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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I'm not going to disagree and say that WoW can't have more meaningful solo player content, I just do not believe that this type of content should have a progression system. (I mean, fuck, the current ZM system that's already in the game is too far, imo.) That was what I took issue with in my first reply on this comment chain. The current game encourages players to get out and play in groups to progress their gear -- this good; anything which encourages the opposite (solo dungeons) -- especially the types of systems that would require quite a bit of development time -- is 100% not the direction I think this game needs to go.
    Progression literally means progression. It is all about content. Rewards have literally nothing to do with it. Mage Tower is solo oriented content, though it doesn't have any direct progression to it. It's a one-and-done kind of thing with no real reason to do the repeated content if you've already obtained the reward.
    Brawlers Guild is actually progression content, but it's capped and limited.

    None of what was said was about obtaining the Best Rewards. It merely is about having the content and having the rewards to sustain solo-play, whatever form that may be.

    It's already difficult enough to push a point on making people realize that solo-oriented content already exists in the game. There's really no reason for us to have to go through this absolute circle just to recognize that it already exists just so we can move on to talking about something more.

    Let's be frank - no matter how much solo-oriented content Blizzard makes, there will always be Raid and Mythic Plus content. That doesn't go away just because something else gets increased. I'm honestly not sure why this seems so threatening to you. It isn't a give and take any more than PVP merely existing is a threat to all PVE, or LFR existing being a threat to all Normal+ Raiding like people thought it would have been back when it was first introduced (and many years following). Whatever effort they put into it is really no different than the effort they put into making more quests between major content patches. None of this threatens Group-based PVE content.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-10 at 09:13 PM.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Let's be frank - no matter how much solo-oriented content Blizzard makes, there will always be Raid and Mythic Plus content. That doesn't go away just because something else gets increased. I'm honestly not sure why this seems so threatening to you. It isn't a give and take any more than PVP merely existing is a threat to all PVE, or LFR existing being a threat to all Normal+ Raiding like people thought it would have been back when it was first introduced (and many years following). Whatever effort they put into it is really no different than the effort they put into making more quests between major content patches. None of this threatens Group-based PVE content.
    Call it a fear of the pathway of least resistance. I've been playing this game for awhile -- I quite enjoyed 25M Heroic raiding when it was a thing but it was all but completely gutted when Blizzard gave 10M Heroic gear parity. Why bother trying to maintain and recruit an additional 15 players when you can get the same rewards with a much smaller roster? (It didn't hurt that the content was objectively easier, either.) And now I'm seeing the same thing happen with M+ and Mythic raiding. Why bother maintaining a 20M roster for Mythic when you can just throw together a M+ group out of the group finder and get 95% of the best rewards? (S4 seems to be moving incentives back towards raiding but time will tell if this is an effective motivator.) If solo content gets a progression system similar to everything else, I can fully see a world where group content begins to get phased out altogether as people seek the easiest way to obtain rewards. I don't want that to happen because I quite enjoy the group content WoW provides and I'd hate to see it go away or become diminished just so WoW can become a glorified single player RPG with a MMO attached to it.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Call it a fear of the pathway of least resistance. I've been playing this game for awhile -- I quite enjoyed 25M Heroic raiding when it was a thing but it was all but completely gutted when Blizzard gave 10M Heroic gear parity. Why bother trying to maintain and recruit an additional 15 players when you can get the same rewards with a much smaller roster? (It didn't hurt that the content was objectively easier, either.) And now I'm seeing the same thing happen with M+ and Mythic raiding. Why bother maintaining a 20M roster for Mythic when you can just throw together a M+ group out of the group finder and get 95% of the best rewards? (S4 seems to be moving incentives back towards raiding but time will tell if this is an effective motivator.) If solo content gets a progression system similar to everything else, I can fully see a world where group content begins to get phased out altogether as people seek the easiest way to obtain rewards. I don't want that to happen because I quite enjoy the group content WoW provides and I'd hate to see it go away or become diminished just so WoW can become a glorified single player RPG with a MMO attached to it.
    Then maybe, just maybe, the top end tier group content is the problem and should be made more appealing.

