 chairs from DF, 1 from SL, 1 from BFA, 1 from Legion (etc etc), why not just make 10 different chairs from DF?
    You could make 10 chairs from DF --- just 3 of them are updated versions of previous assets, and placed in older raids during timewalking or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelthon
    do i wanting my cat come the expansion due to signifying a reroll fresh scratch the night elf mage?

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Wrong. MMO means "massive multi-player online" which only means many people in one spot online. IN no way does it mean mainly group content.
    100% wrong.

    MMO is a term, used back when the companies would state/market, that you need internet connection and you could play with random people. It was exclusive back then to have a relaible Internet connection.

    With your definition, you are technically on MMO platform, the second you log on Steam/Bnet before lunching a game.

    The game is defined by the devs. They would had implementet Minecraft version of WoW, if they saw the need. The audiance is not there - and you need find another game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    I don't see why there should be any restriction like that at all. But I guess you're one of those against anyone except Heroic/Mythic raiders should get any kind of progression.
    It's a question of implementation. If you solve this, I promise you will become a legend.

    Question is this:
    How do you equally reward a person playing solo, when 10-20 people need work together, coordinate and be very persistent. If these people would overcome bigger challenges - like a group content, they would also excel in soloplay. Assume now that you would have a tremendous skill gap between the solo and multiplayers.

    It's like saying you need to have equal pay of the sum of 10-20 people just because you are at the company.

    Any reasonable answer?
    Last edited by HansOlo; 2022-08-10 at 06:45 PM.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Imagine thinking that the best rewards in a MMO should stay locked behind group content as being a controversial opinion. If you want the best rewards for single player content play a fucking single player game.
    I never said that. Stop strawmanning.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Imagine thinking that the best rewards in a MMO should stay locked behind group content as being a controversial opinion. If you want the best rewards for single player content play a fucking single player game.
    So any kind of progression is now 'best rewards'?

    Give me a fucking break dude. Stop with that nonsense. You're literally strawmanning again, and you know it.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    It's a question of implementation. If you solve this, I promise you will become a legend.

    Question is this:
    How do you equally reward a person playing solo, when 10-20 people need work together, coordinate and be very persistent. If these people would overcome bigger challenges - like a group content, they would also excel in soloplay. Assume now that you would have a tremendous skill gap between the solo and multiplayers.

    It's like saying you need to have equal pay of the sum of 10-20 people just because you are at the company.

    Any reasonable answer?
    Well, I'm for "solo progression" - that doesn't necessarily mean you can use the stuff I imagine you'd get from solo instance as effectively in, let's say, PvP. Could apply the PvP mindset but reversed. The gear you get from this solo instance is highly more effective inside there but pretty average outside.

    Anyways, I just wish there was _something_ that you could progress outside of groups but was challenging. I do like Torghast but the rewards and stuff are extremely lacking.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    I never said that. Stop strawmanning.
    I'm sorry, is there any other way to interpret you saying that you don't see an issue with getting the best rewards from single player content?

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I'm sorry, is there any other way to interpret you saying that you don't see an issue with getting the best rewards from single player content?
    "Best rewards" was never once mentioned.

    Progression merely means progression.

    Even PVP has progression, and the rewards are not considered 'Best rewards' for singleplayer content.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    So any kind of progression is now 'best rewards'?

    Give me a fucking break dude. Stop with that nonsense. You're literally strawmanning again, and you know it.
    Holy shit, you too? It's not a strawman to literally engage with the actual fucking argument being made. The guy said he didn't see a problem with progression from solo instances. You can already get the best rewards from the current multiplayer dungeons, why on earth would it be any different in this hypothetical?

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    I kind of disagree. We can be in the same game playing with other people but that does not necessary mean people would be doing the same thing. Ultimate Online
    I think allowed people to play as blacksmiths or other professions.

    So you could argue these players are playing solo but also playing together.



    And there lies the problem. Players puts up various barriers to bar others from joining their group. Sure, they well within their rights to do so and I do not disagree with that. But it does means some players will get excluded and will not be able to experience these elements in the game.

    Blizzard has tried to remedy this with LFR and LFD but some players object to this claiming it ruins the game. Personally, I think it just hurts their ego by not having contents exclusive to themselves.
    Ultima Online isn't the greatest example to use to compare with a game like WoW. UO was so far ahead of its time, you could do just about everything in that game without saying a word to other people. Hell, if you hated people you could even opt to play as a murderer.

    It would take longer, but you could easily have the most powerful gear in the game without teaming up with anyone, (speaking of pre UO:R or perhaps T2A eras). Sure, going into shame to fight air eles alone was more dangerous, but it was still viable (And arguably, it was other players that made it dangerous, not so much the air eles).

    This is all because UO wasn't about raiding, it got weird (and lame imo) later on, but during the eras I mentioned, the best gear came from crafting, generally speaking. There was magic gear, but the fact that you dropped all items on death and others could loot your corpse meant not everyone was running around with a xyz of vanquishing or what have you. It was very much about risk vs reward.

    WoWs a themepark. I (obviously) think the way UO worked was superior to WoW, but it wouldn't be possible to switch WoW over to a system like UO.

    Gonna stop myself there before I write a 20 page blog about how nostalgic thinking about UO makes me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    You are kinda joe Roganing this topic. Hardly have any actual knowledge other than what people have told you, and jumping into a discussion with people who have direct experience with it. Don't be Joe Rogan.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Holy shit, you too? It's not a strawman to literally engage with the actual fucking argument being made. The guy said he didn't see a problem with progression from solo instances. You can already get the best rewards from the current multiplayer dungeons, why on earth would it be any different in this hypothetical?
    Because it's not what he said, has clarified that it is not what he said, and you continue to interpret it incorrectly?

    Having Progression =/= Best Rewards. It's really that simple. Your assumption took one step too far in reading something that was never said.

    That is why it is a strawman argument. You're arguing against your own argument.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Because it's not what he said, has clarified that it is not what he said, and you continue to interpret it incorrectly?

    Having Progression =/= Best Rewards. It's really that simple. Your assumption took one step too far in reading something that was never said.

    That is why it is a strawman argument. You're arguing against your own argument.
    Yeah, pretty much. Relapses seems like a very angry person in need to cool down, so I am ignoring them. They seem not interested in real discussion, and it's probably better to leave it here. Everyone sees that we don't mean what Relapses say we mean.

    Life is too short to bother with such elements :P

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Because it's not what he said, has clarified that it is not what he said, and you continue to interpret it incorrectly?

    Having Progression =/= Best Rewards. It's really that simple. Your assumption took one step too far in reading something that was never said.

    That is why it is a strawman argument. You're arguing against your own argument.
    Lmfao oh and yeah I'm sure people will be totally fine with being hard capped at Normal raid quality gear from their solo instances. Yep, let's have Blizzard spend countless thousands of development hours making sure that group content in a video game designed to emphasize group content is able to be solo'd just so we can then cap the rewards so nobody ever bothers to engage with it. Brilliant fucking idea.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    Yeah, pretty much. Relapses seems like a very angry person in need to cool down, so I am ignoring them. They seem not interested in real discussion, and it's probably better to leave it here. Everyone sees that we don't mean what Relapses say we mean.

    Life is too short to bother with such elements :P
    Solo instances do not belong in WoW. Progression for solo players should not exist. It's good that the current game tells you to go out and group with other players for progression. This is how MMOs should work. If you're playing a MMO for solo experiences you're playing the wrong fucking game. End of.

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