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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptRik View Post
    I have that achievement, I did about 4 mythic+ dungeons in legion then never wanted to do them again
    and even if half of people are like you, that would leave us with 42%, which is still far beyond "notable minority"...

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    and even if half of people are like you, that would leave us with 42%, which is still far beyond "notable minority"...
    Yup - we simply don't know how to interpret that data point. My gut feel is that it's more likely to be 1 in 10 people actively play mythic+ so that would make it around 9% but I concede we simply don't know

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    Well, M+ has turned into the most effective way to get gear when it comes to challenge and time used.... It just math, that made sense for most players xD
    sure, people do M+ for gear... same as raids, pvp, world content... pretty much anything in wow - isnt this whole thread about having rewarding solo content? so gear is surely motivation for shitload of players
    but describing 84% as "notable minority" seems a bit off... especialy by someone who pushes the idea that 60%+ (by his own asspull, no data) people are solo players...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptRik View Post
    Yup - we simply don't know how to interpret that data point. My gut feel is that it's more likely to be 1 in 10 people actively play mythic+ so that would make it around 9% but I concede we simply don't know
    considering 58% have done keystone master at some point we can safely assume its not so low

  4. #464
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Dude, really?

    The whole thread is about NOT having to group in order to get meaningful rewards, we all know how the game runs actually.
    But you can get meaningful rewards for the world content? If you want better than that, then the group is needed, I've got to admit so, but I wouldn't say that the current level of gear availability for S4 is meaningless.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  5. #465
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post

    considering 58% have done keystone master at some point we can safely assume its not so low
    Seriously? Where is that statistic from? Not doubting you, would just love to see how they got it

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    That statement is just not supported at all. There is a ton of single player content, which have seen play, while not having a single tink of power connected to it. Power is not everything, there is a large community in WoW who are more interested in Achievements, pets and toys than power, and they have pushed a bunch of game features through the expansions.
    All the components that had no gearing progression failed. Warfronts. Islands. Torghast. Add gearing progression and they will work as intended.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    Mage tower might not have been universually played by 70% of the playerbase, but it was more than popular enough to earn a return not that long ago.
    It was played and mastered by a small minority.

    Also it does not matter if gameplay is solo or in a group. Torghast was a 1..n flex hybrid, and it did not work for solo players as well as it missed any kind of gearing progression.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    It also made for a big topic of conversation, allowed people to try their own challenges and yet had no rewards at all, that helped progress more in the game.
    Well, ok then. Lets remove all gearing rewards from raiding and mythic+ then and lets check out how it works.

    It will not work as gearing progression is a major part of its success.

    Once again: Gearing is an inherent basic component of RPG and MMORPG play, in both group and solo play, as it raises player retention by a large amount simply due to the fact there is always a bigger axe you could acquire from playing your gameplay, be that solo gameplay, small group gameplay or large group gameplay.

    Random Battlegrounds, mainly played by solo pvp players queueing up, were close to deserted before Shadowlands. Then the pvp item vendor returned, and et voilat, thousands played pvp. PVP, tho, will never be mainstream.
    Last edited by cantrip; 2022-09-23 at 11:34 AM.

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Lochton View Post
    But you can get meaningful rewards for the world content? If you want better than that, then the group is needed, I've got to admit so, but I wouldn't say that the current level of gear availability for S4 is meaningless.
    I maybe recall wrong or this has been changed afterwards, but most bonuses worked only in ZM area.

    I have zero issues with a “open world set” that works ONLY in that part of PvE environment but that set HAS to be on par with mythic sets, not 40 levels behind.

  8. #468
    Legendary! Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    All the components that had no gearing progression failed. Warfronts. Islands. Torghast. Add gearing progression and they will work as intended.



    It was played and mastered by a small minority.

    Also it does not matter if gameplay is solo or in a group. Torghast was a 1..n flex hybrid, and it did not work for solo players as well as it missed any kind of gearing progression.



    Well, ok then. Lets remove all gearing rewards from raiding and mythic+ then and lets check out how it works.

    It will not work as gearing progression is a major part of its success.

