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  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Nah, you're just overreacting.

    I mean I could just as much the same people who group don't care about singleplayer content, so they have nothing to complain about. What is being fucked up for them? Nothing.

    And looky looky - I said it could be improved and the first thing you think about is what? 'Mythic Gear for everybody for free' ?. What a fucking joke dude.
    Because its how every suggestion ends... read the thread

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    Because its how every suggestion ends... read the thread
    Then go reply to every one of those suggestions.

    I never implied any SIngleplayer content getting any gear that is better or equal to anything found in Group content. I don't think it's even necessary.

    Having gear progression follow a separate branch, like how PVP gear is handled, would work just fine. Have Solo-specific stats attached, and that's all that you need to keep things separate. Ilvls don't even have to line up.

    Or better yet, have Solo-oriented content be directly tied in with Crafting, and offering special mats that can be found in Solo raids to craft gear that is specific to the content rather than a traditional Loot-per-boss system. Offering a different reward system for Solo play that works for solo players would make the most sense. That would allow Solo players to make use of crafting orders and promote trading and keep relevant to the online community through the economy.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-23 at 09:38 PM.

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I mean, somebody who's maxed all the open world benefits in ZM will likely clear things faster than a Mythic-geared raider without these benefits which is exactly the intention behind making a system that makes you stronger while you do that content. It may not be D3 rifts in 2 minutes fast but literally nobody is doing that so that seems like an unreasonable request.
    Dude I won’t clear anything faster because mythic level gear is so much higher ilvl wise that will overcompensate by far the lack of bonuses.

    It’s better than nothing? Yes. Is it satisfying? So and so, also because after you gather that gear, you can make no use of it since continue to farm dailies in ZM is totally useless.

  4. #484
    Ah yes, that's why I play a Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game, to do singleplayer content.

    I think this game might not be for you, chief.

  5. #485
    Stood in the Fire VMSmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullfred View Post
    Ah yes, that's why I play a Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game, to do singleplayer content.

    I think this game might not be for you, chief.
    You "play" a multiplayer game every day called "Real Life". Do you need a group of people in the bathroom working together to scrub your ass? Do you need people walking with you in the grocery store to make sure you make the optimal purchases? But, guess what, you do like having people stock the shelves with those groceries for you.

    Multiplayer has never meant "grouping" until EQ and WoW. Most multiplayer games let you play perfectly fine by yourself, there's just other people around you affecting the experience. And that's where the comparison to real life comes in ... other people affect your experience, like stocking the shelves or building cars or catching a football. You don't have to be up their ass nor do they up yours all the time to enjoy other people existing either in real life or in an MMO. MMOs are all about a shared space, not about being in a group. It's only WoW that thinks you must be in a manual group with strangers to have fun and no other fun is to be allowed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Having gear progression follow a separate branch, like how PVP gear is handled, would work just fine. Have Solo-specific stats attached, and that's all that you need to keep things separate. Ilvls don't even have to line up.

    Or better yet, have Solo-oriented content be directly tied in with Crafting, and offering special mats that can be found in Solo raids to craft gear that is specific to the content rather than a traditional Loot-per-boss system. Offering a different reward system for Solo play that works for solo players would make the most sense. That would allow Solo players to make use of crafting orders and promote trading and keep relevant to the online community through the economy.
    This is basically the suggestion I made earlier fleshed out a bit more, so I completely agree.

    I don't get this desire to tell people to "fuck off out of my game" when improving their experience will do me no harm and actually increase the resources available to make the game better for everyone.

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    I don't get this desire to tell people to "fuck off out of my game" when improving their experience will do me no harm and actually increase the resources available to make the game better for everyone.
    Its not so much that people are attempting to gate keep or say, "You shouldn't get Mythic iLevel Gear". Its the fact that if let's say World Quests gave you iLevel 304 gear than WQ now become a requirement for Raiders to do. Just as you do not wish to partake raiding, others do not wish to partake in World Quests.

    How do you reward a single player experience without making it mandatory for raiders or PvPers that have no interest in it? The answer is largely what we have now. Vertical Progression in things like the Creation Catalyst with Mounts and Pets, Transmogs from things like the Death of Chromie and Mage Tower.
    Curoar, Arms Warrior of 15 years.

