There needs to be more single player content

[HansOlo]

Thanks for supporting my point.

Gatekeeping and elitism are no concepts to design a game based on. Simply because they are stupid concepts. Based either on incompetence to address anyone else correctly than those that share the developer bias, or based on pure egoism to have a game the game director likes, but which his customers stop playing a few weeks after release.

Try to relate to this - you might understand why people can't take you serious:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Types of confirmation bias
Biased search for information

[Lolites]

raids:20% max. And that includes LFR.

Sources: https://www.dataforazeroth.com/leade...mpletion-score

lets assume those data are accurate, good, now you only need to preovide data to how many people do ONLY solo content, otherwise how the hell can you claim its more than those who do this?!

i doubt it is, bcs at best its build on armory data like wowhead, which shows sepulcher achi at 50% not 20%... so at best this is character rather than player portion, and surprise surprise, people often have alts they leveled but never did any proper content on - hell i have few i leveled to max lvl and only use them for profesions or for mission table to farm gold...

[HansOlo]

lets assume those data are accurate, good, now you only need to preovide data to how many people do ONLY solo content, otherwise how the hell can you claim its more than those who do this?!

i doubt it is, bcs at best its build on armory data like wowhead, which shows sepulcher achi at 50% not 20%... so at best this is character rather than player portion, and surprise surprise, people often have alts they leveled but never did any proper content on - hell i have few i leveled to max lvl and only use them for profesions or for mission table to farm gold...

I did challenge him many times only to get ignored. He is either trolling or getting the attention nobody gives him in his guild.

[Lolites]

At the peak of its popularity, WoW expansions had 16 new dungeons and 7 or 8 raids. There is a strong correlation with the decline of the number of WoW players and how much content has been released.

wrath had the same amount (or probably more) content, some of which far more popular (and is, to this day) than TBC, how come numbers didnt skyrocket like in tbc but were more or less flat?
its almost like the one thing you want to pinpoint as the reason of rise/decline of wow is only one of MANY things that count... who would have thought...

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I did challenge him many times only to get ignored. He is either trolling or getting the attention nobody gives him in his guild.

i hope he is trolling, i cant believe someone would actualy be so out of reality...

[Lora]

And not just world quests and dailies, but rather, meaningful and challenging content that can progress your character through out the entirety of a season.

I envision a solo end game content experience, much like Monster Hunter or Dark Souls/Elden Ring.

As it stands, there is currently very little reason to log on, outside your weekly m+/raid times. There is just nothing to do.

yes and no. more solo stuff would be nice but its a MMO for a reason. WoW is not a single player game.

[Lolites]

Wowhead only collects data on their own profiles, means users which actively use wowhead with a login.

If you check the wowhead statement on achievements, they always talk about "player profiles".

"PLAYER profiles" not "wowhead users profiles", so who knows, might mean its calculated per account rather than per char...
but you might be right, now what is the page you posted based on? is there some metodology for their data or is it "dude trust me" kind of source?
bcs without that you might as well guess if its more accurate that wowhead or just a asspull... or as i said, one might be per account one per char, without knowing their source and metodology both are probably inacurate as hell

[Relapses]

"PLAYER profiles" not "wowhead users profiles", so who knows, might mean its calculated by excluding alts...
but you might be right, now what is the page you posted based on? is there some metodology for their data or is it "dude trust me" kind of source?
bcs without that you might as well guess if its more accurate that wowhead or just a asspull...

Like all API data it's imaginary anyway. It's not worth arguing about nor is it worth taking as a valuable source to support an argument. It really doesn't matter because the people who make the content assuredly have internal tools they use to measure player engagement and that often dictates the direction they design the game far more than people on forums trying to use "best guesses" to defeat each other in online arguments.

[HansOlo]

Wowhead only collects data on their own profiles, means users which actively use wowhead with a login.

If you check the wowhead statement on achievements, they always talk about "player profiles".

Rest assured - Blizzard got all the data. They know what people clicks on, they know what they talk about, they know what they spend time on.

They would had released WoW the Sologame long time ago, if they trusted the playerbase you belong to. You are too much maintenance.

[HansOlo]

And yet millions of their players leave short after an expac release. Seems they did not manage to read the data correctly. Seems they used their metrics for flawed results. Seems they are not competent enough to make correct assumptions based on the data then.



No they would not. As it does not fit to their "vision" about the game.

1M people who buys the box and quits - is worth less than 100K people who stays subbed. It's basic math. They don't care about the millions of people. They care about people who likes thier game and stays subbed.

[Caiphon]

Thanks for supporting my point.

Gatekeeping and elitism are no concepts to design a game based on. Simply because they are stupid concepts for a broad audience AAA MMORPG. Based either on incompetence to address anyone else correctly than those that share the developer bias, or based on pure egoism to have a game the game director likes, but which his customers stop playing a few weeks after release.

They should at least try to adress the majority of their players, which do not want to commit all their life to their raiding guilds, but simply players that want to play a session for some minutes on an eveing after hard work.

