There needs to be more single player content

[arkanon]

Most people play 1-2 classes and 1-2 specs

Says who? Anything to back that up?

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once it’s done for their class/spec they have no interest in tying other classes/specs

Says who? Anything to back that up?

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due also to the huge setup requirements

What setup requirements? Just walk in, practice it, and win. The only "setup" was guides saying on day 1 of MT that you NEEDED certain legos, even though many of us completed MT without those "required" legos.

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(that’s why I never set feet into it).

Ah, nevermind, that explains everything.

[Rageonit]

Also as to the "They made a lot of mechanics where one person could fuck up the pull for 19 other people. " What even is this claim? single pressure wipe mechanics have existed forever. Just to list a few, ghosts on Gorefiend, fixate on bloodboil, w/e the knockup is called on astromancer, conflag on twins, mana bomb in hyjal, air burst on Archie, fatal attraction on Mother. All these are from TBC and are examples where 1 player doing the mechanic wrong wipes the raid. Now in classic a lot of these are less threatening due to how min/max'ed players are and how fast bosses die but back in original TBC all of these could EASILY wipe the raid if done wrong.

It's not just about the mechanic - it's also about the frequency and execution. A good example would be Rygelon and Dark Eclipse. You have multiple people being affected constantly, thorough the whole fight, and mistakes can be made not only by the people affected (those having the debuff), but also by everyone else (mistakenly going into the portal and making it unavailable for someone who actually needs it). So the risk of a wipe grows exponentially, because there are countless chances during the fight to do something wrong. If you have a player who's slower to react, there are multiple chances for him to be affected; if you have someone lagging, there's a greater chance he will lag while being affected (because of the frequency of this mechanic). Etc. etc.

So just saying: "Look, bosses in the past also had one-shots!" is not enough. Those "checks" became more and more tight with time.

[dragonflight10]

Says who? Anything to back that up?

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Says who? Anything to back that up?

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What setup requirements? Just walk in, practice it, and win. The only "setup" was guides saying on day 1 of MT that you NEEDED certain legos, even though many of us completed MT without those "required" legos.

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Ah, nevermind, that explains everything.

says everyone, if you ask around the majority of players and their friends have 1-3 char
The +10 alts crowd you see are actually a vocal minority who's very delusional and keep asking for stupid stuff in these forums

[ZyntosAran]

says everyone, if you ask around the majority of players and their friends have 1-3 char
The +10 alts crowd you see are actually a vocal minority who's very delusional and keep asking for stupid stuff in these forums

dont call me delusional my dude.

[Flurryfang]

The funny part is that many of the premade group players also often play way more solo gameplay than playing in groups. Simply because groups are only available on their schedules.

Solo content would benefit everyone, including group players. And real gearing progression based on solo play would create loyal solo players.

It is true, that a lot of the single player content, that Blizzard have made through time, have been enviroments for group play aswell, just in smaller groups or competing between each other. The thunder kings treasure trove, was a thing we did before and after raids in MoP and was a great source of fun for my guild in total.

I don't think though, that single content will ever really need gearing progression, because in solo content its more important what is fun, interesting and challenging, than what rewards you are actually getting. Putting rewards in can make excuses for boring content, like in Torghast, so i think its important to keep single player content about having its own reward ecosystem (Like the Farm in MoP, the portal mini-game in TBC or the Mage Tower) instead of it making a parallel to group content like M+ and raiding.

When solo content have been the most fun for me, it has all been about doing it for my own satisfaction, often getting a lesser reward if i had used the same time in group content, and that is fine.

[Lochton]

That gives zero meaningful rewards apart from - in part - Zereth Mortis.

Man, digging for the old comments?

It grants rewards befitting the single-player open world? If you want even better, you need to group up with people, which is how it should be. World Rewards shouldn't be left in the dirt like it starts with but should be able to be progressed enough that you can even feel in the world that it is the end-game. At least this time they have progressed it upwards more.

[chiddie]

Says who? Anything to back that up?

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Says who? Anything to back that up?

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What setup requirements? Just walk in, practice it, and win. The only "setup" was guides saying on day 1 of MT that you NEEDED certain legos, even though many of us completed MT without those "required" legos.

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Ah, nevermind, that explains everything.

