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  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by dragonflight10 View Post
    1-2 or 1-3 my point is it's alot less than people think
    You say its "less than people think" and yet dont provide ANYTHING to support that claim other than "dude, trust me, everyone is wrong except for me and people who agree with me, trust me dude"
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nobody uses Online forums anymore.

  2. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You say its "less than people think" and yet dont provide ANYTHING to support that claim other than "dude, trust me, everyone is wrong except for me and people who agree with me, trust me dude"
    stop assuming stuff mate.

  3. #503
    Quote Originally Posted by dragonflight10 View Post
    stop assuming stuff mate.
    Yes, thats exactly my point - you need to stop assuming stuff, mate. Thats EXACTLY what i am telling you, well done getting there in the end.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nobody uses Online forums anymore.

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Yes, thats exactly my point - you need to stop assuming stuff, mate. Thats EXACTLY what i am telling you, well done getting there in the end.
    you need to relax and go out. way too focused on this discussion man

  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Mage tower is a “one go” challenge. Most people play 1-2 classes and 1-2 specs, once it’s done for their class/spec they have no interest in tying other classes/specs, due also to the huge setup requirements and the fact that rewards have ZERO impact on char power (that’s why I never set feet into it).

    Torghast on paper was also a good idea but, again, zero char power rewards so it rapidly went deserted apart from the few achievements addicted players.

    If they can’t add challenging solo non timed content (horrible visions = no, thanks) that gives also power progression rewards, it’s maybe better they focus their manpower on something else entirely.
    Torghast did give player power, legendaries. And people hated it for it. Mage tower is a solo challenge that do give most players a hard time. Huge setup requirements is an issue though, one of the reasons I dont really bother with it. Done it on my main, thats about it.

    Thing is, if you want solo player content that gives player power - why would anyone give a shit about playing with others? When m+ was brought in, lots more ppl bothered with that and raids aint that important. If Blizz added player power solo content, m+ would loose players too.

    Afterall, this is a MMORPG. They should focus on bringing people together, not push them away. Mage tower is fine content for those that actually want a challenge. Its a concept Blizzard should build upon. For gearing etc though, this game should reward grouping.

  6. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Huge setup requirements is an issue though, one of the reasons I dont really bother with it. Done it on my main, thats about it.
    Seriously, what on earth are people talking about this "huge setup requirements"...........its simply not true, objectively. It was only EXTREMELY early - literally the first couple of weeks that it was tough without the "bis" legos, otherwise you could do it with whatever gear you had. This "setup requirement" is 100% myth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nobody uses Online forums anymore.

  7. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    What does this actually mean? Like, how can you tell fewer people participate in general just because the gear is specific to the content? I mean, I can't say it was good when people were using PVP gear for PVE either, or vice versa.
    It means people are much less inclined to log in and just hop into whatever their friends are doing, even if it isn't their main thing.

    -Maybe your friends need a body for their raid to help out that night, but you only raid maybe once a month. Well, you can go but your damage is -25% lower than everyone because you don't have the gems, let alone have them fully upgraded with the right set (and never get invited to pugs)
    -Some friends want to do rated BGs. Well, same problem - don't have a full verse set? Not really much point, you'll die instantly (and never get into pugs)

    If that same thing happened to m+, the problem would just repeat. Personally, I think the game is better off if you can hop into any content around your appropriate ilvl without needing to hardcore commit to any particular thing. Sure, fully optimized gear might make someone who really committed a little better, but with siloing it is way more than a little. The difference between pve gear and full verse gear is enormous, for example.

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    It means people are much less inclined to log in and just hop into whatever their friends are doing, even if it isn't their main thing.