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    You "play" a multiplayer game every day called "Real Life". Do you need a group of people in the bathroom working together to scrub your ass? Do you need people walking with you in the grocery store to make sure you make the optimal purchases? But, guess what, you do like having people stock the shelves with those groceries for you.

    Multiplayer has never meant "grouping" until EQ and WoW. Most multiplayer games let you play perfectly fine by yourself, there's just other people around you affecting the experience. And that's where the comparison to real life comes in ... other people affect your experience, like stocking the shelves or building cars or catching a football. You don't have to be up their ass nor do they up yours all the time to enjoy other people existing either in real life or in an MMO. MMOs are all about a shared space, not about being in a group. It's only WoW that thinks you must be in a manual group with strangers to have fun and no other fun is to be allowed.

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    This is basically the suggestion I made earlier fleshed out a bit more, so I completely agree.

    I don't get this desire to tell people to "fuck off out of my game" when improving their experience will do me no harm and actually increase the resources available to make the game better for everyone.
    I tell people to fuck off is because I know, for a fact, that any type of single player progression system will have an irreversible negative impact on the content that I enjoy. I'd rather not see the WoW that I enjoy die off because a few anti-social ex-WoW players can have a fucking FFXIV clone with a WoW skin. Just play FFXIV instead. Please. Nobody will miss you.

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    So how is it the way it is now because of people like me when I haven't been subbed since Cataclysm?

    Man, I'm doing so much damage to the game and I don't even have to do anything!
    Wait wait , i must step in for this, you haven't been subbed for 10 years and yet you re here arguing about the game ??.... BUT WHY ?

  9. #489
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    You "play" a multiplayer game every day called "Real Life". Do you need a group of people in the bathroom working together to scrub your ass? Do you need people walking with you in the grocery store to make sure you make the optimal purchases? But, guess what, you do like having people stock the shelves with those groceries for you.
    this is such a false equivalency that it makes my head spin: I don't go into the grocery store with the sole intent of completing content via coordination and cooperation. It doesn't matter what games did before EQ and WoW: I don't know about EQ, but WoW has always presented group content for higher gear rewards. It's been that way for close to 20 years now. Why would people have the motivation to engage in other content if WQs can suddenly drop oodles of Mythic+ items? It goes against the way the game is designed, and the genre.

  10. #490
    Stood in the Fire VMSmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirbydude65 View Post
    Its not so much that people are attempting to gate keep or say, "You shouldn't get Mythic iLevel Gear". Its the fact that if let's say World Quests gave you iLevel 304 gear than WQ now become a requirement for Raiders to do. Just as you do not wish to partake raiding, others do not wish to partake in World Quests.

    How do you reward a single player experience without making it mandatory for raiders or PvPers that have no interest in it? The answer is largely what we have now. Vertical Progression in things like the Creation Catalyst with Mounts and Pets, Transmogs from things like the Death of Chromie and Mage Tower.
    Keep in mind that what you are saying essentially is that it's unfair for raiders to have to do world content but totally fair for world content players to have to do raids if they want any enjoyment of progression in the game. This comment makes it clear that people don't mind forcing others to do things those others don't want to do but don't want themselves forced to do things they don't want to do. You want your enjoyment funded off the backs of people who are mostly unhappy with what is offered to them because there are simply not enough raiders and such to keep the game afloat at the current level of content provided to those raiders.

    Most other games tell the raiders "tough luck" and expect them to suck it up and do things they don't really like, but there's got to be a solution at some point that makes everyone happy. That solution, I believe, is content-separated stats. But, as I said earlier, I don't think they'd do that because it would expose the lack of interest in the group content that Blizzard's developers love best.

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    Your post will always fall on deaf ears only because these forums have over the past nearly 2 decades become echo chambers for players who just do organized content. And since this is the population that screams the loudest they're constantly heard.

    Players like you and I just straight up quit whenever we hit that early wall of progression into heroic raid level gear that would allow us to enjoy things like world pvp, bgs (without getting decimated for days on end before getting geared enough) and maybe even dabble in that mythic+ and raid level content.

