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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    It's a question of implementation. If you solve this, I promise you will become a legend.

    Question is this:
    How do you equally reward a person playing solo, when 10-20 people need work together, coordinate and be very persistent. If these people would overcome bigger challenges - like a group content, they would also excel in soloplay. Assume now that you would have a tremendous skill gap between the solo and multiplayers.

    It's like saying you need to have equal pay of the sum of 10-20 people just because you are at the company.

    Any reasonable answer?
    Well, I'm for "solo progression" - that doesn't necessarily mean you can use the stuff I imagine you'd get from solo instance as effectively in, let's say, PvP. Could apply the PvP mindset but reversed. The gear you get from this solo instance is highly more effective inside there but pretty average outside.

    Anyways, I just wish there was _something_ that you could progress outside of groups but was challenging. I do like Torghast but the rewards and stuff are extremely lacking.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    I never said that. Stop strawmanning.
    I'm sorry, is there any other way to interpret you saying that you don't see an issue with getting the best rewards from single player content?

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I'm sorry, is there any other way to interpret you saying that you don't see an issue with getting the best rewards from single player content?
    "Best rewards" was never once mentioned.

    Progression merely means progression.

    Even PVP has progression, and the rewards are not considered 'Best rewards' for singleplayer content.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    So any kind of progression is now 'best rewards'?

    Give me a fucking break dude. Stop with that nonsense. You're literally strawmanning again, and you know it.
    Holy shit, you too? It's not a strawman to literally engage with the actual fucking argument being made. The guy said he didn't see a problem with progression from solo instances. You can already get the best rewards from the current multiplayer dungeons, why on earth would it be any different in this hypothetical?

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    I kind of disagree. We can be in the same game playing with other people but that does not necessary mean people would be doing the same thing. Ultimate Online
    I think allowed people to play as blacksmiths or other professions.

    So you could argue these players are playing solo but also playing together.



    And there lies the problem. Players puts up various barriers to bar others from joining their group. Sure, they well within their rights to do so and I do not disagree with that. But it does means some players will get excluded and will not be able to experience these elements in the game.

    Blizzard has tried to remedy this with LFR and LFD but some players object to this claiming it ruins the game. Personally, I think it just hurts their ego by not having contents exclusive to themselves.
    Ultima Online isn't the greatest example to use to compare with a game like WoW. UO was so far ahead of its time, you could do just about everything in that game without saying a word to other people. Hell, if you hated people you could even opt to play as a murderer.

    It would take longer, but you could easily have the most powerful gear in the game without teaming up with anyone, (speaking of pre UO:R or perhaps T2A eras). Sure, going into shame to fight air eles alone was more dangerous, but it was still viable (And arguably, it was other players that made it dangerous, not so much the air eles).

    This is all because UO wasn't about raiding, it got weird (and lame imo) later on, but during the eras I mentioned, the best gear came from crafting, generally speaking. There was magic gear, but the fact that you dropped all items on death and others could loot your corpse meant not everyone was running around with a xyz of vanquishing or what have you. It was very much about risk vs reward.

    WoWs a themepark. I (obviously) think the way UO worked was superior to WoW, but it wouldn't be possible to switch WoW over to a system like UO.

    Gonna stop myself there before I write a 20 page blog about how nostalgic thinking about UO makes me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    You are kinda joe Roganing this topic. Hardly have any actual knowledge other than what people have told you, and jumping into a discussion with people who have direct experience with it. Don't be Joe Rogan.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Holy shit, you too? It's not a strawman to literally engage with the actual fucking argument being made. The guy said he didn't see a problem with progression from solo instances. You can already get the best rewards from the current multiplayer dungeons, why on earth would it be any different in this hypothetical?
    Because it's not what he said, has clarified that it is not what he said, and you continue to interpret it incorrectly?

    Having Progression =/= Best Rewards. It's really that simple. Your assumption took one step too far in reading something that was never said.

    That is why it is a strawman argument. You're arguing against your own argument.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Because it's not what he said, has clarified that it is not what he said, and you continue to interpret it incorrectly?