Says everyone who is casual. Just dressing one char is painful enough in this game to prevent most casuals from actively using more than 2. I have all the classes at max level but I use only a couple of them “for real”, that rotate every expansion. When I “finished” ZM with my shaman I started it again with another toon. After a couple of days I realized how slow, painful and boring was repeating the process AGAIN that I simply directly quit the game.

But if you want me to provide documented data for that, I don’t have any so if you believe that casuals use a different char per day, you are more than welcome, no prob at all.

I won’t follow the bait about MT sorry, it has no power progression rewards so for me it’s a no go, end of the story. It’s also a challenge that heavily relied on gear (of course, the game was never meant to be like Dark Souls where gear matters very little if you’re really skilled) so I’m even less interested.

[Lochton]

No. Actually, there needs to be less.

Pet battles, almost every single quest and content like Torghast are already enough.

Eh, no, we need to perfect Torghast into a function and design fitting future content, on the side of that, we need a solo, 3, and 5-man scenarios added (Scenarios should be based on events we don't experience in-game but from the books, and should for the future be hosted by Explorer's League, The Reliquary, and the Lorewalkers so that we don't have big events hidden away from players who then are forced to buy the books, but they can experience the story of said events through the scenarios, the scenarios should have a reward scheme of their own but most of the rewards should be titles, cosmetics, pets, mounts, toys, etc), and we need Brawler's Guild running, Pet Battles is more or less feeding itself every time a new expansion, so not much there. It would be a delight to see things like Lei-shen's vault once more returned, and others such that demand more than just stab and run. It would also be a delight to see something like the Mage Tower being a more permanent design with a rotating bracket of challengers pr. month.

We need a world gear progression system that in the long run can exceed that of LFR (Though, limited, so only things like Head/Shoulder/chest/gloves/legs/weapon/OH can be upgraded) but not surpass the Normal Raiding item level (but the bar should be moved every time a new tier is released, so more upgrades though the ability to upgrade further should be tied in with world activity, either an unlocking function of upgrades with a limited amount pr. amount of days, or unlocking the ability to in general).

As for quests, they are fine as they are, wouldn't mind some tougher ones/group ones with a higher reward due to difficulty.

[chiddie]

Man, digging for the old comments?

It grants rewards befitting the single-player open world? If you want even better, you need to group up with people, which is how it should be. World Rewards shouldn't be left in the dirt like it starts with but should be able to be progressed enough that you can even feel in the world that it is the end-game. At least this time they have progressed it upwards more.

Dude, really?

The whole thread is about NOT having to group in order to get meaningful rewards, we all know how the game runs actually.

[Flurryfang]

Well, challenge mode dungeons did not have a considerable audience. Only when they were turned into mythic+ with gearing progression it adressed a notable minority. Gear rewards are a basic gameplay mechanic and as all other borrowed power system implementations failed in the past it is clear to me that gear is the only one that actually works.

Torghast failed because it dropped borrowed power soul ash for two slots of welfare "legendaries" and temporary "rogue like" buffs rather than real useful gear you would need for higher level torghast.

Challenge mode were group content.... If they were single player content, i think it would have a much larger audience, as the main difficulty with Challenge mode was to get the right group together to do them. Lost of people were interested, but nobody wanted to fail constantly with random strangers.

Gear progression is a core aspect of the game and an important gameplay mechanic, but it is also something that gets weaker as you put it at the heart of more and more systems. It works really well in raiding and dungeons, but as you put gear progression into other content, the more competition comes into each of these content and one mostly wins out. If gear progression is at the heart of 3 or more systems, players will often only do 1 or 2, and no other, as that is the primary reason to do them.

By not having gear be at heart of single player content, you remove its need to compete with other content like raiding and m+. I would even say, that the reason Torghast failed, was because it was pushed in as a way of power progression between raiding and dungeons. It had to compete with the time allocated to gearing for players and ended up overloading players with "must do" content when it comes to having the most power.

If it instead had no power connected to it, if it was primarily for the challenge, for the cosmetic loot and the fun of doing a WoW roguelite, i think it would have stood stronger with time and since people would not be "forced" to do it, their patience with the system would have lasted much longer.

[Lolites]

Only when they were turned into mythic+ with gearing progression it adressed a notable minority.

according to wowhead (sure inacurate, but actual data not "someone said so") 84% done m+ dungeon...
"notable minority"...

https://www.wowhead.com/achievement=...stone-initiate

[Flurryfang]

If Torghast would have had no power at all connected to it, noone would have played it. See challenge modes. Gearing progression is mandatory for all different gamestyles. Mage Tower also never was really popular, but more of a brag ground for raiders who thought their gear advantage would make them skilled solo players.

