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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And I keep telling you that a solo progression path doesn't need to cross into Mythic Raid loot at all.

    Both LFR and Mythic Plus Dungeons exist as progression paths that are tangential to Raiding, without crossing into its pathway. Both are progression alternatives.

    The only difference here is LFR and Mythic Plus are still group oriented content whereas there literally is no solo alternative with its own progression pathway and gear to even remotely compare.

    And guess what? Other MMOs do have solo progression content. And guess how they distribute loot? Through its own progression tiers. Just as LFR and Mythic Plus have their own loot and their own self contained progression, and people can choose to do only that progression content if they choose that to be their end game.

    Your argument is merely assuming any alternative progression system like an LFR or Mythic Plus could only work if it contained Mythic Raiding equivalent loot, and that is the problem with your argument. It's a strawman argument to the entire conversation. Cuz literally no one here is saying Solo content should be rewarded with Mythic Plus gear while offering a much easier way to obtain it.

    This is not comparable to the 25m to 10m raid options from Wrath.



    Not true at all, and it's easy to tell you haven't actually played any of these games or know their history to even say this.

    Practically every MMO that has solo content now has been built from being multiplayer oriented into opening up to casual audiences, because they literally copied WoW's casual appeal. Which is crazy to think that WoW itself has given almost no attention to its own casual audience, with Shadowlands having been one of the worst offenders that alienated a lot of fans. Like, Ion literally had to admit mistakes being made and make a statement for how they want to take Dragonflight back to focus on making the game fun for everyone again, starting with 9.2.5 and pushing forward with all the system improvements they're working on now.



    How many other MMOs do you play first hand that have solo progression and a strong solo-oriented community that exists alongside raiders?
    You're speaking in pretty certain terms about all casual players. Who's to say that WoW's current casual players aren't perfectly happy with the current system? And who's to say that Blizzard hasn't already collected data on whether engagement with solo content and progression systems is beneficial for the long term health of the game? You say that it's ironic that other games copied WoW and now "they do things better" but this seems like an argument tangled in personal bias. (You like the other games more, therefore you want WoW to be like those other games.)

    You seem near-convinced that adding a solo progression system will have no impact on group content and that my skepticism is ill-warranted. You keep asking me to qualify my opinions as if I need to be an expert on all MMOs on the market to understand what I personally do and do not want in the game. I've never implied that my singular opinion means anything more than what it is but you've repeatedly decided to speak as if you're representing an entire demographic of untapped WoW players... the unwashed masses just waiting for Blizzard to add a solo progression system so that WoW can once again have 95 billion players and conquer the rest of the known universe.

    I'd say history has proven this to be an extremely myopic viewpoint but maybe you're right, maybe solo and group content can live together in perfect harmony. It's just that if they were to ever add something like this... it's permanent. Whatever damage it has on the game will be, too. There's no takesies-backsies with this. If it's in, it's in forever. WoW is no longer a group content oriented MMO. It's a single player game with some MMO elements.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2022-08-15 at 03:18 AM.

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And I keep telling you that a solo progression path doesn't need to cross into Mythic Raid loot at all.

    Both LFR and Mythic Plus Dungeons exist as progression paths that are tangential to Raiding, without crossing into its pathway. Both are progression alternatives.

    The only difference here is LFR and Mythic Plus are still group oriented content whereas there literally is no solo alternative with its own progression pathway and gear to even remotely compare.

    And guess what? Other MMOs do have solo progression content. And guess how they distribute loot? Through its own progression tiers. Just as LFR and Mythic Plus have their own loot and their own self contained progression, and people can choose to do only that progression content if they choose that to be their end game.

    Your argument is merely assuming any alternative progression system like an LFR or Mythic Plus could only work if it contained Mythic Raiding equivalent loot, and that is the problem with your argument. It's a strawman argument to the entire conversation. Cuz literally no one here is saying Solo content should be rewarded with Mythic Plus gear while offering a much easier way to obtain it.

    This is not comparable to the 25m to 10m raid options from Wrath.



    Not true at all, and it's easy to tell you haven't actually played any of these games or know their history to even say this.

