There needs to be more single player content

[Relapses]

I'm all for you sharing your opinion on the matter, but honestly the point that Voidism was making was very far from having 'Best Rewards' applied to Solo content. It's not even a part of the conversation being had.

It is the natural conclusion for the argument though. Players won't be happy with mediocre rewards. Devs won't be happy if they invest a bunch of time into a system that nobody engages with because it doesn't have good rewards. The whole argument in favor of more appealing solo content rewards is, imo, at odds with the purpose of what a MMO should encourage. Instead of telling people to get into groups (like the game does currently), it's giving up and saying, "yeah we get it, you don't want to interact with people...here's a system designed for you." It also can (and will, like shown in the examples of my previous post) cannibalize the existing demographic of players in group content, making it that much hard to find groups. I'd much prefer players who think this game should have systems like this give up and play different games than constantly bombard Blizzard with suggestions that make the game more anti-social.

[Triceron]

It is the natural conclusion for the argument though. Players won't be happy with mediocre rewards. Devs won't be happy if they invest a bunch of time into a system that nobody engages with because it doesn't have good rewards. The whole argument in favor of more appealing solo content rewards is, imo, at odds with the purpose of what a MMO should encourage. Instead of telling people to get into groups (like the game does currently), it's giving up and saying, "yeah we get it, you don't want to interact with people...here's a system designed for you." It also can (and will, like shown in the examples of my previous post) cannibalize the existing demographic of players in group content, making it that much hard to find groups. I'd much prefer players who think this game should have systems like this give up and play different games than constantly bombard Blizzard with suggestions that make the game more anti-social.

I get your sentiment but your opinions lack and evidence to back it up.

LFR has mediocre rewards and doesn't make everyone happy. Devs still pour effort making LFR tier rewards and tuning fights to make sure they are 'LFR viable'. I don't think anyone has the data on LFR engagement to make a cold hard judgement call on whether people are engaging with the content or merely using it as a 'stepping stone' to something else.

LFR can be argued as cannabalizing the existing demographic of players. LFR can be argued as a system that gets in the way of improving Normal+ group-finding.

Now, would you say LFR is not worth the effort to be developed on, and should be removed because the Devs shouldn't be wasting their time? Whether your opinion is for or against, it's clear that there's a disparity between opinion and reality, because LFR still exists today despite the reasons which we're discussing as being 'problematic' to the greater whole.

No matter what content we're talking about, if it's not end-game group content, it can be argued as 'cannabalizing' the existing demographic. You can take this argument to absurd extremes, because there's nothing really tangible here to discuss. The existing demographic doesn't just comprise of group-oriented players. The majority of the player base doesn't even stay subbed over the 2-year course of an expansion. What we're talking about here is an incredibly niche cross-section of the multiplayer-oriented player base and regarding them as 'the existing demographic' because there's literally no other end-game content to keep anyone else around.

You have multiplayer-oriented PVEers who stick around for the end game, and you have PVPers. Everyone else just subs casually doing their own shit, or literally unsubs. And the sad fact is the majority of WoW's audience is unsubbed. They will come back in droves for Dragonflight, and leave again once their solo leveling experience is done with. Rinse and repeat. Fans like these have no care in the world for ilvls and 'best rewards'. They only care that there is content for them to consume, which comes far too infrequently past the leveling experience.

[VMSmith]

Yeah, pretty much. Relapses seems like a very angry person in need to cool down, so I am ignoring them. They seem not interested in real discussion, and it's probably better to leave it here. Everyone sees that we don't mean what Relapses say we mean.

Life is too short to bother with such elements :P

I literally said, in a thread, that I want fewer gear rewards as a goal and more intrinsic rewards (i.e. the content being "fun", for it's own sake) and he insisted that I wanted BiS gear for world quests. I mean, I say I want less gear and he claims I said I want more gear? Dude's so dishonest, I don't know why anyone engages with him after one conversation with him.

[rrayy]

Explain what I have said that would lead to less effort? What is effort in your eyes? Many people?

Let me ask a question:
If someone solos a current tier heroic raid boss, should that person stand without any reward out of principle because it's less effort in your eyes to solo stuff?

It is not possible for one person to solo a current tier heroic raid boss. Go in and try for yourself. I mean if you were somehow able to sol it, you should get the rewards that drop for the group. But since it is impossible, it does not matter. Biut it is absolutely hilarious tha one thinks one player should get heroic raid gear for killing the game boss that is severely scaled down to even be soloable to begin with.

