There needs to be more single player content

[VMSmith]

Oh, I'm not saying in any way that it was a GOOD thing. Sorry if that was ambiguous. I myself was one of those PvP haters and I resented every second of it in BFA where the essence was PvE BiS.

I'm just saying, it's not like they COULDN'T do it. More that they shouldn't.

Yes, I fully agree with this. Sorry if it seemed like I thought you approved of that system, I was more just expounding on the concept.

[Triceron]

Is this another the majority will pick whatever they want and covenants are an amazing idea?

You will never ever keep those players you just fuck up the game and piss people off like bfa and sl.

Other MMOs manage it just fine. Why can't WoW?

GW2 literally has both options and keeps both types of players. Hell, Blizzard even stole Mythic Plus from GW2.

[Relapses]

Other MMOs manage it just fine. Why can't WoW?

GW2 literally has both options and keeps both types of players. Hell, Blizzard even stole Mythic Plus from GW2.

This whataboutism is the most infuriating aspect of this argument. If other games do it, that's good. If you're looking for a specific experience provided by that game then play that fucking game. Why is the onus on WoW to provide an experience that is tangible for every single person who's ever played a video game? Why is it implicitly a bad thing that WoW does not have progression systems for solo content? Why do we have to make WoW into the messiah of all video games and pretend that if Blizzard doesn't satisfy every aspect of the playerbase that's ever existed (or ever will exist) that it's a fault of the developers or (worse) that they're intentionally designing the game in spite of certain demographics?

[arkanon]

I mean one piece of mythic loot then 3 pieces of heroic?

Let's be honest with one another here... a heart to heart.

This isn't about single player content. We have that in droves arguably everything in the game minus dungeons, warfronts, pvp, and raids is single player.

This is just loot whores wanting to fuck the risk vs reward curve into the ground yet again to satisfy their loot lust.

It nearly always is. A certain minority are still pushing as hard as they can for mythic loot from world quests, they just find new and interesting ways of masking their intention. It ALWAYS boils down to "yeah but those things dont give me good enough loot" which is ALWAYS followed by "no real mythic raider would care what gear i have"

[MoanaLisa]

Again, Blizzard cannot force players to play in a group or be social. Niothing they do is going to make players who want to play sol suddenly join a group, especially with how toxic the player base is.

Technically true. However, Blizzard can and often has capped progression at a very early stage of a patch unless you do group content. It's one reason why you used to see large surges with new expansions, smaller surges with patches, followed by an exodus of players after a month because they are done. Some would be done anyway, true. But the retention piece of the game lies in characters being able to progress over the longer run of content. Blizzard has mostly not served that group well.

[Celement]

Other MMOs manage it just fine. Why can't WoW?

GW2 literally has both options and keeps both types of players. Hell, Blizzard even stole Mythic Plus from GW2.

GW2 has a dogshit endgame worse somehow then gw1.

It does different things better because it's a different game. People looking for that type of game should go to it...

- - - Updated - - -

Technically true. However, Blizzard can and often has capped progression at a very early stage of a patch unless you do group content. It's one reason why you used to see large surges with new expansions, smaller surges with patches, followed by an exodus of players after a month because they are done. Some would be done anyway, true. But the retention piece of the game lies in characters being able to progress over the longer run of content. Blizzard has mostly not served that group well.

Bullshit.

In fact its such bullshit it boggles the mind you could type it out.

Lfr, mop legos, wod apexsis, legion ap, bfa azerite traits, azerite powers , ap, corruption, and sl's ap renowned, and conduits.

There has been a metric shit ton of long term grindy progression systems in wow. The problem is the people saying they want them don't give a shit about them because they are mindless loot whores who break down the moment their ilv is lower.

I know I'm being hostile here but its tiring to see expansion after expansion having its end game be shit up to try and appeal to tiny timmy's whining just for him to not even realize he is getting exactly what he asked for because he can't just come out and admit to being a loot whore.

