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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I'm pretty sure I've had this exact discussion with you in another thread but what I mean is that in the hypothetical where solo content has a similar progression system as group content it is not completely out of realm of possibility for this solo content to diminish the potential player pool for group content. Why bother putting together a group when you can just do everything on your own terms? I know there will still be people who will do group content regardless but like I said in my post a few pages back, whenever players are given a pathway of less resistance in this game players tend to flock to it, obliterating whatever community existed for the content they moved from.
    You're posing a hypothetical that group content wouldn't even be able to exist on its own because it's the vastly inferior alternative. I mean, if you're posing such a theoretical situation, then the obvious theoretical answer is such a product isn't even worth continuing to exist in the form that it already does. It deserves to be changed.


    As for for the potential player pool diminishing; that already happens every expansion, ~3-months into the expansion, when MILLIONS of players unsub after they reach max level. You already aren't playing with the majority of the player base that is unsubbed. You already aren't playing with the player base that only PVPs. We're talking about a very different content path for a different type of player, and there is no direct threat to group content because solo progression is not group content. You will very likely never directly interact with and have never interacted with players who choose to play the game Solo. And whatever effects you see diminishing your potential pool isn't going to be any different than the current player base choosing to leave the game to play other MMO's or because of content drought or any other billion reasons there are to merely stop playing. A secondary content path is hardly a reason to worry about player loss.

    I can't see this 'diminshing pool' really affecting anyone who is committed to raiding on a regular basis since you can always find like-minded people to play with. And PUGs aren't really gonna be affected since randos are randos and you're always going to find someone to play with. Even a dead game like Heroes of the Storm still has players.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-12 at 04:49 AM.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You're posing a hypothetical that group content wouldn't even be able to exist on its own because it's the vastly inferior alternative. I mean, if you're posing such a theoretical situation, then the obvious theoretical answer is such a product isn't even worth continuing to exist in the form that it already does. It deserves to be changed.


    As for for the potential player pool diminishing; that already happens every expansion, ~3-months into the expansion, when MILLIONS of players unsub after they reach max level. You already aren't playing with the majority of the player base that is unsubbed. You already aren't playing with the player base that only PVPs. We're talking about a very different content path for a different type of player, and there is no direct threat to group content because solo progression is not group content. You will very likely never directly interact with and have never interacted with players who choose to play the game Solo. And whatever effects you see diminishing your potential pool isn't going to be any different than the current player base choosing to leave the game to play other MMO's or because of content drought or any other billion reasons there are to merely stop playing. A secondary content path is hardly a reason to worry about player loss.

    I can't see this 'diminshing pool' really affecting anyone who is committed to raiding on a regular basis since you can always find like-minded people to play with. And PUGs aren't really gonna be affected since randos are randos and you're always going to find someone to play with. Even a dead game like Heroes of the Storm still has players.
    I really don't think you understand the gravitas of the ways players abandon content when seeking out that path of least of resistance. For example, take a look at 10 vs 25M raiding guild numbers post the gear parity change in Cata:


    source: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...LK-through-MoP

    Even though 10M guilds decreased, too (mostly a result of fewer players in general) you have to keep in mind that these 25M raiding guilds had 2.5 times the players and about 80% of them were wiped out in a single raid tier. And as you can see from that graph, 25M raiding never really recovered. I know the argument is that "obviously players don't like that content" but it doesn't really explain why the number was unchanged from T9 to T10. If 80% of the players who are currently seeking group content were to suddenly take the path of least resistance and decide to go the solo route it'd effectively switch WoW from a MMO focused on group content with some solo elements to a single player focused game with MMO elements. I cannot in good conscience condone this kind of departure in direction for the game.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2022-08-12 at 06:41 AM.

  3. #303
    There should be more solo content like mage tower, brawlers guild or even proving grounds that help players to gauge how good they are at the game and help them evolve as a player.

    The problem I see isn't that people don't want to play with other people but that there's a steep increase in difficulty and not much in-game to help player conquer it. If you're not already a high skilled player, then you won't get into groups to become one.

