There needs to be more single player content

[Relapses]

A timer is a timer but not all the timers serve the same purpose.

WoW timers are there to emphasize fails. D3 timers are more “ehi, try to beat it but no big worries if you fail it”.

...by that logic you just don't like timers? Like, what's the purpose of a timer if there's no punishment for failing? I'm struggling to understand your position here.

[Coldkil]

Zero downtime is the reason I love ARPGS like Diablo and hate playing in groups. Stopped playing M+ also because I couldn’t afford wasting half of my time searching for a group.

This is actually a reasoning i'm doing pretty consistently lately. I love raiding in wow because of two main reasons - playing with friends and being able to just log in and do what i wanted to. Pretty sure would be the same with an m+ static group.

I'm keeping an eye on d4. IF it's really a good game and not something as short-sighted as D3, i can see myself playing that much more (while still playing wow for the raids with my guild).

[chiddie]

...by that logic you just don't like timers? Like, what's the purpose of a timer if there's no punishment for failing? I'm struggling to understand your position here.

You can have a timer that provides additional loot or bonuses if you beat it (notice “additional”) or you can have a timer that provides you nothing if you fail it.

Given I am not a fan of timers (Dark Souls say hello) - and you know, we had some interesting chitchat about this in the past - because for me they are a cheap way to measure skill, I do recognize that some of them are better thought than others.

[schwarzkopf]

...by that logic you just don't like timers? Like, what's the purpose of a timer if there's no punishment for failing?

You don't need a punishment for failing, you just need no reward .. the timer just makes it a zergfest, I prefer the good old days when you planned pulls and used CC and stuff.

All they need to do is NOT decrease the key level when you fail to complete on time (reduce it when you fail to complete), unless you choose to. It is that simple.

[chiddie]

This is actually a reasoning i'm doing pretty consistently lately. I love raiding in wow because of two main reasons - playing with friends and being able to just log in and do what i wanted to. Pretty sure would be the same with an m+ static group.

I'm keeping an eye on d4. IF it's really a good game and not something as short-sighted as D3, i can see myself playing that much more (while still playing wow for the raids with my guild).

I am 100% sure than in the short-medium period M+ing with friends only is fun. I know because I was into a friends guild from Vanilla to end of Cata and I remember those times in dungeons with a big smile on my face, even if M+ weren’t a thing back then.

But when you have not this luxury anymore and your spare time drastically diminish, well, you soon realize you just can’t waste half of your time searching for someone to do stuff with instead of doing stuff itself.

I have big hopes on D4 too, today I just received an invite for the end game beta (even if I didn’t even opt in because I don’t have time XD), if and when NDA will fall off I will be more than glad to share my thoughts.

[Yriel]

Or people enjoy different genres of games and trying to make every game identical is kinda moronic.

Why not just play a game you enjoy rather then complaining that a game doesn't redesign itself for your personal taste?

Because this game is being redesigning all the time. Even your favourite endgame activities are later additions with M+ being quite recent considering WoWs lifetime.
So it doesn't seem too far fetched to try to influence the next inevitable redesign with something they like.

[lllll]

I prefer the good old days when you planned pulls and used CC and stuff.

When was this "good old days"?

[schwarzkopf]

When was this "good old days"?

Probably a decade ago or so, I remember when I last used polymorph

[Relapses]

You can have a timer that provides additional loot or bonuses if you beat it (notice “additional”) or you can have a timer that provides you nothing if you fail it.

Given I am not a fan of timers (Dark Souls say hello) - and you know, we had some interesting chitchat about this in the past - because for me they are a cheap way to measure skill, I do recognize that some of them are better thought than others.

I'd argue if the pass/fail for the timer isn't a big deal then the timer being there in the first place is kinda pointless but I understand your angle a bit better now.

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Probably a decade ago or so, I remember when I last used polymorph

CC still has a place in modern dungeons. You can, for example, sheep a mob that's casting to stop its cast. Granted, it's not the same as it was in, say, OG MGT, but as we've seen with Classic TBC even MGT "back in the day" was the exception not the rule.

[lllll]

Probably a decade ago or so, I remember when I last used polymorph

Then you're not playing any difficult content in the present time. We regularly plan the pulls and have to use CC in m+.

[chiddie]

I'd argue if the pass/fail for the timer isn't a big deal then the timer being there in the first place is kinda pointless but I understand your angle a bit better now.

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CC still has a place in modern dungeons. You can, for example, sheep a mob that's casting to stop its cast. Granted, it's not the same as it was in, say, OG MGT, but as we've seen with Classic TBC even MGT "back in the day" was the exception not the rule.