    Having Progression =/= Best Rewards. It's really that simple. Your assumption took one step too far in reading something that was never said.

    That is why it is a strawman argument. You're arguing against your own argument.
    Yeah, pretty much. Relapses seems like a very angry person in need to cool down, so I am ignoring them. They seem not interested in real discussion, and it's probably better to leave it here. Everyone sees that we don't mean what Relapses say we mean.

    Life is too short to bother with such elements :P

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Because it's not what he said, has clarified that it is not what he said, and you continue to interpret it incorrectly?

    Having Progression =/= Best Rewards. It's really that simple. Your assumption took one step too far in reading something that was never said.

    That is why it is a strawman argument. You're arguing against your own argument.
    Lmfao oh and yeah I'm sure people will be totally fine with being hard capped at Normal raid quality gear from their solo instances. Yep, let's have Blizzard spend countless thousands of development hours making sure that group content in a video game designed to emphasize group content is able to be solo'd just so we can then cap the rewards so nobody ever bothers to engage with it. Brilliant fucking idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    Yeah, pretty much. Relapses seems like a very angry person in need to cool down, so I am ignoring them. They seem not interested in real discussion, and it's probably better to leave it here. Everyone sees that we don't mean what Relapses say we mean.

    Life is too short to bother with such elements :P
    Solo instances do not belong in WoW. Progression for solo players should not exist. It's good that the current game tells you to go out and group with other players for progression. This is how MMOs should work. If you're playing a MMO for solo experiences you're playing the wrong fucking game. End of.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    100% wrong.

    MMO is a term, used back when the companies would state/market, that you need internet connection and you could play with random people. It was exclusive back then to have a relaible Internet connection.

    With your definition, you are technically on MMO platform, the second you log on Steam/Bnet before lunching a game.

    The game is defined by the devs. They would had implementet Minecraft version of WoW, if they saw the need. The audiance is not there - and you need find another game.
    No, I want by the dictionary definition. ANd the audiernce is not there? Then why are they putting solo content in there at all? The fact is the audience is there. Also, youa re not the arbiter of what should be in the game, so I will continue to request Blizzard put more solo content in and play the solo content already in game. Don't like it? Tough. Don't tell other people what to do. It's not your game at all.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Lmfao oh and yeah I'm sure people will be totally fine with being hard capped at Normal raid quality gear from their solo instances. Yep, let's have Blizzard spend countless thousands of development hours making sure that group content in a video game designed to emphasize group content is able to be solo'd just so we can then cap the rewards so nobody ever bothers to engage with it. Brilliant fucking idea.
    There are people who are perfectly happy that Battle Pets exists. Does it mean they need Mythic gear rewards to have content that suits their playstyle?

    Again, strawman dude. Stop beating it. The only one making your 'brilliant fucking idea' is you. You are your own worst enemy here.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    I'd love if there was a "solo mode" for instances. As in, balanced mechanically for a single player.
    I'd love this. 10/10 would stay subbed for it. Scale down or remove the gear, wouldn't care. Bonus points if the mechanics were the same as in grouped allowing people to use this to practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    You are kinda joe Roganing this topic. Hardly have any actual knowledge other than what people have told you, and jumping into a discussion with people who have direct experience with it. Don't be Joe Rogan.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    I don't see why there should be any restriction like that at all. But I guess you're one of those against anyone except Heroic/Mythic raiders should get any kind of progression.
    NO I am not. You haven't read my posts at all. IF you want it to reward gear, it then needs to be a lower level than normal dungeons because you do that with 5 players vs one. If you reward equal or better gear at the same rate, nobody will do 5 man dungeons when you can do a solo dungeon instead. Creating content that invalidates other content is bad design. It would be a waste of time to create solo dungeons if it is going to make normal dungeons irrelevant.