    That's how it should be worked into having better and better systems, rather than literally defaulting to being the only avenue of content that exists because there is literally no other alternative.

    Would anyone legitimately look at the current state of WoW and say '25M Heroic raiding would be better if LFR never existed'? The content avenues have nothing to do with each other, and the goals and rewards aren't tied in the slightest. The problems you point out come when they try and offer gear parity between different types of content, and honestly this same shit happened to PVE and PVP gear when they were once scaled to be similarly valued for PVE.

    I'm all for you sharing your opinion on the matter, but honestly the point that Voidism was making was very far from having 'Best Rewards' applied to Solo content. It's not even a part of the conversation being had.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'm all for you sharing your opinion on the matter, but honestly the point that Voidism was making was very far from having 'Best Rewards' applied to Solo content. It's not even a part of the conversation being had.
    It is the natural conclusion for the argument though. Players won't be happy with mediocre rewards. Devs won't be happy if they invest a bunch of time into a system that nobody engages with because it doesn't have good rewards. The whole argument in favor of more appealing solo content rewards is, imo, at odds with the purpose of what a MMO should encourage. Instead of telling people to get into groups (like the game does currently), it's giving up and saying, "yeah we get it, you don't want to interact with people...here's a system designed for you." It also can (and will, like shown in the examples of my previous post) cannibalize the existing demographic of players in group content, making it that much hard to find groups. I'd much prefer players who think this game should have systems like this give up and play different games than constantly bombard Blizzard with suggestions that make the game more anti-social.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    It is the natural conclusion for the argument though. Players won't be happy with mediocre rewards. Devs won't be happy if they invest a bunch of time into a system that nobody engages with because it doesn't have good rewards. The whole argument in favor of more appealing solo content rewards is, imo, at odds with the purpose of what a MMO should encourage. Instead of telling people to get into groups (like the game does currently), it's giving up and saying, "yeah we get it, you don't want to interact with people...here's a system designed for you." It also can (and will, like shown in the examples of my previous post) cannibalize the existing demographic of players in group content, making it that much hard to find groups. I'd much prefer players who think this game should have systems like this give up and play different games than constantly bombard Blizzard with suggestions that make the game more anti-social.
    I get your sentiment but your opinions lack and evidence to back it up.

    LFR has mediocre rewards and doesn't make everyone happy. Devs still pour effort making LFR tier rewards and tuning fights to make sure they are 'LFR viable'. I don't think anyone has the data on LFR engagement to make a cold hard judgement call on whether people are engaging with the content or merely using it as a 'stepping stone' to something else.

    LFR can be argued as cannabalizing the existing demographic of players. LFR can be argued as a system that gets in the way of improving Normal+ group-finding.

    Now, would you say LFR is not worth the effort to be developed on, and should be removed because the Devs shouldn't be wasting their time? Whether your opinion is for or against, it's clear that there's a disparity between opinion and reality, because LFR still exists today despite the reasons which we're discussing as being 'problematic' to the greater whole.

    No matter what content we're talking about, if it's not end-game group content, it can be argued as 'cannabalizing' the existing demographic. You can take this argument to absurd extremes, because there's nothing really tangible here to discuss. The existing demographic doesn't just comprise of group-oriented players. The majority of the player base doesn't even stay subbed over the 2-year course of an expansion. What we're talking about here is an incredibly niche cross-section of the multiplayer-oriented player base and regarding them as 'the existing demographic' because there's literally no other end-game content to keep anyone else around.

    You have multiplayer-oriented PVEers who stick around for the end game, and you have PVPers. Everyone else just subs casually doing their own shit, or literally unsubs. And the sad fact is the majority of WoW's audience is unsubbed. They will come back in droves for Dragonflight, and leave again once their solo leveling experience is done with. Rinse and repeat. Fans like these have no care in the world for ilvls and 'best rewards'. They only care that there is content for them to consume, which comes far too infrequently past the leveling experience.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-10 at 10:29 PM.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    Yeah, pretty much. Relapses seems like a very angry person in need to cool down, so I am ignoring them. They seem not interested in real discussion, and it's probably better to leave it here. Everyone sees that we don't mean what Relapses say we mean.