    Once again: Gearing is an inherent basic component of RPG and MMORPG play, in both group and solo play, as it raises player retention by a large amount simply due to the fact there is always a bigger axe you could acquire from playing your gameplay, be that solo gameplay, small group gameplay or large group gameplay.

    Random Battlegrounds, mainly played by solo pvp players queueing up, were close to deserted before Shadowlands. Then the pvp item vendor returned, and et voilat, thousands played pvp. PVP, tho, will never be mainstream.
    ....If you say that Warfront,s Islands and Torghast(Lets also say Garrisons to be complete) all failed because they had no gear rewards, then you are GREATLY miss-diagnosing the problems of those systems O.o Especially since Warfronts and Islands had HUGE power rewards allocated to them. Just adding better gear to content, does not make it better O.o

    The Mage Tower was played by a bunch of players when it came out and most importantly, it fufilled its purpose. It was never meant to be something that was mastered and grinded by the majority of players, it was something to try and test yourself. Most people in that period tried it and gave it a run, but in the end, it was content specified to a specific group of people, and you know what, taht is okay.
    Besides, Torghast and the Mage Tower are not the same thing, does not try to do the same thing and very different targeted audiences. Torghast would not have been better if it had gear in it. People would still have been bored by it over time and the only thing that made it fun over time, was the quirky non-power elements in it, like toys and achievements.


    To your final point, yes, if you take away gear from raiding and mythic+, it will fail as content. But that is also because it is designed with gear in mind. It is designed to be grinded, to be done over and over again for a slow increase in item level until you beat the final boss. Its also heavily group focused, with the primary barrier to entry being to get people around to do it. Taking gear out of these systems proves nothing, because its missing the point of making something with a specific purpose in mind. Just like gear is the core of raiding and dungeoning, you can also make content where gear is not a the focus.

    Gearing is a core part of MMOS, but we are also not talking about removing gear from the game. We are talking about making a source of content where gear is not a the core of the content experience. That is possible, have been done before even by Blizzard themselves and can help to keep a game healthy, when big party focused content is not valid.

    A final note here: If your primary statement was true, that gearing is the base component of RPGs, then RogueLites could not exists. They would be very unpopular since after the initial gain of bonuses, you would be more and more bored as the game left you with no rewards, and YET... That is not the case. Games like Enter the Gungeon, Hades, Slay the spire and vampire survivors offer no rewards in the form of gearing upgrade, but focused on creating an interesting player experience, by offering new a good gameplay loop, where the focus is on fun, personal challenge.
    Blizzard can do this and have done with something like the Thunder Kings Treasure Trove and i believe it is well worth its development cost to make more of.
    Last edited by Flurryfang; 2022-09-23 at 01:09 PM.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Random Battlegrounds, mainly played by solo pvp players queueing up, were close to deserted before Shadowlands. Then the pvp item vendor returned, and et voilat, thousands played pvp. PVP, tho, will never be mainstream.
    ...seems like you have your own definition of "solo"...
    bcs if queuing alone for GROUP activities constitutes solo play to you, that covers anyone who doesnt play with guild...
    literaly thats only way to get into group content if you dont play with guildmates, you queue, either into random queue or "non-random" queue...
    well you can shout in the city, but thats pretty much the same but with different tool...

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    ....If you say that Warfront,s Islands and Torghast(Lets also say Garrisons to be complete) all failed because they had no gear rewards, then you are GREATLY miss-diagnosing the problems of those systems O.o Especially since Warfronts and Islands had HUGE power rewards allocated to them. Just adding better gear to content, does not make it better O.o
    I do not say it had no gearing rewards, i say it had no gearing progression. Means, you would need difficulty 1 gear to master difficulty2, that, or skill. Progression is, if you use the gear you get to master higher levels of your gameplay.

    The gearing rewards were welfare epics (and in Torghast Legendaries).. gear you do not need for anything of that gameplay, which makes it pretty useless.

  11. #471
    Elemental Lord Gimlix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Nope, you're wrong. FFXIV does it just fine.
    Fine for an average low played MMORPG yeah. IF you want a massive huge success like WoW, then nah.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shekora View Post
    Goddamn it, Gimlix, why do you keep making these threads?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam the Wiser View Post
    Goddamn it, Gimlix, why do you keep making these threads?