    Practically every MMO that has solo content now has been built from being multiplayer oriented into opening up to casual audiences, because they literally copied WoW's casual appeal. Which is crazy to think that WoW itself has given almost no attention to its own casual audience, with Shadowlands having been one of the worst offenders that alienated a lot of fans. Like, Ion literally had to admit mistakes being made and make a statement for how they want to take Dragonflight back to focus on making the game fun for everyone again, starting with 9.2.5 and pushing forward with all the system improvements they're working on now.



    How many other MMOs do you play first hand that have solo progression and a strong solo-oriented community that exists alongside raiders?
    Every attempt at this has made the game worse... lfr messed up dungeons till wod and made a massive gear barrier that new or late players had to climb over till guilds were willing to risk taking them into content with mechanics...

    We have Ap, conduits and a hist of other systems that were designed for these players that only succeeded in adding tedious chores to higher end players.

    You can't just skip the middle difficulty of the game because you want ilv. WoW isn't built like that it's been tried multiple times and it just ends with people road blocked and people claiming its worthless because mythic is better.

    Last patch you even got heroic raid gear as quest rewards and it apparently was so little as to not warrant notice.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    You're speaking in pretty certain terms about all casual players. Who's to say that WoW's current casual players aren't perfectly happy with the current system? And who's to say that Blizzard hasn't already collected data on whether engagement with solo content and progression systems is beneficial for the long term health of the game? You say that it's ironic that other games copied WoW and now "they do things better" but this seems like an argument tangled in personal bias. (You like the other games more, therefore you want WoW to be like those other games.)

    You seem near-convinced that adding a solo progression system will have no impact on group content and that my skepticism is ill-warranted. You keep asking me to qualify my opinions as if I need to be an expert on all MMOs on the market to understand what I personally do and do not want in the game. I've never implied that my singular opinion means anything more than what it is but you've repeatedly decided to speak as if you're representing an entire demographic of untapped WoW players... the unwashed masses just waiting for Blizzard to add a solo progression system so that WoW can once again have 95 billion players and conquer the rest of the known universe.

    I'd say history has proven this to be an extremely myopic viewpoint but maybe you're right, maybe solo and group content can live together in perfect harmony. It's just that if they were to ever add something like this... it's permanent. Whatever damage it has on the game will be, too. There's no takesies-backsies with this. If it's in, it's in forever. WoW is no longer a group content oriented MMO. It's a single player game with some MMO elements.
    You have many valid points to your argument, but I honestly see it as being naive and ignorant because it literally works in many other MMOs.

    At this point, we're going to have to agree to disagree, because without being able to share my actual experiences and without you being open to try them, there's nothing I can really bring to the discussion without being hand-waived away as being ineffective solutions. I'm not sure how you could consider anything an effective solution at all if all you play is WoW group content and tunnel vision the rest. It's clear to me that you're not only skeptical, you're literally resistant against the idea of any solution, because yiu fear that any attempt would merely repeat the 'mistakes of the past'. And frankly, it's more a result of Blizzard devs tunnel visioning their systems to be based around retaining MAUs and poorly implementing ways to open content more than anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    Every attempt at this has made the game worse... lfr messed up dungeons till wod and made a massive gear barrier that new or late players had to climb over till guilds were willing to risk taking them into content with mechanics...

    We have Ap, conduits and a hist of other systems that were designed for these players that only succeeded in adding tedious chores to higher end players.

    You can't just skip the middle difficulty of the game because you want ilv. WoW isn't built like that it's been tried multiple times and it just ends with people road blocked and people claiming its worthless because mythic is better.

    Last patch you even got heroic raid gear as quest rewards and it apparently was so little as to not warrant notice.
    Conduits and AP were shit systems that no one liked. i don't see that as a point against solo progression, because it was literally a shit system made for no one. Even this thread, no one pro-solo content would ever support MORE AP or conduit like systems.

  4. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Conduits and AP were shit systems that no one liked. i don't see that as a point against solo progression, because it was literally a shit system made for no one. Even this thread, no one pro-solo content would ever support MORE AP or conduit like systems.
    This was my personal experience, as well. Throughout SL I did exactly one piece of organized content, a single M0 Tirna Scithe. And with conduits I plugged something in that looked fun whenever the game told me I needed to and never thought about them again. Considering that they put limitations on changing conduits, which only realistically affected organized content players, I can only surmise that the system was actually intended for those players.