Let me ask you a question? Would you do a heroic raid when the solo dungeon is giving you equal heroic raid loot? If you answer honestly, you won't say yes.

- - - Updated - - -

There is NO NEED for soloplay.

One of the biggest companies in the industry, would had implemented more soloprogression, IF there was a need.

They got ALL the data. They would do it, without you asking for it, if they could get more people to play and stay.

Once again - they know their target audience. They do research.

Do you understand?

So no sologames, no easy rewards. It worked for almost 20 years now.

There has been solo play. You actually can progress your toons playing solo. Did you play ZF at all. Did you try the cyphers? Also, did you miss when people are complaining about all the epics being given out like candy and calling it "welfare gear". Have you done Torghast? There are easy rewards. There is progression. My main is at 270 without stepping into a raid. Don't sit there and tell me their is no solo play progression. I am doing it right now.

To say there is no soloplay progression is you lying. The fact that there is and they continue to provide it tells me they know they have an audience for it. We are just asking to provide them more.

Since you are going to lie and argue in bad faith. We are done.

- - - Updated - - -

People do engage with Mage Tower but even then its rewards are cosmetic by design. Brawler's Guild has fallen by the wayside but mostly because they stopped updating it. And even then, neither of these features requires the level of development that a solo dungeoning would necessitate. I think Blizzard is better off not spending those development hours on something designed for anti-social people who forgot that WoW is a MMO and instead continue developing the group content for which the game has couched its entire reputation.

Nice job insulting people. It seems you have forgotten what MMO actually means. It does not refer to a specific form of content. A great game sapends time on ALL types of content, not just what you and only you wants.

ALso people preferring solo content does not make them anti-social. You don't know them and for all you know, they have been social all day and just want some alone time in game. OF course they likely also want to get away from the toxicity that you are spewing.

[Relapses]

Nice job insulting people. It seems you have forgotten what MMO actually means. It does not refer to a specific form of content. A great game sapends time on ALL types of content, not just what you and only you wants.

I want WoW to be a roller coaster simulator. Or a FPS. Or a MOBA. Or a Survival Horror game. Or a Gacha game. Or a Trading Card Game. Or a {insert literally any game here}.

Using your backwards logic, this is no less unreasonable than wanting WoW to be a single player game. If you want more single player content (with progression systems) you want something WoW was never intended to be. You are playing the wrong game. Full stop. End of story.

ALso people preferring solo content does not make them anti-social. You don't know them and for all you know, they have been social all day and just want some alone time in game. OF course they likely also want to get away from the toxicity that you are spewing.

They can spend all the alone time they want in any of the millions single player games out there.

[Voidism]

It is not possible for one person to solo a current tier heroic raid boss. Go in and try for yourself. I mean if you were somehow able to sol it, you should get the rewards that drop for the group. But since it is impossible, it does not matter. Biut it is absolutely hilarious tha one thinks one player should get heroic raid gear for killing the game boss that is severely scaled down to even be soloable to begin with.

Let me ask you a question? Would you do a heroic raid when the solo dungeon is giving you equal heroic raid loot? If you answer honestly, you won't say yes.

Uh, sure mate. That's obviously not what my point is. I see you, with Relapses, are also angry and only here to argue. Welcome to ignore.

[loras]

And not just world quests and dailies, but rather, meaningful and challenging content that can progress your character through out the entirety of a season.

I envision a solo end game content experience, much like Monster Hunter or Dark Souls/Elden Ring.

As it stands, there is currently very little reason to log on, outside your weekly m+/raid times. There is just nothing to do.

Torghast tried this, but managed to just be a worse version of horrofic visions in both execution and rewards.

Which is not to say i don't support the idea; i shouldn't be required to navigate whatever bullshit the playerbase has cooked/cocked up to play the game, between rating and achievement requirements to little sods thinking their opinion on my build should matter even a whiff.

Solo content is in that sense the backbone, the fallback-option for whenever the community fucks up, rather than the devs.

[Lolites]

Then maybe, just maybe, the top end tier group content is the problem and should be made more appealing.

people will rather level through way thats faster than through the one they enjoy, you think it will be different at endgame?
most people will choose whatever is most effective, not whats most appealing

[Celement]

Torghast tried this, but managed to just be a worse version of horrofic visions in both execution and rewards.

Which is not to say i don't support the idea; i shouldn't be required to navigate whatever bullshit the playerbase has cooked/cocked up to play the game, between rating and achievement requirements to little sods thinking their opinion on my build should matter even a whiff.

Solo content is in that sense the backbone, the fallback-option for whenever the community fucks up, rather than the devs.