    Life is too short to bother with such elements :P
    I literally said, in a thread, that I want fewer gear rewards as a goal and more intrinsic rewards (i.e. the content being "fun", for it's own sake) and he insisted that I wanted BiS gear for world quests. I mean, I say I want less gear and he claims I said I want more gear? Dude's so dishonest, I don't know why anyone engages with him after one conversation with him.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    Explain what I have said that would lead to less effort? What is effort in your eyes? Many people?

    Let me ask a question:
    If someone solos a current tier heroic raid boss, should that person stand without any reward out of principle because it's less effort in your eyes to solo stuff?
    It is not possible for one person to solo a current tier heroic raid boss. Go in and try for yourself. I mean if you were somehow able to sol it, you should get the rewards that drop for the group. But since it is impossible, it does not matter. Biut it is absolutely hilarious tha one thinks one player should get heroic raid gear for killing the game boss that is severely scaled down to even be soloable to begin with.

    Let me ask you a question? Would you do a heroic raid when the solo dungeon is giving you equal heroic raid loot? If you answer honestly, you won't say yes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    There is NO NEED for soloplay.

    One of the biggest companies in the industry, would had implemented more soloprogression, IF there was a need.

    They got ALL the data. They would do it, without you asking for it, if they could get more people to play and stay.

    Once again - they know their target audience. They do research.

    Do you understand?

    So no sologames, no easy rewards. It worked for almost 20 years now.
    There has been solo play. You actually can progress your toons playing solo. Did you play ZF at all. Did you try the cyphers? Also, did you miss when people are complaining about all the epics being given out like candy and calling it "welfare gear". Have you done Torghast? There are easy rewards. There is progression. My main is at 270 without stepping into a raid. Don't sit there and tell me their is no solo play progression. I am doing it right now.

    To say there is no soloplay progression is you lying. The fact that there is and they continue to provide it tells me they know they have an audience for it. We are just asking to provide them more.

    Since you are going to lie and argue in bad faith. We are done.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    People do engage with Mage Tower but even then its rewards are cosmetic by design. Brawler's Guild has fallen by the wayside but mostly because they stopped updating it. And even then, neither of these features requires the level of development that a solo dungeoning would necessitate. I think Blizzard is better off not spending those development hours on something designed for anti-social people who forgot that WoW is a MMO and instead continue developing the group content for which the game has couched its entire reputation.
    Nice job insulting people. It seems you have forgotten what MMO actually means. It does not refer to a specific form of content. A great game sapends time on ALL types of content, not just what you and only you wants.

    ALso people preferring solo content does not make them anti-social. You don't know them and for all you know, they have been social all day and just want some alone time in game. OF course they likely also want to get away from the toxicity that you are spewing.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Nice job insulting people. It seems you have forgotten what MMO actually means. It does not refer to a specific form of content. A great game sapends time on ALL types of content, not just what you and only you wants.
    I want WoW to be a roller coaster simulator. Or a FPS. Or a MOBA. Or a Survival Horror game. Or a Gacha game. Or a Trading Card Game. Or a {insert literally any game here}.

    Using your backwards logic, this is no less unreasonable than wanting WoW to be a single player game. If you want more single player content (with progression systems) you want something WoW was never intended to be. You are playing the wrong game. Full stop. End of story.

    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    ALso people preferring solo content does not make them anti-social. You don't know them and for all you know, they have been social all day and just want some alone time in game. OF course they likely also want to get away from the toxicity that you are spewing.
    They can spend all the alone time they want in any of the millions single player games out there.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    It is not possible for one person to solo a current tier heroic raid boss. Go in and try for yourself. I mean if you were somehow able to sol it, you should get the rewards that drop for the group. But since it is impossible, it does not matter. Biut it is absolutely hilarious tha one thinks one player should get heroic raid gear for killing the game boss that is severely scaled down to even be soloable to begin with.