  5. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    This was my personal experience, as well. Throughout SL I did exactly one piece of organized content, a single M0 Tirna Scithe. And with conduits I plugged something in that looked fun whenever the game told me I needed to and never thought about them again. Considering that they put limitations on changing conduits, which only realistically affected organized content players, I can only surmise that the system was actually intended for those players.
    intended to punish us yes. for half the expansion it effectively removed the possibility of playing multiple specs at an optimal level. Forget switching between tanking healing and dpsing multiple times a week for dungeons or raids youd run out of conduit charges real fukin fast. This is what they called "meaningful player choice"

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You have many valid points to your argument, but I honestly see it as being naive and ignorant because it literally works in many other MMOs.

    At this point, we're going to have to agree to disagree, because without being able to share my actual experiences and without you being open to try them, there's nothing I can really bring to the discussion without being hand-waived away as being ineffective solutions. I'm not sure how you could consider anything an effective solution at all if all you play is WoW group content and tunnel vision the rest. It's clear to me that you're not only skeptical, you're literally resistant against the idea of any solution, because yiu fear that any attempt would merely repeat the 'mistakes of the past'. And frankly, it's more a result of Blizzard devs tunnel visioning their systems to be based around retaining MAUs and poorly implementing ways to open content more than anything.

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    Conduits and AP were shit systems that no one liked. i don't see that as a point against solo progression, because it was literally a shit system made for no one. Even this thread, no one pro-solo content would ever support MORE AP or conduit like systems.
    It was made for that linear progression you want... the game can't destroy heroic and mythic 5-13 because you want higher ilv...

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You have many valid points to your argument, but I honestly see it as being naive and ignorant because it literally works in many other MMOs.

    At this point, we're going to have to agree to disagree, because without being able to share my actual experiences and without you being open to try them, there's nothing I can really bring to the discussion without being hand-waived away as being ineffective solutions. I'm not sure how you could consider anything an effective solution at all if all you play is WoW group content and tunnel vision the rest. It's clear to me that you're not only skeptical, you're literally resistant against the idea of any solution, because yiu fear that any attempt would merely repeat the 'mistakes of the past'. And frankly, it's more a result of Blizzard devs tunnel visioning their systems to be based around retaining MAUs and poorly implementing ways to open content more than anything.
    I understand the cynicism but I personally have pretty strong feelings against the idea that the devs do anything to "pad MAUs." They are clearly designing for engagement metrics but I don't know if framing it as "padding" is the correct way to parse it. There's a lot of reasons the devs would want high engagement from their players and not all of them are insidious. (Though, admittedly, some of them are.) The devs, to me, seem to genuinely want to make a game that people want to play. They have a lot of high level ideas and sometimes it can come off as "we know better, trust us," which can be extremely frustrating -- but I think they're coming from a place of good intention. I will say that it kind of reached a head in 9.0 when many of those ideas were being violently rejected by all levels of the community but they really do seem to be righting the course these last few content patches and moving into DF.

    Also, for the record, I think you and I came to the same conclusion the last time we got into this. We're on ideologically opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to solo progression content. It's what it is but for what it's worth I do understand your points. I just wish there were a way for Blizzard to implement something like what you're asking for without it having a permanent impact on the game.

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    It was made for that linear progression you want... the game can't destroy heroic and mythic 5-13 because you want higher ilv...
    You could point at Garrisons being solo-oriented gameplay, it's not gonna be any different than being a shit system that no one asked for.

    There are plenty of solo viable progression content in other MMOs that aren't shit like AP, conduits or garrisons. How about literally choosing any one that actually fucking works instead of bitching at low hanging fruit?

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You could point at Garrisons being solo-oriented gameplay, it's not gonna be any different than being a shit system that no one asked for.

    There are plenty of solo viable progression content in other MMOs that aren't shit like AP, conduits or garrisons. How about literally choosing any one that actually fucking works instead of bitching at low hanging fruit?
    Because they suck and have no place at end game? Those other games don't have anything that resembles wow barring maybe ff at its hardest is comparable to some heroic raids.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    Because they suck and have no place at end game? Those other games don't have anything that resembles wow barring maybe ff at its hardest is comparable to some heroic raids.
    Solo progression _doesn't need to be equivalent of WoW's hardest comparable content_. It can literally exist as an alternative option to LFR or Mythic Plus and be handed solo-specific gear that is tailored for solo content.