Or you could fuck off to a single player game? Who the hell joins a team based game and thinks that they can do whatever they want at the expense of everyone else?

Why are you even here? In chess you can't move pieces anyway you like because bishop's are op bs and you really wanna spec pawns.

[Lathspell]

Torghast tried this, but managed to just be a worse version of horrofic visions in both execution and rewards.

Which is not to say i don't support the idea; i shouldn't be required to navigate whatever bullshit the playerbase has cooked/cocked up to play the game, between rating and achievement requirements to little sods thinking their opinion on my build should matter even a whiff.

Solo content is in that sense the backbone, the fallback-option for whenever the community fucks up, rather than the devs.

Torghast could have been way more fun than Visions if it had some more meaningful rewards and more interesting difficulty. I did Visions for the loot and mount/title. I didn't really enjoy them that much though, it was boring to run the same thing over and over, week after week.

If they had the infinite levels one that saved your progress and you got better gear the higher you climbed it would have been great.

[rrayy]

Uh, sure mate. That's obviously not what my point is. I see you, with Relapses, are also angry and only here to argue. Welcome to ignore.

Translation: I am not willing to answer the question posed because I know it would kill my argument dead.

Seems you are here to push a narrative and don't want debate but an echo chamber. Ignore it is.

[Celement]

Translation: I am not willing to answer the question posed because I know it would kill my argument dead.

Seems you are here to push a narrative and don't want debate but an echo chamber. Ignore it is.

Devils advocate. There have been a few times heroic raid bosses have been soloed. Usually from a oversight of not having a hard enrage timer or mechanics dangerous to an overgeared tank.

Fel reaver comes to mind. That doesn't really add or take away from your point I'm just bored at work.

[Alydael]

And not just world quests and dailies, but rather, meaningful and challenging content that can progress your character through out the entirety of a season.

I envision a solo end game content experience, much like Monster Hunter or Dark Souls/Elden Ring.

As it stands, there is currently very little reason to log on, outside your weekly m+/raid times. There is just nothing to do.

I do agree with you in principle. Most players in this game are solo players (look at the raid/ m+/ pvp completion rates, all sub 30%), roughly 70% or basically solo "ish" type players. If I was a Dev, that wanted a successful game, I would design the content for the majority of the player base.

Based on that principle- there needs to be a ton more solo content. I would say content is 75% group 25% solo (roughly) that should be reversed based on player completion rates in content.

However, the Devs have been consistent and clear on one thing: Azeroth is for meeting up and playing adventures with your friends. It is the design principle behind the game. I think it was envisioned as sort of a virtual "D n D," which is played in a group.

The game has always been a war between those two principles. Personally, I think they should stick with the group thing. They just need to find ways to make it more accesable and equitable (its not at all right now- there is a lot of work to be done).

My first suggestion is a very easy one- allow people to individually que for the bosses in the raid at any level (sort of like FF). Just even a small step like that would make it a ton more accesable. Beating the boss should be the challenge- not actually making a group. Finding the group should never be the challenge in the game if you are a group focused game. It is in WoW though (and has been- the boosting is just a symptom of it), they really need to fix that if they want grouping to be the focus. That's the real issue.

[HansOlo]

Translation: I am not willing to answer the question posed because I know it would kill my argument dead.

Seems you are here to push a narrative and don't want debate but an echo chamber. Ignore it is.

I do agree with you in principle. Most players in this game are solo players (look at the raid/ m+/ pvp completion rates, all sub 30%), roughly 70% or basically solo "ish" type players. If I was a Dev, that wanted a successful game, I would design the content for the majority of the player base.

Based on that principle- there needs to be a ton more solo content. I would say content is 75% group 25% solo (roughly) that should be reversed based on player completion rates in content.

However, the Devs have been consistent and clear on one thing: Azeroth is for meeting up and playing adventures with your friends. It is the design principle behind the game. I think it was envisioned as sort of a virtual "D n D," which is played in a group.

The game has always been a war between those two principles. Personally, I think they should stick with the group thing. They just need to find ways to make it more accesable and equitable (its not at all right now- there is a lot of work to be done).

My first suggestion is a very easy one- allow people to individually que for the bosses in the raid at any level (sort of like FF). Just even a small step like that would make it a ton more accesable. Beating the boss should be the challenge- not actually making a group. Finding the group should never be the challenge in the game if you are a group focused game. It is in WoW though (and has been- the boosting is just a symptom of it), they really need to fix that if they want grouping to be the focus. That's the real issue.