They cant? They do not know how? Well.. time to stop designing a MMORPG which was meant to adress a broad audience then. I am sure Greg Street has a job for Hazzikostas and all those gatekeepers in his new hardcore-player MMORPG riot currently develops.

Few successful games allow one to access high end rewards by playing 'some minutes on an evening'. Try climbing up the ladder in League, it takes way more time and effort than raiding once or twice a week. FFXIV's raids are brutal yet the game still thrives. By your logic these games should have sank a long time ago.

Hard facts show that plenty of people are fine with, and even prefer, certain rewards and content to be locked behind time, skill and dedication. I for one do not want WoW to become a game where you can simply grind world mobs for mythic gear and/or gladiator, and this is coming from someone who hasn't raided mythic/heroic for a decade. Don't claim the game needs to conform to your ideals to succeed when there are many, many examples to the contrary. I can enjoy a game without feeling entitled to every single high end reward out there.

[Relapses]

Well, the main reason why wows developers do not publish participation numbers themself is it could show how wrong they are with their "vision".

Imagine someone would use numbers for arguments. And not biased dogmatic approaches. And then imagine good arguments would be used, and not the cries of the loudest voices.

Where would that end? In a game that caters to majorities rather than minorities which have the luck to share the game directors bias?

Because this information isn't important to players. Frankly, we don't deserve to know that information. If it were shared players would just wildly misinterpret it to create all sorts of ridiculous conspiracy theories (just like they do now with the imaginary numbers). It's why I personally balk at any argument that uses subscriber numbers as its basis because even when Blizzard reported these numbers they were never any use to us without knowing their attrition and new player generation figures.

All that said, the developers are not without flaw. Sometimes they can derive the wrong conclusions from this data which lead to boneheaded decisions. (Covenants, in particular, seemed to be borne from this approach.) It's up to us as players to provide feedback about what does and doesn't work but also, importantly, why it does or doesn't work. A lot of feedback I see on forums stops at "Blizzard {x feature} sucks, fix it," with no elaboration on why or how to fix it. It's extremely difficult for Blizzard to be able sift through pages and pages of this kind of useless feedback to find actual good faith discussion about the way the game is designed. That's why I find "data-driven" opinions exceptionally offensive. Often times these players aren't looking to provide feedback, they're just looking for a reason to call the developers stubborn or incompetent... accusations which have absolutely no use in a good faith discussion about how to improve things in the game.

[HansOlo]

Oh yeah, because it could contradict some developer ideas. Especially about who the majority of their players are and that most players do not like to commit to raiding guilds. Hazzikostas in shambles!



Oh yeah, because blizzard did not stop reporting subs because they went down. Oh please. And no, neither statistics nor numbers are able to distract from how to design a game, those tools should help the developers to do decisions rather than doing decisions no matter what the numbers show as they do it currently. They do not use those tools. And they do not talk about numbers simply because they contradict everything they believe is great in the game. No, mythic raids are not popular. No, high end mythic+ is no gameplay for the masses. And no, rated pvp is not played by millions. What a surprise!

All they like is bullshit for most of their players. That, and only that is the truth. That is the reason many leave. That is the reason WoW is heavily fucked.

They stop reporting subnumbers because of confirmation bias. It affected thier stocks, when people like you would spam doomsday threads, while completely ignoring the nature of running a company.

They for a fact openly said that subnumbers is not for judging the quality of the game. There are better metrics for that.

[Relapses]

Oh yeah, because it could contradict some developer ideas. Especially about who the majority of their players are and that most players do not like to commit to raiding guilds. Hazzikostas in shambles!



Oh yeah, because blizzard did not stop reporting subs because they went down. Oh please. And no, neither statistics nor numbers are able to distract from how to design a game, those tools rather should help the developers to do decisions rather than doing decisions no matter what the numbers show as they do it currently. They do not use those tools. And they do not talk about numbers simply because they contradict everything they believe is great in the game. No, mythic raids are not popular. No, mythic+ is not gameplay for the masses. And no, rated pvp is not played by millions. What a surprise!

Think about it -- they reported a 5 million subscriber loss in a single quarter. If they were really actually embarrassed by this number or trying to obfuscate the narrative as you imply... don't you think they could have, y'know, just stopped reporting it the quarter where they had the biggest subscriber loss in the games' history? I think that loss may have spurred on their desire to use different metrics to show how WoW was performing but it's also important to keep in mind that back when Blizzard was riding high on 10M+ WoW subs that WoW was pretty much the only thing they had. By the time WoD rolled around in 2015 they had OW on the horizon, D3, Hearthstone and HotS all contributing to their bottomline. WoW subs are less important for investors when there's more revenue streams available.

I digress. I know I'm talking to a brick wall here. I just find it ironic that you want to know information that has absolutely no use to you so you can have a "good faith" discussion about how WoW is designed while you're spending 100% of your time constructing elaborate conspiracy theories which paint WoW's developers as anti-consumer. I hate to break it to you buddy but if Blizzard were nearly as anti-consumer as you seem convinced their product wouldn't still be as relevant as it is twenty years after its release.

[Caiphon]

They care about the question if they find the gameplay in their game they like themself.

