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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    100% wrong.

    MMO is a term, used back when the companies would state/market, that you need internet connection and you could play with random people. It was exclusive back then to have a relaible Internet connection.

    With your definition, you are technically on MMO platform, the second you log on Steam/Bnet before lunching a game.

    The game is defined by the devs. They would had implementet Minecraft version of WoW, if they saw the need. The audiance is not there - and you need find another game.
    No, I want by the dictionary definition. ANd the audiernce is not there? Then why are they putting solo content in there at all? The fact is the audience is there. Also, youa re not the arbiter of what should be in the game, so I will continue to request Blizzard put more solo content in and play the solo content already in game. Don't like it? Tough. Don't tell other people what to do. It's not your game at all.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Lmfao oh and yeah I'm sure people will be totally fine with being hard capped at Normal raid quality gear from their solo instances. Yep, let's have Blizzard spend countless thousands of development hours making sure that group content in a video game designed to emphasize group content is able to be solo'd just so we can then cap the rewards so nobody ever bothers to engage with it. Brilliant fucking idea.
    There are people who are perfectly happy that Battle Pets exists. Does it mean they need Mythic gear rewards to have content that suits their playstyle?

    Again, strawman dude. Stop beating it. The only one making your 'brilliant fucking idea' is you. You are your own worst enemy here.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    I'd love if there was a "solo mode" for instances. As in, balanced mechanically for a single player.
    I'd love this. 10/10 would stay subbed for it. Scale down or remove the gear, wouldn't care. Bonus points if the mechanics were the same as in grouped allowing people to use this to practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    You are kinda joe Roganing this topic. Hardly have any actual knowledge other than what people have told you, and jumping into a discussion with people who have direct experience with it. Don't be Joe Rogan.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    I don't see why there should be any restriction like that at all. But I guess you're one of those against anyone except Heroic/Mythic raiders should get any kind of progression.
    NO I am not. You haven't read my posts at all. IF you want it to reward gear, it then needs to be a lower level than normal dungeons because you do that with 5 players vs one. If you reward equal or better gear at the same rate, nobody will do 5 man dungeons when you can do a solo dungeon instead. Creating content that invalidates other content is bad design. It would be a waste of time to create solo dungeons if it is going to make normal dungeons irrelevant.

    You are just one that wants equal reward for less effort. My way rewards appropriate gear for the amount of effort.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    I'm not dictating, I'm observing. That was very clear in what I wrote. Strange that you want to pretend otherwise.
    NO you are dictating. You are literally telling people to play another game and to leave your MMO alone. Don't try to spin what you said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    I can socialize with my family and friends in real life. I can relax watching a movie. I can get a great story from a good book. I can immerse myself in much better and more fitted single player games. But you know what I can't get anywhere else? Playing a game where I kill a dragon with 20 other people. This is why I come to mmos. Maybe it's you who has too much time on their hands, can't find better experiences and human interaction outside and focuses on one game alone for all their needs and wastes the core potential and designation of mmos.
    OH yeah, mindlessly killiing creatures in silence is so much fun.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    There are people who are perfectly happy that Battle Pets exists. Does it mean they need Mythic gear rewards to have content that suits their playstyle?

    Again, strawman dude. Stop beating it. The only one making your 'brilliant fucking idea' is you. You are your own worst enemy here.
    Battle pets are in no way shape or form equivalent to the amount of developer time which would be required to create a solo dungeon experience. There is no world where Blizzard would add a feature to the game that would require the level of development which solo dungeons necessitates where they simply let the rewards suck ass so nobody engages with it.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Battle pets are in no way shape or form equivalent to the amount of developer time which would be required to create a solo dungeon experience. There is no world where Blizzard would add a feature to the game that would require the level of development which solo dungeons necessitates where they simply let the rewards suck ass so nobody engages with it.
    You mean like Mage Tower? Or Brawler's Guild?

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Is it reasonable though? That's the question I have. One of MMOs primary features is the ability (if not requirement) to interact with other actual people which is mostly through group content.

    To ask for more SP content when one of the primary focuses of a MMOs is group content seems out of scope.