[Nymrohd]

So really, you're just assuming that 'people who enjoy the game' are raiders or people who do end game group content, when that's extremely far from the truth. It can be argued that Blizzard's laser focus on loot progression and end game raids instead of compelling story content is ruining the game for the millions of players who literally come back every expansion just to explore the world and enjoy the story.

I think this is the crucial part. We see a massive spike of returning players every expac. They leave about 3 months in. Why? And does it matter?
One could say it doesn't matter; it will happen inevitably, Blizz gets their box sales and a few months of subs and that's fine for them. But if it did matter, if they did want a stable sub base they'd have to find out why it works this way almost every single time.

Personally I think the issue is there is no progression for people who do not want to just infinitely repeat the same content. They'll check the raid, they'll do the dungeons a few times and then they are off. Maybe they will pick a month of sub here or there to check new content but that's it. We can assume these people do not have significant social ties in the game; they don't stick around long enough. Do they PuG? Do they check content through matchmaking? What can keep them around?

My opinion is, there is no long term progression path for these people. If they spend some hours on the game they will hit full normal gear from whatever way gives gear during that expac, hit a wall and then leave. There is no track to give them progression over a long period of time or if there is such a track, it is not obvious or accessible. Give them clear tasks to do when they log in with a clear goal in mind that will keep them busy until the next patch.

[Biomega]

I think this is the crucial part. We see a massive spike of returning players every expac. They leave about 3 months in. Why? And does it matter?
One could say it doesn't matter; it will happen inevitably, Blizz gets their box sales and a few months of subs and that's fine for them.

I've also been saying this for a while, and it seems to make sense from a business perspective.

HOWEVER

It kind of inverts the argument. "It's fine for them" is all well and good, but it's also, you know, ACTIVELY CAUSED BY THEM. They're purposely designing with that dynamic in mind, because it's cost-effective. The kind of player who buys an expansion, plays for 1-3 months, and then quits tends to be very hard to please almost no matter what. They're people who ride hype, who jump on something that's new and interesting and in the moment, and then get bored and jump on the next thing practically regardless of how good the previous thing was. Trying to create content good enough to retain that kind of player is almost impossible, SO THEY DON'T EVEN TRY. Instead, they double-down on what attracts that kind of player: a splashy release, a considerable hype window, and features that look attractive and interesting irrespective of their long-term viability: flashiness over substance.

That doesn't mean the long-term subbers are irrelevant, of course. Far from it. But there, too, that kind of stratification holds: people who sub for 1-3 months on a new tier, etc. Repeat the same model again: flashy hype, big splash, long-term viability doesn't really matter. That's why the story has become an absolute shit show, for example - because they don't care about a larger, intricately woven narrative. They care about periodic high points to coincide with seasons/expansions, that deliver cinematic sound-bite moments everyone can go OMG WOW over, and never you mind how it all fits together or how characters do or do not develop because they can just ex-machina at will and pull the next big moment out of a hat whenever they please.

Of course it's not like all of this is perfect, or as if WoW doesn't have any problems. Of course it does. But that's connected to how they're doing business there, sacrificing the long term in favor of short-term hype spikes they can plan to fall in around important business dates like quarterly reports or investor calls. That may not be good for the game's health in the long run, but the game can't survive the long run anyway; it'll die off eventually no matter what. And this seems to at least LOOK like a good cost/benefit ratio for them, as making content better gets more expensive but doesn't necessarily scale the number of new/retained players at the same rate. At least that - or something like it - appears to be their current business strategy. Whether or not that turns out to be a smart play is anyone's guess.

[Nymrohd]

I've also been saying this for a while, and it seems to make sense from a business perspective.