    You are just one that wants equal reward for less effort. My way rewards appropriate gear for the amount of effort.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    I'm not dictating, I'm observing. That was very clear in what I wrote. Strange that you want to pretend otherwise.
    NO you are dictating. You are literally telling people to play another game and to leave your MMO alone. Don't try to spin what you said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    I can socialize with my family and friends in real life. I can relax watching a movie. I can get a great story from a good book. I can immerse myself in much better and more fitted single player games. But you know what I can't get anywhere else? Playing a game where I kill a dragon with 20 other people. This is why I come to mmos. Maybe it's you who has too much time on their hands, can't find better experiences and human interaction outside and focuses on one game alone for all their needs and wastes the core potential and designation of mmos.
    OH yeah, mindlessly killiing creatures in silence is so much fun.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    There are people who are perfectly happy that Battle Pets exists. Does it mean they need Mythic gear rewards to have content that suits their playstyle?

    Again, strawman dude. Stop beating it. The only one making your 'brilliant fucking idea' is you. You are your own worst enemy here.
    Battle pets are in no way shape or form equivalent to the amount of developer time which would be required to create a solo dungeon experience. There is no world where Blizzard would add a feature to the game that would require the level of development which solo dungeons necessitates where they simply let the rewards suck ass so nobody engages with it.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Battle pets are in no way shape or form equivalent to the amount of developer time which would be required to create a solo dungeon experience. There is no world where Blizzard would add a feature to the game that would require the level of development which solo dungeons necessitates where they simply let the rewards suck ass so nobody engages with it.
    You mean like Mage Tower? Or Brawler's Guild?

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Is it reasonable though? That's the question I have. One of MMOs primary features is the ability (if not requirement) to interact with other actual people which is mostly through group content.

    To ask for more SP content when one of the primary focuses of a MMOs is group content seems out of scope.

    And to see how "reasonable" it can be, look at it from the inverse... In a Single Player RPG (say the Elden Ring), is it reasonable to ask the developers for more GROUP content? Like Raids or Dungeons where you need a group of players to overcome that content?
    It's perfectly reasonable to ask for whatever content anyone wants. I could ask that the only way to get gear at all be done exclusively through mythic raids and it would still be reasonable to ask for it if completely unlikely. I could ask the devs of Elden Ring to consider adding group raids and yeah, it would be a completely reasonable request. One they would be free to deny and simply say it did not fit their vision for the game, or even to just flat out ignore. (Though ignoring requests does mean one might see it repeated)

    There's nothing unreasonable about asking for any kind of content. Demanding yes, that can be unreasonable. But asking? nah.

    IMO? Blizzard should just make a decision regarding solo play and how much they want it to be a part of their game, and then reinforce that stance. It can change in the future, and that's fine, but a dev team that is clear on what they want their game to be about, regardless of what that is, has some of my respect at the very least.

    In the DF interviews they mentioned (I believe) that they wanted to expand more on the solo player experience. So naturally, solo players are going to have an opinion on what defines that experience. In my personal opinion, I don't think blizzards vision of the solo experience is in line with what the average solo players wants (and lets be real, take any 3 solo players, stick em in a room and they'll argue over what solo even means), but they have shown interest in the solo player, and for as long as they make that claim solo players giving feedback on it is entirely reasonable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ONCHEhap View Post
    Then you've been lied to about FFXIV. It's literally the only mainstream MMO out there that straight up forces you to play with other people to even see the story. There's this weird romanisation of that game as a perfect solo game when you can't access the story, the expansions or pretty much anything past lv 20 without having to clear dungeons, trials (single boss instances) and alliance raids (24 man raids) with other players
    When people refer to FF14 as "great for solo gamers" I am pretty sure they're really talking about people who include queued content in their definition of solo. (Why they don't say queued instead of solo I don't know, but at least if you consider queued content the sentence makes sense)
    Last edited by AcidicSyn; 2022-08-10 at 08:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    You are kinda joe Roganing this topic. Hardly have any actual knowledge other than what people have told you, and jumping into a discussion with people who have direct experience with it. Don't be Joe Rogan.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You mean like Mage Tower? Or Brawler's Guild?
    People do engage with Mage Tower but even then its rewards are cosmetic by design. Brawler's Guild has fallen by the wayside but mostly because they stopped updating it. And even then, neither of these features requires the level of development that a solo dungeoning would necessitate. I think Blizzard is better off not spending those development hours on something designed for anti-social people who forgot that WoW is a MMO and instead continue developing the group content for which the game has couched its entire reputation.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    No, I want by the dictionary definition. ANd the audiernce is not there? Then why are they putting solo content in there at all? The fact is the audience is there. Also, youa re not the arbiter of what should be in the game, so I will continue to request Blizzard put more solo content in and play the solo content already in game. Don't like it? Tough. Don't tell other people what to do. It's not your game at all.
    There is NO NEED for soloplay.