    Literally add new affixes like 'Army of One' that has solo gear boost stats when you enter a dungeon or raid solo, and have difficulty be choosable at the start. When you choose to solo it locks you to it and all your drops are dedicated to providing Solo gear. The ilvls would be lower than anything you get elsewhere in group content.

    Now you have a progression path that is solo viable for end game without needing to be best of the best. It's literally a solo raid option for people who choose to play it. What is so hard about this? It literally exists in many other MMOs.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You could point at Garrisons being solo-oriented gameplay, it's not gonna be any different than being a shit system that no one asked for.

    There are plenty of solo viable progression content in other MMOs that aren't shit like AP, conduits or garrisons. How about literally choosing any one that actually fucking works instead of bitching at low hanging fruit?
    Do those other MMOs individually have m+, lfr, normal, heroic and mythic raids, casual pvp and rated bgs, as well as arena? Which other MMOs have all of that (one single mmo, not spread over all of them collectively), what is its name?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Solo progression _doesn't need to be equivalent of WoW's hardest comparable content_. It can literally exist as an alternative option to LFR or Mythic Plus and be handed solo-specific gear that is tailored for solo content.

    Literally add new affixes like 'Army of One' that has solo gear boost stats when you enter a dungeon or raid solo, and have difficulty be choosable at the start. When you choose to solo it locks you to it and all your drops are dedicated to providing Solo gear. The ilvls would be lower than anything you get elsewhere in group content.

    Now you have a progression path that is solo viable for end game without needing to be best of the best. It's literally a solo raid option for people who choose to play it. What is so hard about this? It literally exists in many other MMOs.
    Instead of saying "many MMOs have this" why can't you just NAME the games? Not everyone knows everything about every mmo out there. Just name these "many" MMOs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nobody uses Online forums anymore.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I understand the cynicism but I personally have pretty strong feelings against the idea that the devs do anything to "pad MAUs." They are clearly designing for engagement metrics but I don't know if framing it as "padding" is the correct way to parse it. There's a lot of reasons the devs would want high engagement from their players and not all of them are insidious. (Though, admittedly, some of them are.) The devs, to me, seem to genuinely want to make a game that people want to play. They have a lot of high level ideas and sometimes it can come off as "we know better, trust us," which can be extremely frustrating -- but I think they're coming from a place of good intention. I will say that it kind of reached a head in 9.0 when many of those ideas were being violently rejected by all levels of the community but they really do seem to be righting the course these last few content patches and moving into DF.

    Also, for the record, I think you and I came to the same conclusion the last time we got into this. We're on ideologically opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to solo progression content. It's what it is but for what it's worth I do understand your points. I just wish there were a way for Blizzard to implement something like what you're asking for without it having a permanent impact on the game.
    In my experiences with other MMOs with solo progression, group play is usually the path to least resistance while solo is literally there as a challenge mode or a time sink for those who don't like to group.

    Phantasy Star Online is still my go to example. A raid boss encounter in a group can be finished as a 10-15 minute fight. Solo you're looking at 20-min to an hour, depending on how well geared you are and how well yiu know the strat. Why the huge disparity? Because group content is built to be a fun co-operative experience and the easier path to rewards. Grouping is more 'casual' because you can die as much as you want and anyone can ressurect you in the fight, limitless times. All the group loses out on is DPS when you need to spend time picking people back up. Solo, you have no benefit of Ressurection; you can't afford to fuck up so you need to know the full fight. So soloing will actually take you a lot more time because you're likely going to have to run the same content more often without dying, or else you downrank your difficulty for easier encounters st the cost of less rewards. It's literally at your own pace for solo, while group content is the most efficient way to breeze through highest difficulty content.

    The game simply provides an option to solo for people who literally don't like being social. That's it.


    WoW is kind of the opposite because they dedicate the best rewards to the hardest modes, provide no alternative to group content to access those rewards, and grouping is often less forgiving and more stressful than any solo content in the game. The game literally punishes your group for not having enough DPS, or not having geared tanks, or too many people standing in fire etc etc. That design philosophy makes all grouping more toxic than it needs to be. And that's a huge part of WoW's flaws in design; its rigidly built to support a system which doesn't actually promote co-operative play, it promotes inter-dependant competitive play. And that's why there are more people who play WoW who literally do not do any group content at all than there are people who do. It's literally raid or die design philosophy.