    And to see how "reasonable" it can be, look at it from the inverse... In a Single Player RPG (say the Elden Ring), is it reasonable to ask the developers for more GROUP content? Like Raids or Dungeons where you need a group of players to overcome that content?
    It's perfectly reasonable to ask for whatever content anyone wants. I could ask that the only way to get gear at all be done exclusively through mythic raids and it would still be reasonable to ask for it if completely unlikely. I could ask the devs of Elden Ring to consider adding group raids and yeah, it would be a completely reasonable request. One they would be free to deny and simply say it did not fit their vision for the game, or even to just flat out ignore. (Though ignoring requests does mean one might see it repeated)

    There's nothing unreasonable about asking for any kind of content. Demanding yes, that can be unreasonable. But asking? nah.

    IMO? Blizzard should just make a decision regarding solo play and how much they want it to be a part of their game, and then reinforce that stance. It can change in the future, and that's fine, but a dev team that is clear on what they want their game to be about, regardless of what that is, has some of my respect at the very least.

    In the DF interviews they mentioned (I believe) that they wanted to expand more on the solo player experience. So naturally, solo players are going to have an opinion on what defines that experience. In my personal opinion, I don't think blizzards vision of the solo experience is in line with what the average solo players wants (and lets be real, take any 3 solo players, stick em in a room and they'll argue over what solo even means), but they have shown interest in the solo player, and for as long as they make that claim solo players giving feedback on it is entirely reasonable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ONCHEhap View Post
    Then you've been lied to about FFXIV. It's literally the only mainstream MMO out there that straight up forces you to play with other people to even see the story. There's this weird romanisation of that game as a perfect solo game when you can't access the story, the expansions or pretty much anything past lv 20 without having to clear dungeons, trials (single boss instances) and alliance raids (24 man raids) with other players
    When people refer to FF14 as "great for solo gamers" I am pretty sure they're really talking about people who include queued content in their definition of solo. (Why they don't say queued instead of solo I don't know, but at least if you consider queued content the sentence makes sense)
    Last edited by AcidicSyn; 2022-08-10 at 08:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    You are kinda joe Roganing this topic. Hardly have any actual knowledge other than what people have told you, and jumping into a discussion with people who have direct experience with it. Don't be Joe Rogan.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You mean like Mage Tower? Or Brawler's Guild?
    People do engage with Mage Tower but even then its rewards are cosmetic by design. Brawler's Guild has fallen by the wayside but mostly because they stopped updating it. And even then, neither of these features requires the level of development that a solo dungeoning would necessitate. I think Blizzard is better off not spending those development hours on something designed for anti-social people who forgot that WoW is a MMO and instead continue developing the group content for which the game has couched its entire reputation.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    No, I want by the dictionary definition. ANd the audiernce is not there? Then why are they putting solo content in there at all? The fact is the audience is there. Also, youa re not the arbiter of what should be in the game, so I will continue to request Blizzard put more solo content in and play the solo content already in game. Don't like it? Tough. Don't tell other people what to do. It's not your game at all.
    There is NO NEED for soloplay.

    One of the biggest companies in the industry, would had implemented more soloprogression, IF there was a need.

    They got ALL the data. They would do it, without you asking for it, if they could get more people to play and stay.

    Once again - they know their target audience. They do research.

    Do you understand?

    So no sologames, no easy rewards. It worked for almost 20 years now.
    Last edited by HansOlo; 2022-08-10 at 08:02 PM.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    People do engage with Mage Tower but even then its rewards are cosmetic by design. Brawler's Guild has fallen by the wayside but mostly because they stopped updating it. And even then, neither of these features requires the level of development that a solo dungeoning would necessitate. I think Blizzard is better off not spending those development hours on something designed for anti-social people who forgot that WoW is a MMO and instead continue developing the group content for which the game has couched its entire reputation.
    Right, which means there is a general lack of single-player oriented progression content. And this has nothing to do with Blizzard not putting effort into developing it, since we are seeing many things return in various forms in respect to solo-viable content.

    Even an increase of focus on Professions is a direct appeal to solo-oriented content, something which has been left to the wayside for far too long. There's nothing in the way of dictating what their development would be better spent on, because content is literally whatever people choose to consume not simply what Blizzard provides. Like the majority of PVP oriented content is not going to be seen as 'meaningful content' to those who do not PVP. It doesn't mean Blizzard should just give up making new PVP seasons and rewards and PVP talent balancing just because of one man's opinion that PVE Group Content is where all end-game development should be focused on.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    NO I am not. You haven't read my posts at all. IF you want it to reward gear, it then needs to be a lower level than normal dungeons because you do that with 5 players vs one. If you reward equal or better gear at the same rate, nobody will do 5 man dungeons when you can do a solo dungeon instead. Creating content that invalidates other content is bad design. It would be a waste of time to create solo dungeons if it is going to make normal dungeons irrelevant.

