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  1. #361
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Eventually players learn that if their content is just a little bit at release, there's no harm consuming it later all in one go. There's no reason to actually be there when the content is relevant to progression.

    I found this was true in FF 14. If all you want to do is the MSQ, there's no reason to do it when each expansion is active.
    I do this myself any more. Starting after Legion I usually play for 2-3 months at the start of an expansion and a couple of months at the end. If there's some interesting stuff in the middle I'll give it a month and see. I've been around longer for SL because I'm a collector and there's been a lot of stuff to collect. People make light of this kind of thing but I think it's about a 6-7 on the fun scale, I like it well enough, and the rewards are OK.

    My 'project' for the next expansion is to avoid as much as possible spoilers of any kind and see if it's any different coming in cold (or as cold as is possible). I don't read the dragonflight forum and have skipped the news since it's been announced.
    Two rules for living: "Don't go around hurting each other. Try to understand things." — William Least Heat-Moon (Blue Highways)

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You could literally apply this same logic right now to LFR and Mythic Plus.

    I don't see what you're actually complaining about. Except for the use of bullshit numbers to try and make it sound like it's a bigger problem than it actually would be.
    If the rewards are not commensurate with difficulty then WoW's entire vertical progression system falls apart. You're asking for Blizzard to spend countless development hours to add a fourth pillar of progression content to the game then pretending it'd be perfectly fine if nobody bothered to engage with it because the rewards are intentionally knee-capped at too low of an item level.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    If the rewards are not commensurate with difficulty then WoW's entire vertical progression system falls apart. You're asking for Blizzard to spend countless development hours to add a fourth pillar of progression content to the game then pretending it'd be perfectly fine if nobody bothered to engage with it because the rewards are intentionally knee-capped at too low of an item level.
    This already exists with LFR and Mythic Plus.

    Mythic Plus and LFR are already vertically capped. You can't progress after a certain point, you have to wait for new content to be released. If you choose to improve your character beyond sticking to those progression types, then your choices leads you to other types of progression systems.

    Normal+ raiding is not an extension of LFR. It is a DIFFERENT progression system. Normal+ raiding is not an extension of Mythic Plus. It is a DIFFERENT progression system. People can choose to exclusively play LFR or exclusively play Mythic Plus as their choice of end-game progression.

    I mean, are we somehow assuming every LFR or Mythic Plus player inevitably jumps into Normal+ raiding? That everyone actually gets funneled into Mythic Raiding at some inevitable point? Because that's the picture I feel like you're trying to paint here with the arguments over ilvl being the only incentive to do any content.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-15 at 07:54 PM.

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    This already exists with LFR and Mythic Plus.

    I don't see you flipping your shit and implying they should be removed or prevented from being added to the game.

    Mythic Plus and LFR are already vertically capped. You can't progress after a certain point. If you choose to improve your character beyond sticking to those progression types, then your choices leads you to other types of progression systems.

    Normal+ raiding is not an extension of LFR. It is a DIFFERENT progression system. Normal+ raiding is not an extension of Mythic Plus. It is a DIFFERENT progression system.

    And yet it doesn't really get in the way of people choosing to exclusively play LFR or exclusively play Mythic Plus as their choice of end-game progression.

    I mean, are we somehow assuming every LFR or Mythic Plus player inevitably jumps into Normal+ raiding? That everyone actually gets funneled into Mythic Raiding at some inevitable point? Because that's the picture I feel like you're trying to paint here with the arguments over ilvl being the only incentive to do any content.
    Once again, the suggestion you have is for a system that is wholly unlike anything in the game currently. Raiding goes without saying. M+ was an iteration of Challenge Modes. The closest thing to what you're describing is MT but you've mentioned both solo dungeons and solo raids at various points of this discussion so that would be quite a departure from anything Blizzard has developed thus far. And then on top of making a vague, broadly defined suggestion, you are now perfectly fine with knee-capping the rewards from this gargantuan development effort on Blizzard's part at a item level that would make this brand new system use-case almost non-existent. It seems like a lot of effort only to have the feature end up like the Brawler's Guild. If they're going to make something like this a thing, it needs to scale up to Mythic level or nobody will engage with it. And if it does, the problem of this new solo content taking away from people currently doing group content is once again relevant. Your insistence that the solo progression gear stops at Heroic item level seems like a cop-out to defeat the concerns I have without addressing the fact that if it were rolled out like this that engagement with the system would be nearly non-existent.