    And I get if there are people who are fine with the system and want to keep it as is. But theres a difference in wanting it as is, and literally arguing that 'there isn't any alternative'. Yes, there are alternatives.

    All Blizzard needs to do is ensure the group content is designed as the path of least resistance. Low tier solo content could be undertuned and on par with LFR, and no one will give a shit. Any higher tier loot progression should intentionally be designed to be harder solo than in a group, because of lacking class utility and and having less room for error. Simple as that.

    Having solo mode also allows people to practice dungeons and raid encounters at their own pace. People can feel free to learn the mechanics without 9-24 other people yelling at you when they fuck up. That's literally how I treated solo modes in some of the other MMO's I played; just as a way to practice dodging some boss shit or timing my rotations for a phase at my own pace. It builds confidence and experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Do those other MMOs individually have m+, lfr, normal, heroic and mythic raids, casual pvp and rated bgs, as well as arena? Which other MMOs have all of that (one single mmo, not spread over all of them collectively), what is its name?

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    Instead of saying "many MMOs have this" why can't you just NAME the games? Not everyone knows everything about every mmo out there. Just name these "many" MMOs.
    Like practically half of WoW's modern content is lifted from Guild Wars 2. Granted, GW2 doesn't bank on loot progression like WoW does, but it's also a great template to see how a game can successfully provide challenging progression content without requiring a carrot on a stick to string you along through a grind.

    PSO2 also has a very flexible encounter system that has multiple difficulties for encounters, multiple ways to engage in them, and providing a solo option on top of that. And it works out because most top end gear is crafted rather than loot drops, so everyone has a chance to get the best gear st their own pace. Group content is always the quickest and most efficient way to it, but by no means the only way to get the best gear.

    ESO is practically built as a soloable MMO. Not the route I think WoW needs to take, but it could certainly learn some lessons here. And I think FF14 has a robust crafting system that could really take some lessons from. Like, you could literally make crafting your entire gameplay experience in this game.

    And no, these games do not have the exact systems that WoW does. They don't need to, because nothing about solo progression actually negatively impacts any other progression system. Like,. What does it matter to a Arena player or a Mythic Plus player or a Heroic raider? The option isn't designed for them anyways, so there's no point in even mentioning them.

    What does Arena mean to a Heroic Raider or Mythic Plus player? Nothing at all. They're all different progression systems. Solo would just be yet another one.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-15 at 07:50 AM.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Solo progression _doesn't need to be equivalent of WoW's hardest comparable content_. It can literally exist as an alternative option to LFR or Mythic Plus and be handed solo-specific gear that is tailored for solo content.

    Literally add new affixes like 'Army of One' that has solo gear boost stats when you enter a dungeon or raid solo, and have difficulty be choosable at the start. When you choose to solo it locks you to it and all your drops are dedicated to providing Solo gear. The ilvls would be lower than anything you get elsewhere in group content.

    Now you have a progression path that is solo viable for end game without needing to be best of the best. It's literally a solo raid option for people who choose to play it. What is so hard about this? It literally exists in many other MMOs.
    It will never work because people who are asking for solo content non stop on forums never shut up, they added 'army of one' ? you and your kind will come to forums and spam because it didn't have X thing or it didn't meet the stupid fantasy of expectations you have in your head.

  14. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    That's true on a solo player level but not a group player level. The penalty for not being around at the start is pretty steep - you won't be able to get into groups, and even if you do, the players still active (in terms of doing the content for gear) in the game at month 3+ are much worse than the players going crazy at release.
    Plus you will never get to catch up in knowledge. It takes time to learn each of the dungeons and all the routes. Start late and you cannot easily catch up, especially if you are a tank.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    For as many times as you and I have had this conversation, it's actually a bit amusing that you still don't seem to understand my argument. It isn't that I'm afraid solo content will take away from Mythic raiding content. It's that time and time again WoW players have proven they are only interested in obtaining rewards via the pathway of least resistance. If the solo progression system you're idealizing allows a player to become just as geared as a Mythic raider, it will negatively impact group content because the players who are engaging with this solo content are likely not going to engage with group content... thereby making negatively impacting the experience of people who enjoy group content. It shifts the purpose of WoW away from group content which I've said in as many words a million times over that I feel is not the direction this game should be taking.
    Is someone arguing for this? Can you quote where they are doing so? I have seen arguments for being geared as a Heroic raider and usually at a slower pace. Haven't seen arguments for this strawman I constantly see people against solo progression prop up to attack.
    If anything the people who talked about Mythic level gear used to be M+ players who don't want to have to raid to be competitive or people who want to squish the ilvl curve by removing Mythic (who usually are doing so from a Heroic raider or M+ player perspective).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Solo progression _doesn't need to be equivalent of WoW's hardest comparable content_. It can literally exist as an alternative option to LFR or Mythic Plus and be handed solo-specific gear that is tailored for solo content.