    You are just one that wants equal reward for less effort. My way rewards appropriate gear for the amount of effort.
    Explain what I have said that would lead to less effort? What is effort in your eyes? Many people?

    Let me ask a question:
    If someone solos a current tier heroic raid boss, should that person stand without any reward out of principle because it's less effort in your eyes to solo stuff?

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Right, which means there is a general lack of single-player oriented progression content. And this has nothing to do with Blizzard not putting effort into developing it, since we are seeing many things return in various forms in respect to solo-viable content.

    Even an increase of focus on Professions is a direct appeal to solo-oriented content, something which has been left to the wayside for far too long. There's nothing in the way of dictating what their development would be better spent on, because content is literally whatever people choose to consume not simply what Blizzard provides. Like the majority of PVP oriented content is not going to be seen as 'meaningful content' to those who do not PVP. It doesn't mean Blizzard should just give up making new PVP seasons and rewards and PVP talent balancing just because of one man's opinion that PVE Group Content is where all end-game development should be focused on.
    I'm not going to disagree and say that WoW can't have more meaningful solo player content, I just do not believe that this type of content should have a progression system. (I mean, fuck, the current ZM system that's already in the game is too far, imo.) That was what I took issue with in my first reply on this comment chain. The current game encourages players to get out and play in groups to progress their gear -- this good; anything which encourages the opposite (solo dungeons) -- especially the types of systems that would require quite a bit of development time -- is 100% not the direction I think this game needs to go.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2022-08-10 at 08:55 PM.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I'm not going to disagree and say that WoW can't have more meaningful solo player content, I just do not believe that this type of content should have a progression system. (I mean, fuck, the current ZM system that's already in the game is too far, imo.) That was what I took issue with in my first reply on this comment chain. The current game encourages players to get out and play in groups to progress their gear -- this good; anything which encourages the opposite (solo dungeons) -- especially the types of systems that would require quite a bit of development time -- is 100% not the direction I think this game needs to go.
    Progression literally means progression. It is all about content. Rewards have literally nothing to do with it. Mage Tower is solo oriented content, though it doesn't have any direct progression to it. It's a one-and-done kind of thing with no real reason to do the repeated content if you've already obtained the reward.
    Brawlers Guild is actually progression content, but it's capped and limited.

    None of what was said was about obtaining the Best Rewards. It merely is about having the content and having the rewards to sustain solo-play, whatever form that may be.

    It's already difficult enough to push a point on making people realize that solo-oriented content already exists in the game. There's really no reason for us to have to go through this absolute circle just to recognize that it already exists just so we can move on to talking about something more.

    Let's be frank - no matter how much solo-oriented content Blizzard makes, there will always be Raid and Mythic Plus content. That doesn't go away just because something else gets increased. I'm honestly not sure why this seems so threatening to you. It isn't a give and take any more than PVP merely existing is a threat to all PVE, or LFR existing being a threat to all Normal+ Raiding like people thought it would have been back when it was first introduced (and many years following). Whatever effort they put into it is really no different than the effort they put into making more quests between major content patches. None of this threatens Group-based PVE content.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-10 at 09:13 PM.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Let's be frank - no matter how much solo-oriented content Blizzard makes, there will always be Raid and Mythic Plus content. That doesn't go away just because something else gets increased. I'm honestly not sure why this seems so threatening to you. It isn't a give and take any more than PVP merely existing is a threat to all PVE, or LFR existing being a threat to all Normal+ Raiding like people thought it would have been back when it was first introduced (and many years following). Whatever effort they put into it is really no different than the effort they put into making more quests between major content patches. None of this threatens Group-based PVE content.
    Call it a fear of the pathway of least resistance. I've been playing this game for awhile -- I quite enjoyed 25M Heroic raiding when it was a thing but it was all but completely gutted when Blizzard gave 10M Heroic gear parity. Why bother trying to maintain and recruit an additional 15 players when you can get the same rewards with a much smaller roster? (It didn't hurt that the content was objectively easier, either.) And now I'm seeing the same thing happen with M+ and Mythic raiding. Why bother maintaining a 20M roster for Mythic when you can just throw together a M+ group out of the group finder and get 95% of the best rewards? (S4 seems to be moving incentives back towards raiding but time will tell if this is an effective motivator.) If solo content gets a progression system similar to everything else, I can fully see a world where group content begins to get phased out altogether as people seek the easiest way to obtain rewards. I don't want that to happen because I quite enjoy the group content WoW provides and I'd hate to see it go away or become diminished just so WoW can become a glorified single player RPG with a MMO attached to it.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Call it a fear of the pathway of least resistance. I've been playing this game for awhile -- I quite enjoyed 25M Heroic raiding when it was a thing but it was all but completely gutted when Blizzard gave 10M Heroic gear parity. Why bother trying to maintain and recruit an additional 15 players when you can get the same rewards with a much smaller roster? (It didn't hurt that the content was objectively easier, either.) And now I'm seeing the same thing happen with M+ and Mythic raiding. Why bother maintaining a 20M roster for Mythic when you can just throw together a M+ group out of the group finder and get 95% of the best rewards? (S4 seems to be moving incentives back towards raiding but time will tell if this is an effective motivator.) If solo content gets a progression system similar to everything else, I can fully see a world where group content begins to get phased out altogether as people seek the easiest way to obtain rewards. I don't want that to happen because I quite enjoy the group content WoW provides and I'd hate to see it go away or become diminished just so WoW can become a glorified single player RPG with a MMO attached to it.
    Then maybe, just maybe, the top end tier group content is the problem and should be made more appealing.