That... is totally not how multimillion dollar corporations operate. Don't ever think designers and developers get to spend these budgets without justifying the expenses to the board and the shareholders. Indie developers get to make games that cater to their own tastes, folks like Hazzikotas don't have that kind of luxury.

If they would listen to majorities, WotLK classic would have a dungeon finder.

Did you not bring poll results where the majority actually said 'no' to having a dungeon finder?

[Relapses]

No, actually 70% out of 10000 votes were in favor for a dungeon finder. Earlier votes with around 30000 votes on reddit even had a 80% pro dungeon finder result from way earlier, even when classic tbc was fresh.

I voted in favor of the RDF but I also support their decision not to add it. It'd be nice to have but it's also understandable that its existence in Classic would push the game in the direction which ultimately resulted in its creation in the first place. It's almost like such design choices are impossible to reduce to binary "yes/no" answers and there's a lot of nuance that can be glossed over if you rely solely on such feedback to support your argument.

[Relapses]

My point is they give a fuck about what their players want. This one proves it really well.

The devs do not like the dungeon finder? The dungeon finder stays out.

Man, I even typed it out in plain English and the point still completely evaded you. It's about more than just what the developers "like" and more about what is best for the long term health of the game. There is nuance to their decision not to add the RDF which is completely lost if the only thing you have to support your argument in favor of it is, "look at this poll where all these people say they want it!"

[Eosia]

Wel, the designers of WoW actually are the ones which decide how the game is designed. That is how Blizzard works.

They are NOT 100% independent in that though. They still have to answer to Kotick and the C-Suites of ActivisionBlizzard, its parent holding company. The bean counters there have a say too. Too much of a say lately. A former Blizzard dev let us in on the dirty little secret in the Fallout76 subreddit . As he put it, the WoW team decides to implement something, Ion takes it to those bean counters and asks for 3 months and 10 developers. The bean counters come back with 5 developers and 6 weeks. It's not a negotiation.

[Caiphon]

No, actually 70% out of 10000 votes were in favor for a dungeon finder. Earlier votes with around 30000 votes on reddit even had a 80% pro dungeon finder result from way earlier, even when classic tbc was fresh.

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Wel, the designers of WoW actually are the ones which decide how the game is designed. That is how Blizzard works.

I hope at some point even the shareholders are done with how bad the developers perform. But probably MTR save their asses every time and Blizzard would not expect WoW to ever get back to top simply because they watch lifecycles and see WoWs lifecycle at its end.

I distinctly recall you using this image to claim people wanted dungeon finder in classic... when 88.8% literally said 'no'. Folks called you out for it as well.

[Relapses]

I do not give a shit about how much the devs internally debated to come to the conclusion that the dungeon finder sucks. As much i do not give a shit about how Hazzikostas convinces everyone in hour long talks that mythic raiding is the best thing since group sex. The result is the same. It is a stupid decision to remove the dungeon finder simply as a vast majority of their players wants it ingame. That is the final outcome. That the devs do a change they think is great, decided in their echo chamber and in their ivory tower no player has ever seen and no player would ever be part of.

Exactly that is the tunnel vision i talk about. The devs are blinded by their own bias, by their own expectations to what the players want. And no, most of their players give a shit about mythic raids. Most of their players give a shit about rated pvp. And most of their players do mythic-0 once to never return, but surely do not play it as a permanent competition...

Those devs are far away from their playerbase, and no matter how smart they debate in their inner circle, they have long forgotten what their community and their players want. They are disconnected. Rather than creating that PR shitshow called "player council" they should have asked normal players, and always different ones.. i am really sad how far away they are from everything except their own idea.. but we can see the results in almost every new expac. Gameplay noone wants with no rewards except you play the gameplay the devs like..

lmfao once again I don't even think you understand what a good faith discussion is. You're so convinced that the developers are just looking at data and saying, "fuck these people, we're going to do the opposite of what players want!" that you can't even entertain the possibility that an alternative perspective exists. Realm identity be damned, social interaction be damned, Blizzard seeking to keep retail and Classic experiences independent from one another be damned. None of this matters. The only thing matters is a Twitter poll by some no-name where players were given a binary choice on a complicated feature with all the nuance of a brick through a window.

I... I don't know what else to say at this point. I'd hope one day you grow out of this extremely myopic way of framing your thoughts but I know you're just one Bellular video away from having your anti-Blizzard sentiments validated so it's a hopeless endeavor.

[Echo of Soul]

I love how this is supposed to be some sort of 'gotcha'. Yes, it's gatekeeping. That isn't a bad thing. If you want to gear and progress, play the game the way its been designed for the past 2 decades. If you don't, play a different game. You aren't entitled to play every single game that exists, and you aren't entitled to games dramatically altering the way progression works because you want more SinGlepLayEr ExpEriEnces in your MMORPG.

You haven't played the game for those two decades have you? We used to have paths to the second best gear in the game that didn't require premade group content. It took a much longer time than the premade paths but solo and/or queued paths existed. When Blizzard removed those casual paths with greater frequency the game started losing more and more subscribers.