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Once again, the suggestion you have is for a system that is wholly unlike anything in the game currently. Raiding goes without saying. M+ was an iteration of Challenge Modes. The closest thing to what you're describing is MT but you've mentioned both solo dungeons and solo raids at various points of this discussion so that would be quite a departure from anything Blizzard has developed thus far. And then on top of making a vague, broadly defined suggestion, you are now perfectly fine with knee-capping the rewards from this gargantuan development effort on Blizzard's part at a item level that would make this brand new system use-case almost non-existent. It seems like a lot of effort only to have the feature end up like the Brawler's Guild. If they're going to make something like this a thing, it needs to scale up to Mythic level or nobody will engage with it. And if it does, the problem of this new solo content taking away from people currently doing group content is once again relevant. Your insistence that the solo progression gear stops at Heroic item level seems like a cop-out to defeat the concerns I have without addressing the fact that if it were rolled out like this that engagement with the system would be nearly non-existent.
    There's a huge disconnect between what I'm presenting and what you're assuming must be in order to be worth adding to the game.

    Other than Mythic Raiding, there is NO PROGRESSION system that offers Mythic gear. Yet there are PLENTY of progression systems that do not offer Mythic Raiding rewards or anything comparable to its ilvl.

    I mean you may as well be arguing that no one does LFR (or any progression below Mythic Raiding for that matter) because any casual who doesn't want to put effort into raiding would merely opt for the path of least resistance and pay for boosts in Mythic instead. It's quite a ridiculous argument to me.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-15 at 10:05 PM.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes, Mage Tower was great.

    It was also treated exclusive for one expansion amd only offered content that was one-and-done. Otherwise the content itself was really enjoyable, and I think sustainable had they used the format for progression content somehow.

    They don't have to make it into a pure grind either. Like why not offer that type of gsmepkay through 'scenarios' that tell the end-game story, instead of literally packing all story into raids snd forcing people to enjoy any story progress through group content. Story and raiding should be two separate things, and many MMOs already do a great job at separating the two. It's not like anyone doing Mythic gives a fuck about story. It's only really punishing the people who play solo and do quests and explore the world who have little interest in grinding the end game. A scenario progression option just for the story would be a fine alternative.

    Would it solve all problems? No. It's not meant to. It's literally a reason and a way for people to have something to do where they literally have nothing to do but to unsub. And it's sad that Blizzard has fostered a 'raid or die' environment that not only perpetuates the problem, but has made it an expectation for people who don't give a fuck about non-raiders.

    It's always the same excuse with 'they don't need the content because they'd unsub anyways'. Well why the fuck would LFR and Mythic Plus exist then? They're there for player retention for non-raiders.

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    'you and yiur kind'

    What is my kind? I don't play solo content. At all.

    I am a power gamer and a former WoW raider who isn't subbed to modern WoW. Hell most of my lrveling is done through dungeons or professions, and using any in-game (non paid) means of gaining an EXP boost advantage. Questing is literally a means to an end for me, and i usually wait til Blizz opens up flying in the open world before I even sub in to play. I've skipped questing altogether in the expansions where they gated flight altogether, and fast-tracked leveling through stuff like invasions or dungeon runs instead.

    Don't projecting your bullshit if you don't understand the argument I'm making and through what means I'm making it

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    That's pretty much how I would propose solo content working in WoW if we are talking about adapting existing content into solo-viable modes.

    Ideally, they don't even have to do that, and merely have all Solo content be capped one tier below max, like stopping at Heroic ilvl, or be way overtuned so that any mythic mode would be way easier in group content than solo. Treat it more as a bragging rights top-end difficulty mode while the other solo difficulty modes get undertuned to be enjoyable by the rest.
    Your argument is unrealistic and sounds like a child having sort of a tantrum

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by dragonflight10 View Post
    Your argument is unrealistic and sounds like a child having sort of a tantrum
    Did you have a point to make? I'm open to having a conversation if you want one, otherwise what you're saying here isn't amounting to much more than trolling.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-16 at 01:01 AM.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I do this myself any more. Starting after Legion I usually play for 2-3 months at the start of an expansion and a couple of months at the end. If there's some interesting stuff in the middle I'll give it a month and see. I've been around longer for SL because I'm a collector and there's been a lot of stuff to collect. People make light of this kind of thing but I think it's about a 6-7 on the fun scale, I like it well enough, and the rewards are OK.

    My 'project' for the next expansion is to avoid as much as possible spoilers of any kind and see if it's any different coming in cold (or as cold as is possible). I don't read the dragonflight forum and have skipped the news since it's been announced.
    Multiplayer play also has the effect of creating FOMO: you need to do the content when it's relevant to have large numbers of others to play it with.

    For solo play, Blizzard would likely add FOMO artificially, and timegate the content so you have to stay subbed during the period when the content is accessible, then removing the content afterwards.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes, Mage Tower was great.