HOWEVER

It kind of inverts the argument. "It's fine for them" is all well and good, but it's also, you know, ACTIVELY CAUSED BY THEM. They're purposely designing with that dynamic in mind, because it's cost-effective. The kind of player who buys an expansion, plays for 1-3 months, and then quits tends to be very hard to please almost no matter what. They're people who ride hype, who jump on something that's new and interesting and in the moment, and then get bored and jump on the next thing practically regardless of how good the previous thing was. Trying to create content good enough to retain that kind of player is almost impossible, SO THEY DON'T EVEN TRY. Instead, they double-down on what attracts that kind of player: a splashy release, a considerable hype window, and features that look attractive and interesting irrespective of their long-term viability: flashiness over substance.

That doesn't mean the long-term subbers are irrelevant, of course. Far from it. But there, too, that kind of stratification holds: people who sub for 1-3 months on a new tier, etc. Repeat the same model again: flashy hype, big splash, long-term viability doesn't really matter. That's why the story has become an absolute shit show, for example - because they don't care about a larger, intricately woven narrative. They care about periodic high points to coincide with seasons/expansions, that deliver cinematic sound-bite moments everyone can go OMG WOW over, and never you mind how it all fits together or how characters do or do not develop because they can just ex-machina at will and pull the next big moment out of a hat whenever they please.

Of course it's not like all of this is perfect, or as if WoW doesn't have any problems. Of course it does. But that's connected to how they're doing business there, sacrificing the long term in favor of short-term hype spikes they can plan to fall in around important business dates like quarterly reports or investor calls. That may not be good for the game's health in the long run, but the game can't survive the long run anyway; it'll die off eventually no matter what. And this seems to at least LOOK like a good cost/benefit ratio for them, as making content better gets more expensive but doesn't necessarily scale the number of new/retained players at the same rate. At least that - or something like it - appears to be their current business strategy. Whether or not that turns out to be a smart play is anyone's guess.

I think it's simpler than that. It's just people who don't enjoy repeatable content.

[Triceron]

I think this is the crucial part. We see a massive spike of returning players every expac. They leave about 3 months in. Why? And does it matter?
One could say it doesn't matter; it will happen inevitably, Blizz gets their box sales and a few months of subs and that's fine for them. But if it did matter, if they did want a stable sub base they'd have to find out why it works this way almost every single time.

Personally I think the issue is there is no progression for people who do not want to just infinitely repeat the same content. They'll check the raid, they'll do the dungeons a few times and then they are off. Maybe they will pick a month of sub here or there to check new content but that's it. We can assume these people do not have significant social ties in the game; they don't stick around long enough. Do they PuG? Do they check content through matchmaking? What can keep them around?

My opinion is, there is no long term progression path for these people. If they spend some hours on the game they will hit full normal gear from whatever way gives gear during that expac, hit a wall and then leave. There is no track to give them progression over a long period of time or if there is such a track, it is not obvious or accessible. Give them clear tasks to do when they log in with a clear goal in mind that will keep them busy until the next patch.

Would be true if we didn't literally have other MMOs that retain solo players by providing progression solo content.

This argument literally comes from people who have only played WoW and never been exposed to more casual MMOs because they 'aren't for them'. It's a cycle of ignorance. 'The solution wouldn't work because the games where the do work aren't interesting to me'

[Biomega]

I think it's simpler than that. It's just people who don't enjoy repeatable content.

Sure, I guess you can characterize it like that. But I don't think strict labels work here, it's not like people go "this is repeatable content, therefore I hate it", it's more like this happens on its own because they get bored - and repeatable content just makes it more likely that they get bored more quickly, it's not a strict categorical thing. If the repeatable content was fun enough, they'd play for longer; not necessarily AS LONG as some other people, but they'd be fine with SOME repetition if it's fun enough.

[Relapses]

Would be true if we didn't literally have other MMOs that retain solo players by providing progression solo content.