    At the moment questing is so easy to a point that a skilled player can solo even the few group quests. Normal dungeons are easy, heroic dungeons you get one new mechanic per boss and mythic dungeons another new mechanic. After that m+ adds a lot. A timer, forces count, an affix and increases all HP and damage. That's a lot of new stuff for a jump from m0 to m+2.

    For raiding it's even worse. You can start in LFR which isn't that much of a pushover anymore because most of the main mechanics are still there and need to be played correctly like the downstairs phase of kelthuzad or the runes in the rohkalo fight. But step it up to normal and you get new mechanics and old ones change, same happens if you step up to heroic and again to mythic. With each difficulty you have to learn a different fight and prior knowledge of the fight doesn't help you that much.

    They should add something for solo players that scales your stats so that you can't overgear it or even better use pre-determined stats so you can't cheese it with trinkets or other special effects. Something like a solo dungeon with different caves or levels with the first ones teaching you basiucs like kicks and stuns, using personal def cds and the later ones challenging you to use the right tool for the right situation and as rewards gives you maybe a per, a title and a mount. Skilled player can finish it probably first try but others have something to progress towards and make them ready for group content. As hated as proving grounds were in wod, I think they were fine as a requirement to be able to que for random heroic dungeons because it made sure that you can play your class and spec at a certain level.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by b1gh3x View Post
    And not just world quests and dailies, but rather, meaningful and challenging content that can progress your character through out the entirety of a season.

    I envision a solo end game content experience, much like Monster Hunter or Dark Souls/Elden Ring.

    As it stands, there is currently very little reason to log on, outside your weekly m+/raid times. There is just nothing to do.
    I havent posted on this forum in ages but reactivated just to tell you that individuals like you are the reason that this game and various genres of games have become absolute trash.

    If you want single player go play an RPG

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    They have single player it's been done amazing well in mage towers and decently well in visions. The problem this conversation always runs into is people want wow to be an entirely different genre or to start showering them in gear.
    Oh please...

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    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    Hell, MMOs weren't group-focused even in 2002.

    It was Everquest and WoW that started the whole "only grouping matters" concept and companies rode with it because those games were successful and they surmised that that's what people wanted. The MMO genre has been mostly garbage ever since.

    Really looking forward to Palia and playing in a persistent world again.
    Oh come now, WoW has always been very singleplayer friendly.

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  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I really don't think you understand the gravitas of the ways players abandon content when seeking out that path of least of resistance. For example, take a look at 10 vs 25M raiding guild numbers post the gear parity change in Cata:


    source: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...LK-through-MoP

    Even though 10M guilds decreased, too (mostly a result of fewer players in general) you have to keep in mind that these 25M raiding guilds had 2.5 times the players and about 80% of them were wiped out in a single raid tier. And as you can see from that graph, 25M raiding never really recovered. I know the argument is that "obviously players don't like that content" but it doesn't really explain why the number was unchanged from T9 to T10. If 80% of the players who are currently seeking group content were to suddenly take the path of least resistance and decide to go the solo route it'd effectively switch WoW from a group content with some solo elements to a single player game with MMO elements. I just cannot in good conscience condone this kind of departure in direction for the game.
    If Solo raiding had shared raid locks with Group Content, I'll concede to your example.

    Otherwise I don't think that would ever be the case, and I would absolutely point at the shared raid lock contributing to the 25-man decline and it's even stated so by multiple people in the very thread you pulled that source from.

    Also, want to factor LFR into this as well? It is the optimal 'Path of least resistance'. Do you think LFR is killing Mythic raiding because it exists as a path of least resistance?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-12 at 06:20 AM.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    If Solo raiding had shared raid locks with Group Content, I'll concede to your example.