    -Maybe your friends need a body for their raid to help out that night, but you only raid maybe once a month. Well, you can go but your damage is -25% lower than everyone because you don't have the gems, let alone have them fully upgraded with the right set (and never get invited to pugs)
    -Some friends want to do rated BGs. Well, same problem - don't have a full verse set? Not really much point, you'll die instantly (and never get into pugs)

    If that same thing happened to m+, the problem would just repeat. Personally, I think the game is better off if you can hop into any content around your appropriate ilvl without needing to hardcore commit to any particular thing. Sure, fully optimized gear might make someone who really committed a little better, but with siloing it is way more than a little. The difference between pve gear and full verse gear is enormous, for example.
    Easy solution with the new crafting system, having crafting gear match current gear levels makes the playing field completely even, and by making pvp ilvl static in pvp and ionly increase outside pvp it solves the unbalanced pvp issue. Not really a difficult solution. Have Mythic+15 Raid Heroic and Gladiator gear award gear lvl X have pvp cap at gear lvl X-10 and have all other gear be gear x-10. (crafted included) This makes pvp fair, makes doing pvp rewarding makes the largest difficulty of everything rewarding and makes catch up easy. Can even have Raid Boss X drop item Y used in crafted Z that is equal to gear lvl X to make a crafted catch up and crafted equal items. The biggest hurdle was always pvp balance which is very simple if they cap gear ilvls. Never makes sense to gate pvp behind a rating when your opponent can get that gear. Would be like forcing myhtic+0s to do mythic+15s until they can beat mythic+15s.

  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Seriously, what on earth are people talking about this "huge setup requirements"...........its simply not true, objectively. It was only EXTREMELY early - literally the first couple of weeks that it was tough without the "bis" legos, otherwise you could do it with whatever gear you had. This "setup requirement" is 100% myth.
    Maybe it is, I dont know. Decided not to bother with retail until 10.0 is getting close. If its not the case anymore, good.

  10. #510
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    It means people are much less inclined to log in and just hop into whatever their friends are doing, even if it isn't their main thing.
    It wouldn't be less inclined if you literally explain it to me as raiding not being their main thing. Solo content changes nothing other than being its own separate progression system.

    Your wrgument is no different than saying people are less inclined to do the same because of WoW Classic. That was sure a myth if I'd ever heard it. People could play both just fine, and it didn't take away friends at all.

    If they are 'less inclined to do group content' then Solo play can't be blamed on a shift of interest. That disinterest in raiding would always have been there.

  11. #511
    I personally need character progression. No character progression => zero motivation to play content. It's not the same, as character power. Character power is something absolute, while character progression can be relative. I.e. I don't need mythic gear. But even questing is better than Torghast, because quest greens provide some character progression, while Torghast provides 0.

    What's wrong with direction of development? Inclusivity is priceless - race change for free!

  12. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    No chance with the gatekeepers that design WoW. They will limit gear rewards and progression to premade groups.
    It's not the game's fault players have chosen to play a multiplayer game yet have no interest in, y'know, actually interacting with other players. Blizzard's disinterest in adding solo progression content is not "gatekeeping" on the developers' part. The precise opposite is true: The desire for changing WoW into something the game has never been is pure, 100%, completely unadulterated entitlement on behalf of players who are simply playing the wrong fucking game.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2022-09-24 at 08:01 PM.

  13. #513
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It wouldn't be less inclined if you literally explain it to me as raiding not being their main thing. Solo content changes nothing other than being its own separate progression system.

    Your wrgument is no different than saying people are less inclined to do the same because of WoW Classic. That was sure a myth if I'd ever heard it. People could play both just fine, and it didn't take away friends at all.

    If they are 'less inclined to do group content' then Solo play can't be blamed on a shift of interest. That disinterest in raiding would always have been there.
    I don't understand what any of this is supposed to mean lol.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    The desire for changing WoW into something the game has never been is pure, 100%, completely unadulterated entitlement on behalf of players who are simply playing the wrong fucking game.
    Well, the game did come out quite recently, so it's difficult to know what you're getting into!

  14. #514
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Except that it's not long term and it's not worthwhile. Normal mode raid gear is complete garbage, you have no chance in open world PvP wearing that.
    You forget the free res
    The port
    The huge stat bonus
    This is literally like benthic gear where it's so strong that the ilvl difference is meaningless

  15. #515
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    It's not the game's fault players have chosen to play a multiplayer game yet have no interest in, y'know, actually interacting with other players. Blizzard's disinterest in adding solo progression content is not "gatekeeping" on the developers' part. The opposite of true. The desire for changing WoW into something the game has never been is pure, 100%, completely unadulterated entitlement on behalf of players who are simply playing the wrong fucking game.
    It's more of a which came first, the chicken or the egg.