Gearing progression works as a major incentive to make players pariticipate in gameplay. As like mythic+ shows, as like premade group raiding shows. Adapt it to solo gameplay and matchmade group play with personal accountability, and it will create loyal customers.

That statement is just not supported at all. There is a ton of single player content, which have seen play, while not having a single tink of power connected to it. Power is not everything, there is a large community in WoW who are more interested in Achievements, pets and toys than power, and they have pushed a bunch of game features through the expansions.

Mage tower might not have been universually played by 70% of the playerbase, but it was more than popular enough to earn a return not that long ago. It also made for a big topic of conversation, allowed people to try their own challenges and yet had no rewards at all, that helped progress more in the game.

You keep pointing back to group content here, but thats not what we are talking about. What works for group content, might directly not work for single player content. I think that is the case with WoW, as when you put people in groups, they need something to connect them to fufill the task ahead of them and gear is a good carrot on the stick. The same does not work for solo, as players are not interested in "grinding", but more about the personal progression they can experience together with the personal challenge/fun they can have, where they don't have to worry about failing near other players.


So no, putting in gear progression in solo play does not gain you anything other than create content, that has to compete with raiding and dungeoning. Players will not see it as a choice between solo or group, they will see it as a combo unless you create limiting lines between the content.

While you might get a group of players who will be happy to be able to play WoW solo and also get a gear journey through it, i think it will be rather small compared if you opened up said single player content and made it not connected to the gearing journey, creating its own unique journey which is more attractive to the larger playerbase, as it ain't important/mandatory to do for uptimizing power.

[CaptRik]

according to wowhead (sure inacurate, but actual data not "someone said so") 84% done m+ dungeon...
"notable minority"...

https://www.wowhead.com/achievement=...stone-initiate

I have that achievement, I did about 4 mythic+ dungeons in legion then never wanted to do them again

[Flurryfang]

according to wowhead (sure inacurate, but actual data not "someone said so") 84% done m+ dungeon...
"notable minority"...

https://www.wowhead.com/achievement=...stone-initiate

Well, M+ has turned into the most effective way to get gear when it comes to challenge and time used.... It just math, that made sense for most players xD

[Lolites]

I have that achievement, I did about 4 mythic+ dungeons in legion then never wanted to do them again

and even if half of people are like you, that would leave us with 42%, which is still far beyond "notable minority"...

[CaptRik]

and even if half of people are like you, that would leave us with 42%, which is still far beyond "notable minority"...

Yup - we simply don't know how to interpret that data point. My gut feel is that it's more likely to be 1 in 10 people actively play mythic+ so that would make it around 9% but I concede we simply don't know

[Lolites]

Well, M+ has turned into the most effective way to get gear when it comes to challenge and time used.... It just math, that made sense for most players xD

sure, people do M+ for gear... same as raids, pvp, world content... pretty much anything in wow - isnt this whole thread about having rewarding solo content? so gear is surely motivation for shitload of players
but describing 84% as "notable minority" seems a bit off... especialy by someone who pushes the idea that 60%+ (by his own asspull, no data) people are solo players...

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Yup - we simply don't know how to interpret that data point. My gut feel is that it's more likely to be 1 in 10 people actively play mythic+ so that would make it around 9% but I concede we simply don't know

considering 58% have done keystone master at some point we can safely assume its not so low

[Lochton]

Dude, really?

The whole thread is about NOT having to group in order to get meaningful rewards, we all know how the game runs actually.

But you can get meaningful rewards for the world content? If you want better than that, then the group is needed, I've got to admit so, but I wouldn't say that the current level of gear availability for S4 is meaningless.

[Nymrohd]

considering 58% have done keystone master at some point we can safely assume its not so low

Seriously? Where is that statistic from? Not doubting you, would just love to see how they got it

[chiddie]

But you can get meaningful rewards for the world content? If you want better than that, then the group is needed, I've got to admit so, but I wouldn't say that the current level of gear availability for S4 is meaningless.

I maybe recall wrong or this has been changed afterwards, but most bonuses worked only in ZM area.

I have zero issues with a “open world set” that works ONLY in that part of PvE environment but that set HAS to be on par with mythic sets, not 40 levels behind.