    Otherwise I don't think that would ever be the case, and I would absolutely point at the shared raid lock contributing to the 25-man decline and it's even stated so by multiple people in the very thread you pulled that source from.
    The shared lockout obviously had some impact but I don't think it fully explains an 80% decrease though. That's a lot of players. Adding to that, we're already seeing the same exact thing happen with Mythic raiding as more and more ex-Mythic raiders focus on the less-logistically intensive M+ option. I see no reason not to think that the same phenomena would occur if players had access to a progression method which effectively eliminates logistics from the equation altogether.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Also, want to factor LFR into this as well? It is the optimal 'Path of least resistance'. Do you think LFR is killing Mythic raiding because it exists as a path of least resistance?
    This is a bit of a loaded question. If you want a solo progression system with rewards which stops at Normal raid quality level then I'd say it's about the same. (And already exists, we just described the ZM system added in 9.2.) But if we're talking about a progression system which allows players to gear all the way up to Mythic quality (with commensurate difficulty) then the LFR isn't really an apt comparison because it shifts the target of the system away from super casual players to those who are seeking a challenge.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2022-08-12 at 06:56 AM.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    This is a bit of a loaded question. If you want a solo progression system with rewards which stops at Normal raid quality level then I'd say it's about the same. (And already exists, we just described the ZM system added in 9.2.) But if we're talking about a progression system which allows players to gear all the way up to Mythic quality (with commensurate difficulty) then the LFR isn't really an apt comparison because it shifts the target of the system away from super casual players to those who are seeking a challenge.
    Well it's not a loaded question because you're making assumptions that we're not all agreeing with here. Solo doesn't even exist, so there's no way to merely assume Solo would be rewarded with the same gear parity as Heroic or Mythic raiding. There's no way to even properly balance the systems in order to share the same gear between them. There's no general concensus at play that says any and all Solo viable progression Raid would be balanced on the level of Heroic and Mythic raids while offering the same gear rewards from them.

    It would be just as unfair to assume that LFR will compete with Mythic raiding because (for whatever reason) LFR players will have access to Mythic rewards.

    I can see why you have a problem with the idea if you're literally jumping to this specific conclusion.

    Solo content would have to be balanced and rewarded according to the challenge and difficulty of solo content. Otherwise, I'm not sure why we're talking about Mythic rewards being given out to anything other than Mythic raids.

    Solo raids should obviously be designed and tuned to solo challenge and difficulty, and in turn have appropriate rewards to it. Otherwise, it's pointless to argue that 'LFR giving out Mythic Raid loot would be bad for the game'. It's a pretty poor example of how Solo progression would be implemented in the game. It wouldn't merely be another version of 25-man or 10-man Raiding. There's no way to balance a raid down to that level while retaining the same rewards.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-12 at 07:19 AM.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    How would you answer the concern that providing more solo content provides less options for the people who prefer group content?
    World team is separate from the dungeons and raid teams. Hire a few more developers and quest writers for the world team. Meanwhile, try and open up 'normal' (not heroic or mythic) dungeon content so it's possible for groups smaller than five to participate. Leave raids as they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I'm not going to pretend assholes on the internet don't exist (ask my 4chan fanclub) but I feel like the "abuse" card is greatly exaggerated. Blizzard is already well on its way to creating systems to get rid of toxic players and the potential upswing (meeting new people who become long-term acquaintances) seems, to me, to far outweigh the negativity.
    The problem with abuse is 1) it drives people away from that content, often forever. It doesn't take all that many bad experiences for people to shrug, say fuck it and never bother with it again (as a pug) and 2) it drives people away from the game altogether. You don't need that much of it for it to badly affect player experience. As for Blizzard and their efforts to do something about toxic players, good for them and I'll believe it when I see something that works.
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  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Well it's not a loaded question because you're making assumptions that we're not all agreeing with here. Solo doesn't even exist, so there's no way to merely assume Solo would be rewarded with the same gear parity as Heroic or Mythic raiding. There's no way to even properly balance the systems in order to share the same gear between them. There's no general concensus at play that says any and all Solo viable progression Raid would be balanced on the level of Heroic and Mythic raids while offering the same gear rewards from them.

    I can see why you have a problem with the idea if you're literally jumping to this specific conclusion.
    It's hard to answer the specific question you asked without knowing what you have in mind for a solo progression system. I wasn't trying to be presumptuous with my answer, though I guess I could have worded that better.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Or you could fuck off to a single player game? Who the hell joins a team based game and thinks that they can do whatever they want at the expense of everyone else?