    One of the driving reasons we're at this point is because of the actions and design choices Blizz has made over the years, which have tended towards removing the need to be social in their MMO. The game fosters and encourages a mentality of where players are no better than NPCs, at which point the game effectively becomes a single player experience. While we could rehash all the changes and policies that have effectively killed most of the social aspect of WoW, that's been done ad naseum over the years, so it shouldn't need to be repeated. What should be reinforced is that Blizz is not without blame when it comes to players wanting a certain type of experience that they fostered.

    While the current player base may also be shifting in regard to whether they want more single player oriented content/progression based upon a myraid of reasons, I'd submit that they've likely always been part of the community. The real question is whether Blizz has lost a lot of people who were in the game for the social/multiplayer experience that it once offered (increasing the ratio of people who want more single player stuff despite dwindling numbers), or if it's people who started social/multiplayer and changed... or I guess technically a third option is that the new players Blizz is attracting don't want a social/multiplayer experience. If I had to hazard a guess, it's a little bit of everything but leaning heavily towards Blizz drove away the people who really want the social/multiplayer experience an MMO offers. While many other games and sociological pressures have trended towards quick, disposable content that can be done by yourself, there's still plenty of people who want more than that in their games.

    Ultimately, Blizz is in a no-win scenario, or at the very least in a difficult position. If they had stuck to their original intent for the game when it came to certain policies and goals, I think the game would still have a strong social pillar even in these times... but they didn't. Now they're stuck trying to push content that requires being social and focuses on multiplayer experiences onto players who came in not wanting that experience, were trained by the game towards not wanting that type of experience, or just don't play the game anymore. Add on all the other issues that have happened over the years, WoW is in a very unstable position where it probably can't handle another big loss. That's not saying WoW would be dead and no more, but it would receive damage from which it cannot recover (I could even make the case that the past couple of expansions have done irreparable damage to WoW). At this point, the best it can do is cater to whatever players they have left, but that doesn't mean it would be healthy for the game they want either.

    Personally, I'd love if Blizz made a revival when it comes to the social aspect of the game, but realistically it probably cannot achieve what it once did. I think if they want to even have a chance at bringing people back to the game or maintaining a stable player base, it would be solving the real problems that drive people to want single player experiences. To summarize while leaving all the nuance out in the interest of brevity, Blizz needs to heavily tone down on the difficulty of the game's multiplayer experiences while all surrounding/supporting systems are made way more accessible to entice and enable players to interact and participate with the game's multiplayer experiences. Heck, this was basically one of their founding goals for making WoW in the first place, as the current WoW has become an MMO that they were trying to not be like.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  16. #516
    Stealthed Defender unbound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Contrary to premade group players, which are a minority. See the raid and mythic+ completion rates.



    mythic+: 32% of all players at max. Which i call a notable minority



    raids:20% max. And that includes LFR.

    Sources: https://www.dataforazeroth.com/leade...mpletion-score
    Your own stats above demonstrate that even mythic+ is declining considerably. It's entertaining for only a little bit, then gets old really quick (especially with only 8 or 9 dungeons, but it'll be the same as they expand).

    And, whether you realize it or not, the same goes for raids. The first run through a raid is interesting, but quickly gets old. Very few actually want to do the same raid (or mythic+ dungeon) over and over and over again...then push up a difficulty slider to do that same raid (or mythic+ dungeon) over and over and over again...then push up a difficulty slider...

    It doesn't really matter if there is more single player content or more group content specifically. What WoW lacks (and has for a long time now) is just plain content.

    At the peak of its popularity, WoW expansions had 16 new dungeons and 7 or 8 raids. There is a strong correlation with the decline of the number of WoW players and how much content has been released. Cata gave us less content, and the playerbase shrunk. MoP gave us even less content, and the playerbase shrunk. And on and on.

    This whole "people only come back for a new expansion for a few months then leave" is a new phenomena that Blizz invented to excuse their cheapness. Count on Dragonflight to be another "record sales" followed by most quitting in 2-3 months because of the lack of content...single or group based.