    That's how it should be worked into having better and better systems, rather than literally defaulting to being the only avenue of content that exists because there is literally no other alternative.

    Would anyone legitimately look at the current state of WoW and say '25M Heroic raiding would be better if LFR never existed'? The content avenues have nothing to do with each other, and the goals and rewards aren't tied in the slightest. The problems you point out come when they try and offer gear parity between different types of content, and honestly this same shit happened to PVE and PVP gear when they were once scaled to be similarly valued for PVE.

    I'm all for you sharing your opinion on the matter, but honestly the point that Voidism was making was very far from having 'Best Rewards' applied to Solo content. It's not even a part of the conversation being had.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'm all for you sharing your opinion on the matter, but honestly the point that Voidism was making was very far from having 'Best Rewards' applied to Solo content. It's not even a part of the conversation being had.
    It is the natural conclusion for the argument though. Players won't be happy with mediocre rewards. Devs won't be happy if they invest a bunch of time into a system that nobody engages with because it doesn't have good rewards. The whole argument in favor of more appealing solo content rewards is, imo, at odds with the purpose of what a MMO should encourage. Instead of telling people to get into groups (like the game does currently), it's giving up and saying, "yeah we get it, you don't want to interact with people...here's a system designed for you." It also can (and will, like shown in the examples of my previous post) cannibalize the existing demographic of players in group content, making it that much hard to find groups. I'd much prefer players who think this game should have systems like this give up and play different games than constantly bombard Blizzard with suggestions that make the game more anti-social.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    It is the natural conclusion for the argument though. Players won't be happy with mediocre rewards. Devs won't be happy if they invest a bunch of time into a system that nobody engages with because it doesn't have good rewards. The whole argument in favor of more appealing solo content rewards is, imo, at odds with the purpose of what a MMO should encourage. Instead of telling people to get into groups (like the game does currently), it's giving up and saying, "yeah we get it, you don't want to interact with people...here's a system designed for you." It also can (and will, like shown in the examples of my previous post) cannibalize the existing demographic of players in group content, making it that much hard to find groups. I'd much prefer players who think this game should have systems like this give up and play different games than constantly bombard Blizzard with suggestions that make the game more anti-social.
    I get your sentiment but your opinions lack and evidence to back it up.

    LFR has mediocre rewards and doesn't make everyone happy. Devs still pour effort making LFR tier rewards and tuning fights to make sure they are 'LFR viable'. I don't think anyone has the data on LFR engagement to make a cold hard judgement call on whether people are engaging with the content or merely using it as a 'stepping stone' to something else.

    LFR can be argued as cannabalizing the existing demographic of players. LFR can be argued as a system that gets in the way of improving Normal+ group-finding.

    Now, would you say LFR is not worth the effort to be developed on, and should be removed because the Devs shouldn't be wasting their time? Whether your opinion is for or against, it's clear that there's a disparity between opinion and reality, because LFR still exists today despite the reasons which we're discussing as being 'problematic' to the greater whole.

    No matter what content we're talking about, if it's not end-game group content, it can be argued as 'cannabalizing' the existing demographic. You can take this argument to absurd extremes, because there's nothing really tangible here to discuss. The existing demographic doesn't just comprise of group-oriented players. The majority of the player base doesn't even stay subbed over the 2-year course of an expansion. What we're talking about here is an incredibly niche cross-section of the multiplayer-oriented player base and regarding them as 'the existing demographic' because there's literally no other end-game content to keep anyone else around.