    This game stopped being the WORLD of warcraft a long time ago. They've attempted to reignite that spark a few times and I'd personally say that BfA did that aspect right. But again the organized raiders/players weren't happy with what was otherwise a slam-dunk expansion for world content and so we ended up with the atrocity that is SL.
    World pvp has literally nothing to do with raid gear. Players in mythic gear get merced by players in even 1800 gear because of versa's importance in pvp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    Keep in mind that what you are saying essentially is that it's unfair for raiders to have to do world content but totally fair for world content players to have to do raids if they want any enjoyment of progression in the game. This comment makes it clear that people don't mind forcing others to do things those others don't want to do but don't want themselves forced to do things they don't want to do. You want your enjoyment funded off the backs of people who are mostly unhappy with what is offered to them because there are simply not enough raiders and such to keep the game afloat at the current level of content provided to those raiders.

    Most other games tell the raiders "tough luck" and expect them to suck it up and do things they don't really like, but there's got to be a solution at some point that makes everyone happy. That solution, I believe, is content-separated stats. But, as I said earlier, I don't think they'd do that because it would expose the lack of interest in the group content that Blizzard's developers love best.
    World content doesn't even need to exist most other games barely bother with it and they certainly don't tell raiders they have to do dailies for it. The most cited one is ffxiv where you still get full geared by doing actually content not random world stuff. If blizzard didn't put out huge wastes of time like zm and instead put out 3 plus more dungeons per patch and had a more consistent six month raid cycle with smaller raids it would be great for the game and would lead to much less burnout. Sadly for some reason they still think Timeless Isle was why people subbed instead of why they burned out and unsubbed.

    Even the most played "single player" content in ffxiv is still group content like palace it just doesn't require organized play and it gives largely cosmetic rewards.
    Last edited by Xath; 2022-09-24 at 01:09 AM.

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyah View Post
    Wait wait , i must step in for this, you haven't been subbed for 10 years and yet you re here arguing about the game ??.... BUT WHY ?
    Why not? The principle of having more content for more people is a good thing. Why anyone would actually argue against it is the baffling thing. It doesn't actually impact what people currently play any more than Classic WoW existing alongside. Every single argument against Solo play is a repeat of the same things people talked about with Classic coming back. Let them play on Private servers, don't split the community, those people should just learn to play modern WoW, we don't need to cater to more groups, etc etc. Why? Classic WoW hasn't killed anything, and still requires Blizzard's effort to push out, and is popular without impacting current WoW. I don't see a separate progression mode killing group content any differently here.

  13. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Why not? The principle of having more content for more people is a good thing. Why anyone would actually argue against it is the baffling thing. It doesn't actually impact what people currently play any more than Classic WoW existing alongside. Every single argument against Solo play is a repeat of the same things people talked about with Classic coming back. Let them play on Private servers, don't split the community, those people should just learn to play modern WoW, we don't need to cater to more groups, etc etc. Why? Classic WoW hasn't killed anything, and still requires Blizzard's effort to push out, and is popular without impacting current WoW. I don't see a separate progression mode killing group content any differently here.
    I mean why are you arguing on the page 26 of a thread about a game you have not been subbed to in 10 years. Look like a creepy dude who can't go over his ex....

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I tell people to fuck off is because I know, for a fact, that any type of single player progression system will have an irreversible negative impact on the content that I enjoy. I'd rather not see the WoW that I enjoy die off because a few anti-social ex-WoW players can have a fucking FFXIV clone with a WoW skin. Just play FFXIV instead. Please. Nobody will miss you.
    Getting high end gear only affects you if you can't be bothered to turn around and tell your raid leader "No, that part of the game isn't appealing to me. I do enough DPS without it. Go fuck yourself."

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyah View Post
    I mean why are you arguing on the page 26 of a thread about a game you have not been subbed to in 10 years. Look like a creepy dude who can't go over his ex....
    And you're arguing this in a gaming forum. What the fuck do you care really? We're all man children here, don't pretend you aren't. Get over yourself dude.

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    A relatively simple solution that would work for everyone is to create a gear stat that applies to specific content. i.e. a stat called "Raid" that gives +whatever only when you're in raids and only comes from raid content, a stat called "PvP" that gives +whatever only when you're in PvP and only comes from PvP content, and do the same for "Dungeon" and "World". That way everyone can have a gearing progression set to whatever timeframe will keep them busy for the bulk of the patch and everyone only needs to do that content that they particularly enjoy because the gear is mostly meh outside of its specific content.

    The drawbacks to this are:

    1) Multiple gear sets if you enjoy multiple types of content. Honestly, I see this as a minuscule problem that people can just deal with.