    It was also treated exclusive for one expansion amd only offered content that was one-and-done. Otherwise the content itself was really enjoyable, and I think sustainable had they used the format for progression content somehow.

    They don't have to make it into a pure grind either. Like why not offer that type of gsmepkay through 'scenarios' that tell the end-game story, instead of literally packing all story into raids snd forcing people to enjoy any story progress through group content. Story and raiding should be two separate things, and many MMOs already do a great job at separating the two. It's not like anyone doing Mythic gives a fuck about story. It's only really punishing the people who play solo and do quests and explore the world who have little interest in grinding the end game. A scenario progression option just for the story would be a fine alternative.

    Would it solve all problems? No. It's not meant to. It's literally a reason and a way for people to have something to do where they literally have nothing to do but to unsub. And it's sad that Blizzard has fostered a 'raid or die' environment that not only perpetuates the problem, but has made it an expectation for people who don't give a fuck about non-raiders.

    It's always the same excuse with 'they don't need the content because they'd unsub anyways'. Well why the fuck would LFR and Mythic Plus exist then? They're there for player retention for non-raiders.

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    'you and yiur kind'

    What is my kind? I don't play solo content. At all.

    I am a power gamer and a former WoW raider who isn't subbed to modern WoW. Hell most of my lrveling is done through dungeons or professions, and using any in-game (non paid) means of gaining an EXP boost advantage. Questing is literally a means to an end for me, and i usually wait til Blizz opens up flying in the open world before I even sub in to play. I've skipped questing altogether in the expansions where they gated flight altogether, and fast-tracked leveling through stuff like invasions or dungeon runs instead.

    Don't projecting your bullshit if you don't understand the argument I'm making and through what means I'm making it

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    That's pretty much how I would propose solo content working in WoW if we are talking about adapting existing content into solo-viable modes.

    Ideally, they don't even have to do that, and merely have all Solo content be capped one tier below max, like stopping at Heroic ilvl, or be way overtuned so that any mythic mode would be way easier in group content than solo. Treat it more as a bragging rights top-end difficulty mode while the other solo difficulty modes get undertuned to be enjoyable by the rest.
    The issue is single player has to be one and done to be good otherwise it becomes repetitive quickly like torghast.

  10. #370
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    The issue is single player has to be one and done to be good otherwise it becomes repetitive quickly like torghast.
    See, I don't fully agree with that. Many genres are made to be repetitive. Instead the focus is on the gameplay itself being fun. WoW had very responsive gameplay and robust class design. Repeatable content works in it just fine as we can see with M+ and to a lesser extent raids. They just never nailed it. Personally I am convinced that Torghast gameplay with Island Expeditions variety of environments, encounters and rewards would work; obviously moreso with some gear progression (which I will keep repeating was the original plan for Torghast; it was supposed to be a fourth way to fill your Vault).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    If the rewards are not commensurate with difficulty then WoW's entire vertical progression system falls apart. You're asking for Blizzard to spend countless development hours to add a fourth pillar of progression content to the game then pretending it'd be perfectly fine if nobody bothered to engage with it because the rewards are intentionally knee-capped at too low of an item level.
    I mean what would be acceptable as a proposed item level? I think the most rewarding it has ever been is the Conquest track in BfA. So if solo progression had rewards on a track, the first cycle was a Normal Raid ilvl and then there are two more cycles at Heroic Raid ilvl. So you'd start getting Heroic loot about two months in the patch and you'd have full heroic 4-5 months in. By that point heroic raiders have moved on to early Mythic bosses and M+ players likely have full Mythic gear from Vault. Could be crafting based with the rewards being weekly BoP materials from M+ or Normal/Heroic raids. Add some generic reagents that are available in all difficulties of dungeons and raids and you'd revitalize Heroic Dungeons (or make M0 available to matchmaking after the first patch?) and increase LFR traffic
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2022-08-16 at 05:55 AM.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    The issue is single player has to be one and done to be good otherwise it becomes repetitive quickly like torghast.
    depends on the game,some have great replayability,grim dawn has 9 base ''classes'',and you can combine 2,leading to 36 new classes,and every single one has entire sets,items that support them or alter them etc,just on the classes alone you have hundrets of easy hours alone,not even mentioning the actual game content

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    depends on the game,some have great replayability,grim dawn has 9 base ''classes'',and you can combine 2,leading to 36 new classes,and every single one has entire sets,items that support them or alter them etc,just on the classes alone you have hundrets of easy hours alone,not even mentioning the actual game content
    The problem comes down to class design. You have to go with pass fail mechanics or you have to design around every single spec...