    Literally add new affixes like 'Army of One' that has solo gear boost stats when you enter a dungeon or raid solo, and have difficulty be choosable at the start. When you choose to solo it locks you to it and all your drops are dedicated to providing Solo gear. The ilvls would be lower than anything you get elsewhere in group content.

    Now you have a progression path that is solo viable for end game without needing to be best of the best. It's literally a solo raid option for people who choose to play it. What is so hard about this? It literally exists in many other MMOs.
    You could just have different types of loot that work better for different content. PvP gearing works fine. It's not reinventing the wheel to have something similar elsewhere. Imo M+ could use that as well so that M+ players don't feel compelled to raid because raid trinkets are almost always better (and vice versa for raiders).
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2022-08-15 at 09:55 AM.

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Solo progression _doesn't need to be equivalent of WoW's hardest comparable content_. It can literally exist as an alternative option to LFR or Mythic Plus and be handed solo-specific gear that is tailored for solo content.

    Literally add new affixes like 'Army of One' that has solo gear boost stats when you enter a dungeon or raid solo, and have difficulty be choosable at the start. When you choose to solo it locks you to it and all your drops are dedicated to providing Solo gear. The ilvls would be lower than anything you get elsewhere in group content.

    Now you have a progression path that is solo viable for end game without needing to be best of the best. It's literally a solo raid option for people who choose to play it. What is so hard about this? It literally exists in many other MMOs.
    So Mage tower?

    I would argue that works those sets are highly sought after.

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    So Mage tower?

    I would argue that works those sets are highly sought after.
    Yes, Mage Tower was great.

    It was also treated exclusive for one expansion amd only offered content that was one-and-done. Otherwise the content itself was really enjoyable, and I think sustainable had they used the format for progression content somehow.

    They don't have to make it into a pure grind either. Like why not offer that type of gsmepkay through 'scenarios' that tell the end-game story, instead of literally packing all story into raids snd forcing people to enjoy any story progress through group content. Story and raiding should be two separate things, and many MMOs already do a great job at separating the two. It's not like anyone doing Mythic gives a fuck about story. It's only really punishing the people who play solo and do quests and explore the world who have little interest in grinding the end game. A scenario progression option just for the story would be a fine alternative.

    Would it solve all problems? No. It's not meant to. It's literally a reason and a way for people to have something to do where they literally have nothing to do but to unsub. And it's sad that Blizzard has fostered a 'raid or die' environment that not only perpetuates the problem, but has made it an expectation for people who don't give a fuck about non-raiders.

    It's always the same excuse with 'they don't need the content because they'd unsub anyways'. Well why the fuck would LFR and Mythic Plus exist then? They're there for player retention for non-raiders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonflight10 View Post
    It will never work because people who are asking for solo content non stop on forums never shut up, they added 'army of one' ? you and your kind will come to forums and spam because it didn't have X thing or it didn't meet the stupid fantasy of expectations you have in your head.
    'you and yiur kind'

    What is my kind? I don't play solo content. At all.

    I am a power gamer and a former WoW raider who isn't subbed to modern WoW. Hell most of my lrveling is done through dungeons or professions, and using any in-game (non paid) means of gaining an EXP boost advantage. Questing is literally a means to an end for me, and i usually wait til Blizz opens up flying in the open world before I even sub in to play. I've skipped questing altogether in the expansions where they gated flight altogether, and fast-tracked leveling through stuff like invasions or dungeon runs instead.

    Don't projecting your bullshit if you don't understand the argument I'm making and through what means I'm making it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Plus you will never get to catch up in knowledge. It takes time to learn each of the dungeons and all the routes. Start late and you cannot easily catch up, especially if you are a tank.