    2) Not being immediately overpowered in, for example, PvP because you are a great Mythic raider. Some people will cry about this, but fuck them. If a Mythic raider wants to steamroll people in PvP then they need to PvP for the gear rather than kill pixel dragons.

    3) Blizzard would be unhappy because they couldn't force people into the content that they don't enjoy and it would expose the lack of interest in certain types of content ... likely Blizzard's preferred content. This is the reason IMO that this solution would probably never be implemented.
    We basically had this with the raid gems in 9.1 and it was awful. What it actually ends up doing is making it really hard to cross pollenate, and the entire game ends up very siloed. You basically can't "casually" do anything.

    (it exists now with pvp gear too and it just makes fewer people participate in general, same as Resilience did)
    Last edited by Ashana Darkmoon; 2022-09-24 at 02:48 AM.

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    Keep in mind that what you are saying essentially is that it's unfair for raiders to have to do world content but totally fair for world content players to have to do raids if they want any enjoyment of progression in the game. This comment makes it clear that people don't mind forcing others to do things those others don't want to do but don't want themselves forced to do things they don't want to do.
    Thats not what I said at all, and I would really appreciate it if you didn't put words into my mouth. I stated that the difficulty becomes providing a progression that doesn't interfere with content that other people do not want to participate in. I then cited examples of single player content that exists in the game that provided players with progression, that wasn't gear related since that was the solution in the past.

    Not once did I tell players that focus on World Content, that they needed to raid if they wanted gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    You want your enjoyment funded off the backs of people who are mostly unhappy with what is offered to them because there are simply not enough raiders and such to keep the game afloat at the current level of content provided to those raiders.
    Again, putting words into my mouth. Open world players have progression and I believe that they should have it. However as I said the effort of either running Mythic + or Putting together a raid team out weighs the effort put forth by World Content. As such they get a progression system (and a very solid one at that) that gives them all the way up to normal raid gear (252) prior to Season 4. The issue isn't that open world players don't have progression, is that they're not satisfied with where it stops.

    The issue with offering high level gear for a solo player experience is either...

    A.) Its an absolute slog that doesn't respect your time.

    or

    B.) It becomes a mandatory thing that PvPers and Raiders have to interact with if they don't want to be a hinderance to their teams.

    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    Most other games tell the raiders "tough luck" and expect them to suck it up and do things they don't really like, but there's got to be a solution at some point that makes everyone happy. That solution, I believe, is content-separated stats. But, as I said earlier, I don't think they'd do that because it would expose the lack of interest in the group content that Blizzard's developers love best.
    Do you have examples of this? Outside of Destiny 2, I don't know of other game that give its players the highest item level gear without participating in the hardest content. Even than Destiny still provides large advantages to raiders with things like Faster Progression, Unique Weapons that cannot be found in outside of the raid, and Exotic Weapons that are sometimes game breaking (EG Anarchy). I know FFXIV still requires players to do group content to get at least some what decent gear with Tomestones, and the best comes from Savage raiding.

    So to my knowledge its not just a Blizzard thing.
    Curoar, Arms Warrior of 15 years.

  18. #498
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    It changed very quickly from 1-2 to 1-3. If "everyone" agrees, why does the other person say 1-2 but you say 1-3? And why did you make the extreme leap from 1-3 characters to 11? what about 4, 5, 6, etc? You are confusing your personal experience with actual data and facts.

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    Your arrogance is astonishing. What gives you the right to speak for ALL casuals? Most casuals i play with have far MORE characters they play compared to the hardcore people i play with.

    Its not "bait" its me pointing out that you shouldnt be speaking about the difficulty of content you admitted to NEVER attempting even once. You dont even seem to realise how it scaled, it was actually very doable without the bis legos, myself and MANY others did most or all of them without ever having the bis legos. You would know this if you had ever actually tried.
    1-2 or 1-3 my point is it's alot less than people think

  19. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullfred View Post
    Ah yes, that's why I play a Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game, to do singleplayer content.

    I think this game might not be for you, chief.
    Agagin, you are misusing the word multiplayer. It does not mean only group content. It means a lot of players online in one spot. Stop trying to act like and MMO is group content only. It is not.

  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    (it exists now with pvp gear too and it just makes fewer people participate in general, same as Resilience did)
    What does this actually mean? Like, how can you tell fewer people participate in general just because the gear is specific to the content? I mean, I can't say it was good when people were using PVP gear for PVE either, or vice versa.

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