    One of the biggest companies in the industry, would had implemented more soloprogression, IF there was a need.

    They got ALL the data. They would do it, without you asking for it, if they could get more people to play and stay.

    Once again - they know their target audience. They do research.

    Do you understand?

    So no sologames, no easy rewards. It worked for almost 20 years now.
    Last edited by HansOlo; 2022-08-10 at 08:02 PM.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    People do engage with Mage Tower but even then its rewards are cosmetic by design. Brawler's Guild has fallen by the wayside but mostly because they stopped updating it. And even then, neither of these features requires the level of development that a solo dungeoning would necessitate. I think Blizzard is better off not spending those development hours on something designed for anti-social people who forgot that WoW is a MMO and instead continue developing the group content for which the game has couched its entire reputation.
    Right, which means there is a general lack of single-player oriented progression content. And this has nothing to do with Blizzard not putting effort into developing it, since we are seeing many things return in various forms in respect to solo-viable content.

    Even an increase of focus on Professions is a direct appeal to solo-oriented content, something which has been left to the wayside for far too long. There's nothing in the way of dictating what their development would be better spent on, because content is literally whatever people choose to consume not simply what Blizzard provides. Like the majority of PVP oriented content is not going to be seen as 'meaningful content' to those who do not PVP. It doesn't mean Blizzard should just give up making new PVP seasons and rewards and PVP talent balancing just because of one man's opinion that PVE Group Content is where all end-game development should be focused on.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    NO I am not. You haven't read my posts at all. IF you want it to reward gear, it then needs to be a lower level than normal dungeons because you do that with 5 players vs one. If you reward equal or better gear at the same rate, nobody will do 5 man dungeons when you can do a solo dungeon instead. Creating content that invalidates other content is bad design. It would be a waste of time to create solo dungeons if it is going to make normal dungeons irrelevant.

    You are just one that wants equal reward for less effort. My way rewards appropriate gear for the amount of effort.
    Explain what I have said that would lead to less effort? What is effort in your eyes? Many people?

    Let me ask a question:
    If someone solos a current tier heroic raid boss, should that person stand without any reward out of principle because it's less effort in your eyes to solo stuff?

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Right, which means there is a general lack of single-player oriented progression content. And this has nothing to do with Blizzard not putting effort into developing it, since we are seeing many things return in various forms in respect to solo-viable content.

    Even an increase of focus on Professions is a direct appeal to solo-oriented content, something which has been left to the wayside for far too long. There's nothing in the way of dictating what their development would be better spent on, because content is literally whatever people choose to consume not simply what Blizzard provides. Like the majority of PVP oriented content is not going to be seen as 'meaningful content' to those who do not PVP. It doesn't mean Blizzard should just give up making new PVP seasons and rewards and PVP talent balancing just because of one man's opinion that PVE Group Content is where all end-game development should be focused on.
    I'm not going to disagree and say that WoW can't have more meaningful solo player content, I just do not believe that this type of content should have a progression system. (I mean, fuck, the current ZM system that's already in the game is too far, imo.) That was what I took issue with in my first reply on this comment chain. The current game encourages players to get out and play in groups to progress their gear -- this good; anything which encourages the opposite (solo dungeons) -- especially the types of systems that would require quite a bit of development time -- is 100% not the direction I think this game needs to go.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2022-08-10 at 08:55 PM.

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