This argument literally comes from people who have only played WoW and never been exposed to more casual MMOs because they 'aren't for them'. It's a cycle of ignorance. 'The solution wouldn't work because the games where the do work aren't interesting to me'

I can only speak for myself but I know the other experiences exist and I know they work for certain players of other games. I am not ignorant of this fact. I am skeptical that appeasing these players would have the purely positive upswing that you guys insist it would. You talk about how it'll "keep people subbed longer" and how Blizzard is "ignoring a huge section of potential players," but whenever it's brought up that this fundamentally changes the way the game operates currently, you guys double down and say "tough shit."

[Triceron]

I can only speak for myself but I know the other experiences exist and I know they work for certain players of other games. I am not ignorant of this fact. I am skeptical that appeasing these players would have the purely positive upswing that you guys insist it would. You talk about how it'll "keep people subbed longer" and how Blizzard is "ignoring a huge section of potential players," but whenever it's brought up that this fundamentally changes the way the game operates currently, you guys double down and say "tough shit."

What other possible answer would you expect?

If your only argument against having an omelette is that it'll cause eggs to be broken then the only outcome is never having eggs at all.

You could literally apply your argument against any feature that has been added to the game. Mythic plus, LFR, Brawls, scenarios, world quests, treasures, battle pets... Everything can be argued to have a negative impact against Mythic raiding if you merely use an argument that 'resources spent elsewhere doesn't guarantee appealing to any other crowd and is better spent on top end Raiding instead'.

So really, it's not skepticism. It's paranoia.

One of the biggest problems is looking at this as though it's meant to be a cure-all solution, when it's really only meant to be an extra content path for end game progression for casual players that doesn't already exist.

Whether it works to retain every player isn't the point. It's merely suggesting to take a feature that already works from other MMOs and incorporate it into WoW to appeal to a wider audience; something which Blizzard has already been doing for decades now. Every other argument being made here is to stomp out the fallacy that these systems somehow don't work or would kill mythic raiding, which really isn't true at all if we look at other MMOs that literally have a healthy population of both types of players, as well as the fact that even WoW has done the same for itself with systems like LFR and Mythic Plus hasn't outright killed top end raiding due to 'path of least resistance' concerns

[Osmeric]

Technically true. However, Blizzard can and often has capped progression at a very early stage of a patch unless you do group content. It's one reason why you used to see large surges with new expansions, smaller surges with patches, followed by an exodus of players after a month because they are done. Some would be done anyway, true. But the retention piece of the game lies in characters being able to progress over the longer run of content. Blizzard has mostly not served that group well.

Eventually players learn that if their content is just a little bit at release, there's no harm consuming it later all in one go. There's no reason to actually be there when the content is relevant to progression.

I found this was true in FF 14. If all you want to do is the MSQ, there's no reason to do it when each expansion is active.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

That's true on a solo player level but not a group player level. The penalty for not being around at the start is pretty steep - you won't be able to get into groups, and even if you do, the players still active (in terms of doing the content for gear) in the game at month 3+ are much worse than the players going crazy at release.

[Relapses]

What other possible answer would you expect?

If your only argument against having an omelette is that it'll cause eggs to be broken then the only outcome is never having eggs at all.

You could literally apply your argument against any feature that has been added to the game. Mythic plus, LFR, Brawls, scenarios, world quests, treasures, battle pets... Everything can be argued to have a negative impact against Mythic raiding if you merely use an argument that 'resources spent elsewhere doesn't guarantee appealing to any other crowd and is better spent on top end Raiding instead'.

For as many times as you and I have had this conversation, it's actually a bit amusing that you still don't seem to understand my argument. It isn't that I'm afraid solo content will take away from Mythic raiding content. It's that time and time again WoW players have proven they are only interested in obtaining rewards via the pathway of least resistance. If the solo progression system you're idealizing allows a player to become just as geared as a Mythic raider, it will negatively impact group content because the players who are engaging with this solo content are likely not going to engage with group content... thereby making negatively impacting the experience of people who enjoy group content. It shifts the purpose of WoW away from group content which I've said in as many words a million times over that I feel is not the direction this game should be taking.