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    That's way too fast. We need something long term and worthwhile. Let's say a heroic piece of gear per week. Something to work towards on our own time that'll allow us to carry our own in world PvP
    Or you could just go play a game like this and not ask to break the progression system of a mmo that cant handle that..

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by Thes View Post
    I'd rather have them scrap all the things that they don't think will have enough engagement and just do more of the same thing they've been doing all these years instead of pushing some crap down our throats that they themselves didn't think could stand on its own.
    I think people have this idea that if they do not somehow get neck level 100 they would be so worse off its not worth logging in but in reality it was very minor but a constant reminder that they are AHEAD of you even by a negligible amount. The raiders who put the expectations on their members are a very large part of the problem since they expect the world but look at anything outside of their activity as busy work. I have gotten KSM in every single season swaping mains most seasons with the understanding that its okay to be behind someone its not a race or a competition, its a co-operative game. Now if we can get full clear of raids in 1 pug attempt ( like Emerald Nightmare was ) WoW would be wonderful and i might try raiding again.

    I kind of like how each expansion feels like a new game or how quickly you can swap your main with no need to play past 3-4 weeks into a patch but i also do not engage with guilds or raid just mythic dungeon up to KSM and then stop and move to another game. But half assing it is worse then not even doing it to begin with.

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Seriously? Where is that statistic from? Not doubting you, would just love to see how they got it
    Usually it's from an armory scraper. It's not perfect as it can't tell apart accounts only characters but it's not the worst for general ideas.

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    Or you could just go play a game like this and not ask to break the progression system of a mmo that cant handle that..
    The points for gear or badges for gear used in WoW for a very long time would put a time table on when you are done and can unsub until next content would be a boon instead of carrot chasing. I want to know when i am done before i start so i can set a expiration date on the patch and play another game.

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    The points for gear or badges for gear used in WoW for a very long time would put a time table on when you are done and can unsub until next content would be a boon instead of carrot chasing. I want to know when i am done before i start so i can set a expiration date on the patch and play another game.
    I kinda hoped that with wrath relaunching it would finally kill this weird myth.. badges got you normal raid gear at a snail's pace of 1 piece roughly every 2 weeks if you didn't raid.

    You get more gear now then you ever did with these systems. You just have an insane expectation to get ever increasing rewards for trivial content.

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Seriously? Where is that statistic from? Not doubting you, would just love to see how they got it
    i got it from wowhead, afaik they get data from armory, but i didnt really look into it, i use it for general idea, and for that its far better than asspulls most people use around here

    and given the raid achi for sepulcher was 50%-23%(HC)-2%(M) it seems to be more or less accurate

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    I kinda hoped that with wrath relaunching it would finally kill this weird myth.. badges got you normal raid gear at a snail's pace of 1 piece roughly every 2 weeks if you didn't raid.

    You get more gear now then you ever did with these systems. You just have an insane expectation to get ever increasing rewards for trivial content.
    Not at all, i want consistent growth until i get KSM and then unsub. I just want a time table to know is all. I have stopped playing once i get KSM every season and came back just for that and thats it. I dislike raiding with a passion as i feel its to similar to lame ass dungeons and dragons sessions and is to much time spent in a single sitting and just want more games to become pick up and play instead of long form month over month. The goal is not to be the best but to be respectable i dont swing for the fence i just want slightly above. I am replying in between League games actually xD

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    Not at all, i want consistent growth until i get KSM and then unsub. I just want a time table to know is all.
    but... that doesnt depend on the game...
    you can do KSM second week its available if you got enough time or skill...

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    Not at all, i want consistent growth until i get KSM and then unsub. I just want a time table to know is all. I have stopped playing once i get KSM every season and came back just for that and thats it. I dislike raiding with a passion as i feel its to similar to lame ass dungeons and dragons sessions and is to much time spent in a single sitting and just want more games to become pick up and play instead of long form month over month. The goal is not to be the best but to be respectable i dont swing for the fence i just want slightly above. I am replying in between League games actually xD
    So you want what you have already progressly better gear ass you climb mythic plus

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