    Why are you even here? In chess you can't move pieces anyway you like because bishop's are op bs and you really wanna spec pawns.
    It's not team based though, joining any party requires actions on the part of the player and most of it is solo accessible.

    You might want it to be, but that does not make it so.


    And i know there are rules to any game, but that's precisely what we're discussing; pretending they are static or set in stone is disingenuous at best.
    No point in invoking rules while altering them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lathspell View Post
    Torghast could have been way more fun than Visions if it had some more meaningful rewards and more interesting difficulty. I did Visions for the loot and mount/title. I didn't really enjoy them that much though, it was boring to run the same thing over and over, week after week.

    If they had the infinite levels one that saved your progress and you got better gear the higher you climbed it would have been great.
    True, but it did have potential and you didn't need to do them too often, making any flaws that much easier to stomache.
    And i mean Tor'ghast would not have gotten the spotlight it did had visions not been succesful.
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  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I'm not going to pretend assholes on the internet don't exist (ask my 4chan fanclub) but I feel like the "abuse" card is greatly exaggerated. Blizzard is already well on its way to creating systems to get rid of toxic players and the potential upswing (meeting new people who become long-term acquaintances) seems, to me, to far outweigh the negativity.
    It's always gonna be about how and how much is Blizzard going to enforce these policies. So far the "don't put advertisements in LFD tool" didn't do shit for example (though it's a minor thing in the end).

    Also the viewpoint matters. If someone is partecipating in high keys, generally the experience is way better because since there's no reward attached you'll very likley find people with similar mindsets. The whole "communuty is toxic and pugging is horrible" comes mostly from the lower end of the spectrum where you basically find both the majority of people and also the less able ones - who tend to care less about the game/community and more about their personal needs.

    It's a sort of "elo-hell" effect, where people all want to rush to higher ratings fast because people there is objectively better and the game experience is improved. If for whatever reason you're slow you find yourself having a worse time because not only you're playing with a different kind of players but also will take more time to reach that threshold; plus since M+ rating is not a matchmaking system but just a score that naturally over time gets higher, the thresholds just climbs upper and upper the more time passes.

    Dunno if i explained my point clearly. Feel free to ask or point out inconsistencies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I cannot in good conscience condone this kind of departure in direction for the game.
    I agree but i don't think there's going to be another end if Blizzard is going to continue supporting and developing the game. With the introduction of M+ the same thing happened with raiding guilds in total - a lot of people just find the M+ system better for their gameplay sessions and that also offers both a very good progression path and long term/"infinite" challenge, so you can tackle it however you want, and completely solo (pugging is the equivalent of open world shared events you have to do in more than 1 people).

    It would change the game as whole for sure. We'll see how things will go in the future anyway.
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  13. #313
    Stood in the Fire VMSmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Oh come now, WoW has always been very singleplayer friendly.
    No, it really hasn't been. Solo content post-leveling has always been pretty much an afterthought with WoW, especially once they got instanced PvP rolling.

    Yes, there has always been things to do solo, like farming materials, but they've never been particularly engaging or rewarding. Outside of a short period of time from mid-Cata (Molten Front) through the end of MoP, solo content has always been sorely lacking as anything other than a grind for grinding's sake.