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    Is someone arguing for this? Can you quote where they are doing so? I have seen arguments for being geared as a Heroic raider and usually at a slower pace. Haven't seen arguments for this strawman I constantly see people against solo progression prop up to attack.
    If anything the people who talked about Mythic level gear used to be M+ players who don't want to have to raid to be competitive or people who want to squish the ilvl curve by removing Mythic (who usually are doing so from a Heroic raider or M+ player perspective).

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    You could just have different types of loot that work better for different content. PvP gearing works fine. It's not reinventing the wheel to have something similar elsewhere. Imo M+ could use that as well so that M+ players don't feel compelled to raid because raid trinkets are almost always better (and vice versa for raiders).
    That's pretty much how I would propose solo content working in WoW if we are talking about adapting existing content into solo-viable modes.

    Ideally, they don't even have to do that, and merely have all Solo content be capped one tier below max, like stopping at Heroic ilvl, or be way overtuned so that any mythic mode would be way easier in group content than solo. Treat it more as a bragging rights top-end difficulty mode while the other solo difficulty modes get undertuned to be enjoyable by the rest.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-15 at 03:26 PM.

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    All Blizzard needs to do is ensure the group content is designed as the path of least resistance. Low tier solo content could be undertuned and on par with LFR, and no one will give a shit. Any higher tier loot progression should intentionally be designed to be harder solo than in a group, because of lacking class utility and and having less room for error. Simple as that.
    This is not nearly as easy or simple as you are implying. The game is very clearly not designed around competitive solo play. The MT exists but it's extremely clunky and some classes are far, far easier than others. If solo progression content becomes a mainstay there will be a lot of pressure on Blizzard to balance the game for this solo content. We'd be introducing a third layer of balance for Blizzard to consider for all 38 classes and specs in the game. I simply cannot see this happening unless they were to either a.) homogenize classes to the point where all classes have access to all abilities and the only difference is the color of each class on the DPS meter or b.) they provide balancing for solo content only. The former is incredibly unlikely as Blizzard has been purposefully moving away from homogenization in recent years and the latter is unlikely because they've never done it for M+ despite this clearly causing some pretty massive balancing concerns over the past few years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Ideally, they don't even have to do that, and merely have all Solo content be capped one tier below max, like stopping at Heroic ilvl, or be way overtuned so that any mythic mode would be way easier in group content than solo. Treat it more as a bragging rights top-end difficulty mode while the other solo difficulty modes get undertuned to be enjoyable by the rest.
    If the solo challenges are legitimately difficult then I don't think anybody would be happy if the rewards cap at Heroic. If you're asking Blizzard to go through the effort of balancing this they're going to want people to engage with the content. Leaving the rewards capped at Heroic would disappoint everybody except the extremely small subsection of players who are insisting solo content would keep them subbed but apparently do not care about their respective power in other forms of content.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2022-08-15 at 03:58 PM.

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    This is not nearly as easy or simple as you are implying. The game is very clearly not designed around competitive solo play. The MT exists but it's extremely clunky and some classes are far, far easier than others. If solo progression content becomes a mainstay there will be a lot of pressure on Blizzard to balance the game for this solo content.
    It only needs to be balanced to a point where it's acceptable and works. Any fine-tune balancing to the comparative level of Normal-Heroic-Mythic is unnecessary, in the same way LFR or Mythic Plus dungeons do not use the same metrics to balance their own game modes.

    LFR literally does away with balance completely. It's literally dumbed down to the point where everyone gets gear for merely participating and not standing in fire. That's exactly how the core Solo mode can be implemented and presented. One easy difficulty mode, mediocre gear rewards, and left as an alternative to LFR for people who want it. Like, would anyone seriously complain if LFR gear was offered out in a solo mode that is tuned to the challenge level of LFR? I doubt it.

    Anything beyond that can be addressed as it would fit best in WoW. And I can't say how it would fit best because WoW literally has done nothing comparable with its systems to even begin a conversation. All I can do is point at how other games has systems like what we're talking about, and how they manage to make it work in the context of their own games. And some of those games DO have alternative challenge mode group content, which is usually treated as a completely separate progression type from the commonly solo-group shared ones.