One of the biggest problems is looking at this as though it's meant to be a cure-all solution, when it's really only meant to be an extra content path for end game progression for casual players that doesn't already exist.

Whether it works to retain every player isn't the point. It's merely suggesting to take a feature that already works from other MMOs and incorporate it into WoW to appeal to a wider audience; something which Blizzard has already been doing for decades now. Every other argument being made here is to stomp out the fallacy that these systems somehow don't work or would kill mythic raiding, which really isn't true at all if we look at other MMOs that literally have a healthy population of both types of players, as well as the fact that even WoW has done the same for itself with systems like LFR and Mythic Plus hasn't outright killed top end raiding due to 'path of least resistance' concerns

These other games were built from the ground up with solo progression systems as part of their DNA. WoW has always had solo content but it has, by design, never had a solo progression system. To pretend that "because it works in other games" is all the evidence needed and that WoW is somehow obligated to change on a fundamental level is an incredibly arrogant way to frame an argument. To further imply that people who don't agree with your perspective are "ignorant" is even more evidence that you're not really interested in discussing potential downsides or really addressing any of the problems a single player progression system would come with. It seems, to me, that you want a good 'ol fashioned circlejerk.

[enigma77]

There's enough single player content in this game.

[Triceron]

. If the solo progression system you're idealizing allows a player to become just as geared as a Mythic raider, it will negatively impact group content because the players who are engaging with this solo content are likely not going to engage with group content...

And I keep telling you that a solo progression path doesn't need to cross into Mythic Raid loot at all.

Both LFR and Mythic Plus Dungeons exist as progression paths that are tangential to Raiding, without crossing into its pathway. Both are progression alternatives.

The only difference here is LFR and Mythic Plus are still group oriented content whereas there literally is no solo alternative with its own progression pathway and gear to even remotely compare.

And guess what? Other MMOs do have solo progression content. And guess how they distribute loot? Through its own progression tiers. Just as LFR and Mythic Plus have their own loot and their own self contained progression, and people can choose to do only that progression content if they choose that to be their end game.

Your argument is merely assuming any alternative progression system like an LFR or Mythic Plus could only work if it contained Mythic Raiding equivalent loot, and that is the problem with your argument. It's a strawman argument to the entire conversation. Cuz literally no one here is saying Solo content should be rewarded with Mythic Plus gear while offering a much easier way to obtain it.

This is not comparable to the 25m to 10m raid options from Wrath.

These other games were built from the ground up with solo progression systems as part of their DNA.

Not true at all, and it's easy to tell you haven't actually played any of these games or know their history to even say this.

Practically every MMO that has solo content now has been built from being multiplayer oriented into opening up to casual audiences, because they literally copied WoW's casual appeal. Which is crazy to think that WoW itself has given almost no attention to its own casual audience, with Shadowlands having been one of the worst offenders that alienated a lot of fans. Like, Ion literally had to admit mistakes being made and make a statement for how they want to take Dragonflight back to focus on making the game fun for everyone again, starting with 9.2.5 and pushing forward with all the system improvements they're working on now.

To further imply that people who don't agree with your perspective are "ignorant

How many other MMOs do you play first hand that have solo progression and a strong solo-oriented community that exists alongside raiders?

[notthebees]

Why do people still reply to this one post and done bait poster? Look at their prior threads, they're a waste of time.

[deenman]

its really sad how an mmo like wow used to be so innovative when it came out,but these days it completly lags behind other mmo's in terms of systems and stuff to do (and no,it doesnt matter if wow has more players,if it even has at this point)

eso and gw2 always come to mind and how well they do some stuff that wow could copy,and do even better

the world and activities in those games are light years ahead of wow's,meanwile the world in wow and the stuff you can do outside of pvp or raiding/m+ is just dead

heck even a beastiary like in witcher 3 would be a fun addition

- - - Updated - - -

Why do people still reply to this one post and done bait poster? Look at their prior threads, they're a waste of time.

the op doesnt matter,the topic is very valid