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    I am amused some still believe a MMORPG is a "premade group only progression" game qua genre.

    What a stupid assessment.

    A MMORPG is a "Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game" which is a mix out of many players sharing a world and role playing gameplay, which is defined as a game with roles you can play and inherent mechanics like character progression and power gains you need to master higher levels.

    Groups and multiplayer refers to any kind of group play, which includes matchmade gameplay or simply playing alongside in a shared world. Massive means, it adresses large groups (as well, and not only).

    Based on quotes from developers around 60% of MMORPG players are solo players. And based on common sense the largest audience should at least receive a notable development effort.

    Contrary to premade group players, which are a minority. See the raid and mythic+ completion rates.



    mythic+: 32% of all players at max. Which i call a notable minority



    raids:20% max. And that includes LFR.

    Sources: https://www.dataforazeroth.com/leade...mpletion-score
    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    Your own stats above demonstrate that even mythic+ is declining considerably. It's entertaining for only a little bit, then gets old really quick (especially with only 8 or 9 dungeons, but it'll be the same as they expand).

    And, whether you realize it or not, the same goes for raids. The first run through a raid is interesting, but quickly gets old. Very few actually want to do the same raid (or mythic+ dungeon) over and over and over again...then push up a difficulty slider to do that same raid (or mythic+ dungeon) over and over and over again...then push up a difficulty slider...

    It doesn't really matter if there is more single player content or more group content specifically. What WoW lacks (and has for a long time now) is just plain content.

    At the peak of its popularity, WoW expansions had 16 new dungeons and 7 or 8 raids. There is a strong correlation with the decline of the number of WoW players and how much content has been released. Cata gave us less content, and the playerbase shrunk. MoP gave us even less content, and the playerbase shrunk. And on and on.

    This whole "people only come back for a new expansion for a few months then leave" is a new phenomena that Blizz invented to excuse their cheapness. Count on Dragonflight to be another "record sales" followed by most quitting in 2-3 months because of the lack of content...single or group based.
    @cantrip
    Disagreed.

    Clickbaiters like Bellular is using this as some evidence. It's false and misleading - there is a whole lot more in between the lines. If you would stop ignoring people, you would understand this simple concept by now.

    @unbound
    That is called confirmation bias. You didn't see any fact - you didn't read any objective conclussions.
    Last edited by HansOlo; 2022-09-24 at 09:03 PM.

  18. #518
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    A game that utilizes matchmaking also is a multiplayer game. And the most successfull games are those which utilize strong matchmaking. And surely not those that want you to commit your life to a raiding guild. And really, if you need to be social, go on social media or your local pub. Thats way better for being social than playing a game where most players want to play a session and not make new friends.

    One of blizzards mission statements is "gameplay first". But those mission statements say nothing about "try to emulate facebook or a pub as much as possible."



    Sure it is. They keep the gates closed for gearing progression for anyone but premade group players. That is the definition of gatekeeping.



    Another one who wants to pretend a MMORPG is all about premade groups. It never will be and it never was. If the devs were able to accept the truth they would design a game for premade group players, matchade group players and solo players, as all of them are either a notable minority or even a majority of their players.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I did not even talk about Bellular in that post. But sure. You do you.
    Chess is also a very popular game and does not have any single player content. Go play another game.
    Chronomancer Club

  19. #519
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    A game that utilizes matchmaking also is a multiplayer game.
    No you have to manually form all your groups otherwise it doesn't count! No plebs allowed, everything must be premade group content and everything that's not should be removed from the game! Elitists unite!

    /s

  20. #520
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Sure it is. They keep the gates closed for gearing progression for anyone but premade group players. That is the definition of gatekeeping.
    I love how this is supposed to be some sort of 'gotcha'. Yes, it's gatekeeping. That isn't a bad thing. If you want to gear and progress, play the game the way its been designed for the past 2 decades. If you don't, play a different game. You aren't entitled to play every single game that exists, and you aren't entitled to games dramatically altering the way progression works because you want more SinGlepLayEr ExpEriEnces in your MMORPG.

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