    As an example, Mythic Raiding would be treated as its own hardcore group-oriented "Best of the Best" raiding type that doesn't get touched by any other game mode. All alternative progression game modes would literally be treated in tandem with Mythic Plus/Heroic Raiding or lower. And we literally have Mythic Plus existing as an alternative to raiding already, which is already a strong example for how alternative end-game progression systems can fit in without affecting Raiding. Because let's face it, no one is asking for the removal of Mythic Plus just because we ALL KNOW it has an impact on Raids in some form. And the same goes for LFR, even if people will openly complain about its existence regardless of what impact it has on higher difficulty raids.

    If the solo challenges are legitimately difficult then I don't think anybody would be happy if the rewards cap at Heroic. If you're asking Blizzard to go through the effort of balancing this they're going to want people to engage with the content. Leaving the rewards capped at Heroic would disappoint everybody except the extremely small subsection of players who are insisting solo content would keep them subbed but apparently do not care about their respective power in other forms of content.
    Mythic Plus can arguably be as difficult as Mythic Raiding when you get up to a certain point, and the gear you get always falls below Mythic Raiding. Do you consider this a problem for Mythic Plus players? Do complaints over gear parity with Mythic Raiding need to be legitimized?

    I think Mythic Plus is fine, and despite any ones complaints that the gear should be Mythic Raid equivalent, it's fine as it is as offering 10-15 points less than Mythic Raid (if that's how it still works AFAIK). Just because people complain about a system doesn't mean it needs to be immediately legitimized as reason to abstain from having the progression system. Like, would anyone argue that Mythic Plus should be removed because it doesn't satisfy everyone's loot expectations?

    And it doesn't matter if it appeals to a small or big subsection of any group. If you're worried about appealing to small groups and keeping them satisfied, then we may as well talk about the elephant in the room - Mythic Raiding appeals to the smallest demographic of WoW players in the game.

    I'm of the mindset that there are many different types of WoW players with different types of needs. I don't think shoe-horning them all into the same progression system is an ideal way to roll out end-game progression content, and has always been a failing on WoW's ability to maintain its hold on its own casual audience. I merely point out systems in other games that are effective in helping retain some of that, and offer more variety for people who literally have been going decades without actually being able to enjoy the end-game story conclusions because they literally do not raid.

    I mean even to make a basic point on newbies experiencing WoW's story for the first time - most newbies can't actually experience the story because half of every expansion's story is locked behind Raids which they have no chance of attempting as they level through content. There's no dumbed down solo-viable sightseeing mode that lets you see the conclusion of any expansion. You literally have to youtube it. As a matter or principle, I think this is backwards design, because there are many MMO's that clearly separate story from group-based progression content and doesn't limit everyone's ability to see the story as it should be enjoyed. Again, this point doesn't really have anything to do with solo-end game progression, but it's still a matter of pointing out how short-sighted WoW's design has become in comparison to other games.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-15 at 04:30 PM.

  19. #359
    Again, path of least resistance. In your example, there's a version of solo content which is legitimately difficult, is balanced well and is engaging for players who prefer solo content. A player can spend hundreds of hours perfecting their class, making sure they get all the interrupts and truly master their craft. They then get the same reward that a guy who listed his +10 in the group finder got in 12 minutes with a bunch of players who didn't even speak English. If you don't think that this is going to impact the way that people interact with the feature I don't know what to say. 99% of players will take the latter group option; the only way to keep the former option competitive is to provide rewards which are on-par with the hardest difficulty content in the game. And the only way to justify that content existing like that is to make sure it's balanced properly, a monumental task that wouldn't be necessary if they simply never bothered to endeavor it in the first place.

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Again, path of least resistance. In your example, there's a version of solo content which is legitimately difficult, is balanced well and is engaging for players who prefer solo content. A player can spend hundreds of hours perfecting their class, making sure they get all the interrupts and truly master their craft. They then get the same reward that a guy who listed his +10 in the group finder got in 12 minutes with a bunch of players who didn't even speak English. If you don't think that this is going to impact the way that people interact with the feature I don't know what to say. 99% of players will take the latter group option; the only way to keep the former option competitive is to provide rewards which are on-par with the hardest difficulty content in the game. And the only way to justify that content existing like that is to make sure it's balanced properly, a monumental task that wouldn't be necessary if they simply never bothered to endeavor it in the first place.
    You could literally apply this same logic right now to LFR and Mythic Plus.

    I don't see what you're actually complaining about. Except for the use of bullshit numbers to try and make it sound like it's a bigger problem than it actually would be.

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