Well, to an extent I can also cope with having nothing if you fail the timer, but in order to compensate this you should at least have EASY and FAST ways to try the timer challenge again.

You need GR keys to enter GRs in D3, but obtaining keys is braindead easy and fast. I started my yesterday evening session with zero keys and after 1 hour and a half I logged out with 85 keys (and that’s because I also cared to loot stuff in Neph Rifts, else I would have more than 100).

It seems to me that in WoW everything is thought to make you waste the most time possible, but in the wrong way.

[schwarzkopf]

We regularly plan the pulls and have to use CC in m+.

And I dated Elizebeth Hurley in my youth ... lol.

If you are 'planning' mid dungeon, then you aren't doing it right for M+

[lllll]

And I dated Elizebeth Hurley in my youth ... lol.

If you are 'planning' mid dungeon, then you aren't doing it right for M+

Who said planning is done mid dungeon?

[schwarzkopf]

Who said planning is done mid dungeon?

Well - can't very well do it before, have no idea what CC will even have before we start - and short of the tank sometimes CCing 1 mob on pull - the rest is wham bam thank you mam.

[Nymrohd]

Well - can't very well do it before, have no idea what CC will even have before we start - and short of the tank sometimes CCing 1 mob on pull - the rest is wham bam thank you mam.

I mean the dedicated groups that are pushing M20+ know each other, play with voice com and plan the pulls on addons beforehand.

[lllll]

Well - can't very well do it before, have no idea what CC will even have before we start - and short of the tank sometimes CCing 1 mob on pull - the rest is wham bam thank you mam.

How do you not know what CC you will have before you start?

[Celement]

That's not why they did it and I dare you to find an official quote saying that they did.

It's the most likely reason they did... not everything in life needs a quote.

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For the same reason I didn’t really cope that much with Command and Conquer serie but I loved Age of Empires serie: the environment. I like WoW fantasy style, I don’t like the Witcher fantasy style or Final Fantasy fantasy style.

That’s why I would just love a single player RPG based on Warcraft universe.

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D3 rifts do have timers but I really never in 10 years thought for ONE time “damn if only there wasn’t a timer”, even when pushing high GRs. And WITHOUT EVEN NOTICING you are naturally pushed gently to try and finish them in the fastest way possible. I dare say I LOVE those timers because every time I beat my previous time I feel sooo satisfied. If you take too much you can just review your build and/or lower the difficulty level, you’ll only get less rewards (not lower level rewards, LESS rewards).

This happens when timers are designed in a good way and cope well with gameplay. When the design is poor and timers are there only to punish, you end up with horrible visions.

I get liking an IP I enjoyed command and conquer and dawn of war a lot and had to watch them be destroyed but being so in love with an ip you pass up new and from your perspective better games isn't the way to deal with it.

[Biggles Worth]

Honestly this wasn't even a problem until they fucked up raiding. They made a lot of mechanics where one person could fuck up the pull for 19 other people.

A lot were put off by that and raiding never really recovered from that, even with less of those type of mechanics since then. People didn't mind raiding and looked forward to it more than the solo experience because the barrier to entry wasn't very high. But now you need all these addons and watching the guides, min/maxxing other areas to make sure you get that 1-2% increase on raid night..... it's just become ridiculous.

I loved Ulduar for the reason I needed no addons for the fights. It was simple and fun.

[Caiphon]

I am 100% sure than in the short-medium period M+ing with friends only is fun. I know because I was into a friends guild from Vanilla to end of Cata and I remember those times in dungeons with a big smile on my face, even if M+ weren’t a thing back then.

But when you have not this luxury anymore and your spare time drastically diminish, well, you soon realize you just can’t waste half of your time searching for someone to do stuff with instead of doing stuff itself.

I have big hopes on D4 too, today I just received an invite for the end game beta (even if I didn’t even opt in because I don’t have time XD), if and when NDA will fall off I will be more than glad to share my thoughts.

Solo shuffles work wonders in these situations, near instant queues during the evening. People for some reason think PvP is for no-lifers but unless you're aiming for like the top 5% (2100+ arenas, Diamond rank in MOBAs) it's really the pinnacle of casual gaming. You can play half an hour a day and still have fun.

[Celement]

Solo shuffles work wonders in these situations, near instant queues during the evening. People for some reason think PvP is for no-lifers but unless you're aiming for like the top 5% (2100+ arenas, Diamond rank in MOBAs) it's really the pinnacle of casual gaming. You can play half an hour a day and still have fun.

It's more an extremely small community and a redicoulsy high gear grind. WoW pvp isn't every well designed and at higher ratings when players know what they are doing cds almost become scripted.

WoWs pvp make or break skill ceiling is faking a cast or loSing.