    WoW really doesn't suit that kind of gameplay.

  13. #373
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Multiplayer play also has the effect of creating FOMO: you need to do the content when it's relevant to have large numbers of others to play it with.

    For solo play, Blizzard would likely add FOMO artificially, and timegate the content so you have to stay subbed during the period when the content is accessible, then removing the content afterwards.
    1st paragraph: I don't do a lot of group content. I will not play with strangers unless it's a friend of a friend. Dungeons once on normal just to see them. One pass of LFR for the same reason.

    2nd paragraph: I don't care. FOMO isn't anything that bothers me. It's a little bit of a contradiction I guess because "collectors" as a group are perceived as interested in collecting everything. Solo players as a rule seem to have less of a need (in my experience) to blare out their wonderfulness to the world at large.

    I collect because I like it but if I don't get everything it's no big deal. I'm a little bit OCD in real life but not about this. Not one bit.
    Two rules for living: "Don't go around hurting each other. Try to understand things." — William Least Heat-Moon (Blue Highways)

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    The problem comes down to class design. You have to go with pass fail mechanics or you have to design around every single spec...

    WoW really doesn't suit that kind of gameplay.
    werent you talking about singleplayer?

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    werent you talking about singleplayer?
    I was. You can't make challenging single player scenarios in wow without it being heavy pass fail mechanics.

  16. #376
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    The issue is single player has to be one and done to be good otherwise it becomes repetitive quickly like torghast.
    I sort of disagree with this. This seems to imply a mindset of playing every day. I don't play every day. My friends don't either and my experience when I was in guilds and the like was that lots of people didn't play every day as well. Torghast is a good enough example I guess. I like Torghast and enjoy running it. It's never gotten old or all that boring/repetitive because I'm only logged on once or twice a week. Sometimes I'll skip it, sometimes I'll spend most of my session (2 hours max) in it.

    The game (for me) is better because I don't grind anything (at all), I don't see content often enough for it get to be same-old same-old right away and I always have stuff to do.

    I truly suspect there are more players like myself than people are aware of. You'll never see us. We are largely invisible in game. Most of us apparently don't talk in forums. In any case I wouldn't be so quick to say that the repetition of game content is assured. It's almost completely dependent on how you approach the game. The more casual, the less likely that one is likely to burn out on something.
    Two rules for living: "Don't go around hurting each other. Try to understand things." — William Least Heat-Moon (Blue Highways)

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    I was. You can't make challenging single player scenarios in wow without it being heavy pass fail mechanics.
    well if its for specific classes like mage tower,you just tune it specificaly for those classes

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I sort of disagree with this. This seems to imply a mindset of playing every day. I don't play every day. My friends don't either and my experience when I was in guilds and the like was that lots of people didn't play every day as well. Torghast is a good enough example I guess. I like Torghast and enjoy running it. It's never gotten old or all that boring/repetitive because I'm only logged on once or twice a week. Sometimes I'll skip it, sometimes I'll spend most of my session (2 hours max) in it.

    The game (for me) is better because I don't grind anything (at all), I don't see content often enough for it get to be same-old same-old right away and I always have stuff to do.

    I truly suspect there are more players like myself than people are aware of. You'll never see us. We are largely invisible in game. Most of us apparently don't talk in forums. In any case I wouldn't be so quick to say that the repetition of game content is assured. It's almost completely dependent on how you approach the game. The more casual, the less likely that one is likely to burn out on something.
    I assume there isn't tbh. I can't use torghast as an example as I was bored from conception by it.

    Let me use mage tower or visions. I enjoyed both but beyond carries for visions I would run them twice. The puzzle has been solved the challenge beat. I might be able to replay them in a years time or so but it's been done.

    Selling mounts to prepare for next tier is why I raid mythic more then I do. The games beaten I leave to come back to beat it again. That makes up the majority of players in my mind just for their difficulties.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    well if its for specific classes like mage tower,you just tune it specificaly for those classes
    Even then that is pass/fail mechanics again and not terribly repeatable.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    Even then that is pass/fail mechanics again and not terribly repeatable.
    oh yeah for sure,i got the wrong idea from the initial reply,was thinking you ment singleplayer games not singleplayer wow content

  20. #380
    As a solo player I just want M+ 0-3 to be Queable without looking/making failed groups. The gear that drops from 0-3 should be able for upgrades to ilvl+15. Social aspect is not fun in anyway for me. Been playing since 06. I don’t mind playing with friends, but that nonexistent due to 30s and moved on. I play to pass the time but also like to be able to find ways to get better ilvl. Just make gear more cosmetic/interesting instead of trapping Ilvl gear in paths that just aren’t fun for a solo player.

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