    You may be confusing the fact that WoW was less punishing to players as being solo-friendly, e.g. death penalties. It also included much of the quality of life enhancements that various games had been making up to that point and continued to add more as other games developed them. Both of these things made solo play more fun, but the heart of the game has always been dungeons/raids and, later, battlegrounds.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Torghast tried this, but managed to just be a worse version of horrofic visions in both execution and rewards.
    Blizzard seems to do this a lot. They come out with something that sort of works, then change it so it doesn't work. It's like they don't understand why some particular glob of spaghetti they threw at the wall happened to stick.
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  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Sounds like Visions.
    I would like it to be more like Torghast so you aren't running the exact same thing every single time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    People say this every day on some WoW forum or site. "Purple" gear existing outside of raid is proof enough of that.
    Because never in Blizzard's history have they ever added something that the players didn't ask for right? Oh wait, most of the content added wasn't asked for by players.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    World team is separate from the dungeons and raid teams. Hire a few more developers and quest writers for the world team. Meanwhile, try and open up 'normal' (not heroic or mythic) dungeon content so it's possible for groups smaller than five to participate. Leave raids as they are.
    I was speaking more on the player side of things rather than development. For every 10 players now progressing themselves via whatever solo progression system Blizzard adds that's 10 fewer players available to interact with group content.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    The problem with abuse is 1) it drives people away from that content, often forever. It doesn't take all that many bad experiences for people to shrug, say fuck it and never bother with it again (as a pug) and 2) it drives people away from the game altogether. You don't need that much of it for it to badly affect player experience. As for Blizzard and their efforts to do something about toxic players, good for them and I'll believe it when I see something that works.
    I've noticed a lot fewer angry whispers post player contract but that's obviously anecdotal. I've seen a few people post about getting their accounts banned then having their appeals denied because of the social contract, too. It'll take awhile before we see any major shifts in general behavior but it does seem like they're at least trying to combat the worst offenders.

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I was speaking more on the player side of things rather than development. For every 10 players now progressing themselves via whatever solo progression system Blizzard adds that's 10 fewer players available to interact with group content.
    You're implying that forced socialization is necessary to prop up group play. To the extent that that is true it's a problem. Blizzard has been extremely lax about policing player behavior. I hope they are planning to do better but I can't say that I hold out much hope at this point. It's a problem they've let metastasize for years and won't be easily turned around now.

    Communities were an interesting idea for social interaction in the game. Blizzard tossed them out there and hasn't said anything about them since. One would not be remiss to think they've abandoned the concept of doing anything to make non-pug group play any easier or more interesting.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2022-08-12 at 05:46 PM.
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  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    You're implying that forced socialization is necessary to prop up group play. To the extent that that is true it's a problem. Blizzard has been extremely lax about policing player behavior. I hope they are planning to do better but I can't say that I hold out much hope at this point. It's a problem they've let metastasize for years and won't be easily turned around now.

    Communities were an interesting idea for social interaction in the game. Blizzard tossed them out there and hasn't said anything about them since. One would not be remiss to think they've abandoned the concept of doing anything to make non-pug group play any easier or more interesting.
    I've only seen boost communities work out. It's an interesting idea but locking mythic raids to realms kills it for raiding and mythic plus has it's own elo system in place for pugging that works far better then a non curated system.

    Community's could maybe work but they need a reason to exist... maybe if you could work out resources like a guild for cross faction raiding?

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    No, it really hasn't been. Solo content post-leveling has always been pretty much an afterthought with WoW, especially once they got instanced PvP rolling.

    Yes, there has always been things to do solo, like farming materials, but they've never been particularly engaging or rewarding. Outside of a short period of time from mid-Cata (Molten Front) through the end of MoP, solo content has always been sorely lacking as anything other than a grind for grinding's sake.

    You may be confusing the fact that WoW was less punishing to players as being solo-friendly, e.g. death penalties. It also included much of the quality of life enhancements that various games had been making up to that point and continued to add more as other games developed them. Both of these things made solo play more fun, but the heart of the game has always been dungeons/raids and, later, battlegrounds.
    I disagree. I've been a solo player since the closed EU vanilla beta, and it wasn't really until SL that I felt that I ran out of things to do.

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  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by lordjust View Post
    The problem I see isn't that people don't want to play with other people but that there's a steep increase in difficulty and not much in-game to help player conquer it. If you're not already a high skilled player, then you won't get into groups to become one.
    Skill is a 3-fold thing. Awareness, which won't ever change for a player. Time and willingness to practice the content you want to play (not something else). Time and willingness to research - your class and the content you do. And the last two - not a lot of ppl willing to do that.

    And for getting in a group - one more thing is needed. Perseverence. To do the group content often enough and from early enough to keep up with the gear and group requirements (achi, rio etc). And not a lot of ppl willing
    to do that either. Pugging does not support once in a while play.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    I disagree. I've been a solo player since the closed EU vanilla beta, and it wasn't really until SL that I felt that I ran out of things to do.
    What content were you doing solo in Cata, for example, after finishing the initial reps?

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