    Let me ask you a question? Would you do a heroic raid when the solo dungeon is giving you equal heroic raid loot? If you answer honestly, you won't say yes.
    Uh, sure mate. That's obviously not what my point is. I see you, with Relapses, are also angry and only here to argue. Welcome to ignore.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by b1gh3x View Post
    And not just world quests and dailies, but rather, meaningful and challenging content that can progress your character through out the entirety of a season.

    I envision a solo end game content experience, much like Monster Hunter or Dark Souls/Elden Ring.

    As it stands, there is currently very little reason to log on, outside your weekly m+/raid times. There is just nothing to do.
    Torghast tried this, but managed to just be a worse version of horrofic visions in both execution and rewards.

    Which is not to say i don't support the idea; i shouldn't be required to navigate whatever bullshit the playerbase has cooked/cocked up to play the game, between rating and achievement requirements to little sods thinking their opinion on my build should matter even a whiff.

    Solo content is in that sense the backbone, the fallback-option for whenever the community fucks up, rather than the devs.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Then maybe, just maybe, the top end tier group content is the problem and should be made more appealing.
    people will rather level through way thats faster than through the one they enjoy, you think it will be different at endgame?
    most people will choose whatever is most effective, not whats most appealing

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Torghast tried this, but managed to just be a worse version of horrofic visions in both execution and rewards.

    Which is not to say i don't support the idea; i shouldn't be required to navigate whatever bullshit the playerbase has cooked/cocked up to play the game, between rating and achievement requirements to little sods thinking their opinion on my build should matter even a whiff.

    Solo content is in that sense the backbone, the fallback-option for whenever the community fucks up, rather than the devs.
    Or you could fuck off to a single player game? Who the hell joins a team based game and thinks that they can do whatever they want at the expense of everyone else?

    Why are you even here? In chess you can't move pieces anyway you like because bishop's are op bs and you really wanna spec pawns.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Torghast tried this, but managed to just be a worse version of horrofic visions in both execution and rewards.

    Which is not to say i don't support the idea; i shouldn't be required to navigate whatever bullshit the playerbase has cooked/cocked up to play the game, between rating and achievement requirements to little sods thinking their opinion on my build should matter even a whiff.

    Solo content is in that sense the backbone, the fallback-option for whenever the community fucks up, rather than the devs.
    Torghast could have been way more fun than Visions if it had some more meaningful rewards and more interesting difficulty. I did Visions for the loot and mount/title. I didn't really enjoy them that much though, it was boring to run the same thing over and over, week after week.

    If they had the infinite levels one that saved your progress and you got better gear the higher you climbed it would have been great.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    Uh, sure mate. That's obviously not what my point is. I see you, with Relapses, are also angry and only here to argue. Welcome to ignore.
    Translation: I am not willing to answer the question posed because I know it would kill my argument dead.

    Seems you are here to push a narrative and don't want debate but an echo chamber. Ignore it is.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Translation: I am not willing to answer the question posed because I know it would kill my argument dead.

    Seems you are here to push a narrative and don't want debate but an echo chamber. Ignore it is.
    Devils advocate. There have been a few times heroic raid bosses have been soloed. Usually from a oversight of not having a hard enrage timer or mechanics dangerous to an overgeared tank.

    Fel reaver comes to mind. That doesn't really add or take away from your point I'm just bored at work.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by b1gh3x View Post
    And not just world quests and dailies, but rather, meaningful and challenging content that can progress your character through out the entirety of a season.

    I envision a solo end game content experience, much like Monster Hunter or Dark Souls/Elden Ring.

    As it stands, there is currently very little reason to log on, outside your weekly m+/raid times. There is just nothing to do.
    I do agree with you in principle. Most players in this game are solo players (look at the raid/ m+/ pvp completion rates, all sub 30%), roughly 70% or basically solo "ish" type players. If I was a Dev, that wanted a successful game, I would design the content for the majority of the player base.