    You have multiplayer-oriented PVEers who stick around for the end game, and you have PVPers. Everyone else just subs casually doing their own shit, or literally unsubs. And the sad fact is the majority of WoW's audience is unsubbed. They will come back in droves for Dragonflight, and leave again once their solo leveling experience is done with. Rinse and repeat. Fans like these have no care in the world for ilvls and 'best rewards'. They only care that there is content for them to consume, which comes far too infrequently past the leveling experience.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-10 at 10:29 PM.

  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    Yeah, pretty much. Relapses seems like a very angry person in need to cool down, so I am ignoring them. They seem not interested in real discussion, and it's probably better to leave it here. Everyone sees that we don't mean what Relapses say we mean.

    Life is too short to bother with such elements :P
    I literally said, in a thread, that I want fewer gear rewards as a goal and more intrinsic rewards (i.e. the content being "fun", for it's own sake) and he insisted that I wanted BiS gear for world quests. I mean, I say I want less gear and he claims I said I want more gear? Dude's so dishonest, I don't know why anyone engages with him after one conversation with him.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    Explain what I have said that would lead to less effort? What is effort in your eyes? Many people?

    Let me ask a question:
    If someone solos a current tier heroic raid boss, should that person stand without any reward out of principle because it's less effort in your eyes to solo stuff?
    It is not possible for one person to solo a current tier heroic raid boss. Go in and try for yourself. I mean if you were somehow able to sol it, you should get the rewards that drop for the group. But since it is impossible, it does not matter. Biut it is absolutely hilarious tha one thinks one player should get heroic raid gear for killing the game boss that is severely scaled down to even be soloable to begin with.

    Let me ask you a question? Would you do a heroic raid when the solo dungeon is giving you equal heroic raid loot? If you answer honestly, you won't say yes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    There is NO NEED for soloplay.

    One of the biggest companies in the industry, would had implemented more soloprogression, IF there was a need.

    They got ALL the data. They would do it, without you asking for it, if they could get more people to play and stay.

    Once again - they know their target audience. They do research.

    Do you understand?

    So no sologames, no easy rewards. It worked for almost 20 years now.
    There has been solo play. You actually can progress your toons playing solo. Did you play ZF at all. Did you try the cyphers? Also, did you miss when people are complaining about all the epics being given out like candy and calling it "welfare gear". Have you done Torghast? There are easy rewards. There is progression. My main is at 270 without stepping into a raid. Don't sit there and tell me their is no solo play progression. I am doing it right now.

    To say there is no soloplay progression is you lying. The fact that there is and they continue to provide it tells me they know they have an audience for it. We are just asking to provide them more.

    Since you are going to lie and argue in bad faith. We are done.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    People do engage with Mage Tower but even then its rewards are cosmetic by design. Brawler's Guild has fallen by the wayside but mostly because they stopped updating it. And even then, neither of these features requires the level of development that a solo dungeoning would necessitate. I think Blizzard is better off not spending those development hours on something designed for anti-social people who forgot that WoW is a MMO and instead continue developing the group content for which the game has couched its entire reputation.
    Nice job insulting people. It seems you have forgotten what MMO actually means. It does not refer to a specific form of content. A great game sapends time on ALL types of content, not just what you and only you wants.

    ALso people preferring solo content does not make them anti-social. You don't know them and for all you know, they have been social all day and just want some alone time in game. OF course they likely also want to get away from the toxicity that you are spewing.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Nice job insulting people. It seems you have forgotten what MMO actually means. It does not refer to a specific form of content. A great game sapends time on ALL types of content, not just what you and only you wants.
    I want WoW to be a roller coaster simulator. Or a FPS. Or a MOBA. Or a Survival Horror game. Or a Gacha game. Or a Trading Card Game. Or a {insert literally any game here}.

    Using your backwards logic, this is no less unreasonable than wanting WoW to be a single player game. If you want more single player content (with progression systems) you want something WoW was never intended to be. You are playing the wrong game. Full stop. End of story.

    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    ALso people preferring solo content does not make them anti-social. You don't know them and for all you know, they have been social all day and just want some alone time in game. OF course they likely also want to get away from the toxicity that you are spewing.
    They can spend all the alone time they want in any of the millions single player games out there.

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