People who are asking for more EXCLUSIVE solocontent or soloprogression - is deemed flakey and useless by Blizzard(they just won't invest in you - and I personally can't blame them).

And because you are egocentric/subjective - you don't reliaze the problems you are creating:

1)How do you design a badguy - do you put him in a Magetower and write a story around him(i.e the Jailor)? Everybody is a hero - killing a badguy solo - is that the narrative? How does it fit the game?

2)How do you deal with rewardsystem?
People solo should access the same gear as raiders(you know - people who need to play a much harder game - with higher skill and social requirements).

How do you deal with gearing - which is the most essential part of the game?

3)How does this affect the social atmosphere of the game(i.e everybody is in magetowers, torghasts etc.). WoD got critizied for killing the atmosphere, as everybody where in thier garrison - how do you avoid this problem again?

You see - I think one of the biggest companies in the industry - researchs thier audiance(and they have the data - they know what people spends time on). They would implement anything, before you even would ask - as long as they would make people play and stay.

Whatever we don't have ingame - it's a strategic choice from the devs. Not because of it was mistake.

[Hitei]

Based on that principle- there needs to be a ton more solo content. I would say content is 75% group 25% solo (roughly) that should be reversed based on player completion rates in content.

How are you getting 75% group content? The majority of content in the game, added in every expansion, and in every patch is solo content. It is literally just PvP (something that rarely gets additions), raids, and dungeons.

[Kazlofski]

It needs more content like Visions, it's group content but can also be played and finished as single.

[Otimus]

All I want is stuff I can queue for and make meaningful progress on my character. This hasn't existed since MoP. MoP was awesome for being something most anyone had an avenue to enjoy in.

What bugs the hell out of me is that people will call queueing for stuff single player content.

[Relapses]

It needs more content like Visions, it's group content but can also be played and finished as single.

Despite my general reservations on solo content, I'm okay with something like Visions becoming a permanent fixture. Its rewards, despite going up to near-Mythic level, were not plentiful enough to have a hugely negative impact on any of the other group content in the game and it felt good to go in and blast it away on each of my alts. Just get rid of the currency grind to enter and I'd love to see something like that added. (Torghast was close but they went about its reward system entirely the wrong way, imo.)

[rrayy]

People who are asking for more EXCLUSIVE solocontent or soloprogression - is deemed flakey and useless by Blizzard(they just won't invest in you - and I personally can't blame them).

They never said that. If they really thought that there would be no solo content at all. They never would have allowed Torghast to be soloable.

And because you are egocentric/subjective - you don't reliaze the problems you are creating:

Talk about being insulting and condescending. Name calling makes people take you less seriously.

1)How do you design a badguy - do you put him in a Magetower and write a story around him(i.e the Jailor)? Everybody is a hero - killing a badguy solo - is that the narrative? How does it fit the game?

Do it just like Torghast and the Mage Tower. Who says there has to be one bad guy or the same bad guy as the raids?

2)How do you deal with rewardsystem?
People solo should access the same gear as raiders(you know - people who need to play a much harder game - with higher skill and social requirements).

Nobody ever said solo players should have access to raid gear. Stop with that dishonest strrawman.

How do you deal with gearing - which is the most essential part of the game?

Give it normal raid gear, but at a lesser pace. This isn't hard.

3)How does this affect the social atmosphere of the game(i.e everybody is in magetowers, torghasts etc.). WoD got critizied for killing the atmosphere, as everybody where in thier garrison - how do you avoid this problem again?

Raiders are still going to raid. M+ players are still going to do that. Those doing solo content were never doing the previous two to being with so it has no effect on the social aspect. Torghast certainly didn't.

You see - I think one of the biggest companies in the industry - researchs thier audiance(and they have the data - they know what people spends time on). They would implement anything, before you even would ask - as long as they would make people play and stay.

Which is why they do things like Mage Tower and Torgahst. If they look at solo play the way you claim they do, neither one would have been soloable. They would have required a group. The fact that there is solo content already in the game says they know that there is a market for it.

Whatever we don't have ingame - it's a strategic choice from the devs. Not because of it was mistake.

Doesn't mean they were right. It can still be a mistake. They aren't mutually exclusive.

[Relapses]

All I want is stuff I can queue for and make meaningful progress on my character. This hasn't existed since MoP. MoP was awesome for being something most anyone had an avenue to enjoy in.

What bugs the hell out of me is that people will call queueing for stuff single player content.

Wha...? Are you referring to Scenarios? You'd only ever run them to grind VP. The gear was item level 516 which was roughly ToT Normal mode equivalent (SoO LFR was higher item level).