    Based on that principle- there needs to be a ton more solo content. I would say content is 75% group 25% solo (roughly) that should be reversed based on player completion rates in content.

    However, the Devs have been consistent and clear on one thing: Azeroth is for meeting up and playing adventures with your friends. It is the design principle behind the game. I think it was envisioned as sort of a virtual "D n D," which is played in a group.

    The game has always been a war between those two principles. Personally, I think they should stick with the group thing. They just need to find ways to make it more accesable and equitable (its not at all right now- there is a lot of work to be done).

    My first suggestion is a very easy one- allow people to individually que for the bosses in the raid at any level (sort of like FF). Just even a small step like that would make it a ton more accesable. Beating the boss should be the challenge- not actually making a group. Finding the group should never be the challenge in the game if you are a group focused game. It is in WoW though (and has been- the boosting is just a symptom of it), they really need to fix that if they want grouping to be the focus. That's the real issue.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Translation: I am not willing to answer the question posed because I know it would kill my argument dead.

    Seems you are here to push a narrative and don't want debate but an echo chamber. Ignore it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    I do agree with you in principle. Most players in this game are solo players (look at the raid/ m+/ pvp completion rates, all sub 30%), roughly 70% or basically solo "ish" type players. If I was a Dev, that wanted a successful game, I would design the content for the majority of the player base.

    Based on that principle- there needs to be a ton more solo content. I would say content is 75% group 25% solo (roughly) that should be reversed based on player completion rates in content.

    However, the Devs have been consistent and clear on one thing: Azeroth is for meeting up and playing adventures with your friends. It is the design principle behind the game. I think it was envisioned as sort of a virtual "D n D," which is played in a group.

    The game has always been a war between those two principles. Personally, I think they should stick with the group thing. They just need to find ways to make it more accesable and equitable (its not at all right now- there is a lot of work to be done).

    My first suggestion is a very easy one- allow people to individually que for the bosses in the raid at any level (sort of like FF). Just even a small step like that would make it a ton more accesable. Beating the boss should be the challenge- not actually making a group. Finding the group should never be the challenge in the game if you are a group focused game. It is in WoW though (and has been- the boosting is just a symptom of it), they really need to fix that if they want grouping to be the focus. That's the real issue.
    People who are asking for more EXCLUSIVE solocontent or soloprogression - is deemed flakey and useless by Blizzard(they just won't invest in you - and I personally can't blame them).

    And because you are egocentric/subjective - you don't reliaze the problems you are creating:

    1)How do you design a badguy - do you put him in a Magetower and write a story around him(i.e the Jailor)? Everybody is a hero - killing a badguy solo - is that the narrative? How does it fit the game?

    2)How do you deal with rewardsystem?
    People solo should access the same gear as raiders(you know - people who need to play a much harder game - with higher skill and social requirements).

    How do you deal with gearing - which is the most essential part of the game?

    3)How does this affect the social atmosphere of the game(i.e everybody is in magetowers, torghasts etc.). WoD got critizied for killing the atmosphere, as everybody where in thier garrison - how do you avoid this problem again?

    You see - I think one of the biggest companies in the industry - researchs thier audiance(and they have the data - they know what people spends time on). They would implement anything, before you even would ask - as long as they would make people play and stay.

    Whatever we don't have ingame - it's a strategic choice from the devs. Not because of it was mistake.
    Last edited by HansOlo; 2022-08-11 at 12:31 PM.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    Based on that principle- there needs to be a ton more solo content. I would say content is 75% group 25% solo (roughly) that should be reversed based on player completion rates in content.
    How are you getting 75% group content? The majority of content in the game, added in every expansion, and in every patch is solo content. It is literally just PvP (something that rarely gets additions), raids, and dungeons.

  19. #259
    It needs more content like Visions, it's group content but can also be played and finished as single.

  20. #260
    All I want is stuff I can queue for and make meaningful progress on my character. This hasn't existed since MoP. MoP was awesome for being something most anyone had an avenue to enjoy in.

    What bugs the hell out of me is that people will call queueing for stuff single player content.

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