There needs to be more single player content

[Mysterymask]

I didn't take ANYTHING out of context. At all. Thats total garbage, and you know it. Deep down, you know it. You know it because i NEVER claimed FF has everything wow has, not once. In fact, i pointed out there ARE differences. But to try and claim that wow is super special and unique because it has fucking DRUIDS? Jesus Christ.

This is just one massive strawman. Nothing you are saying has ANY basis at all. Its honestly just ramblings.

Honestly he isn't wrong on the druid front and not the existance of the class...

The big difference in final fantasy classes is there's a GIANT lack of customizability compared to wow
If you put 2 Reapers in a room with the same gear they are essentially the same outside of looks meanwhile 2 druids can have drastically different play styles with spec, talents, pvp talents, etc etc. Race in wow also plays a giant difference compared to final fantasy a Lalafel and Hgorthar legit play exactly the same when you compare to a Troll and Night Elf Druid for example.

As much as everyone's like "FF14 releases 2 new classes every expansions" they miss the fact that 1 FF14 class is essentially the same as 1 Wow spec

Is that a bad thing? No different styles different ways to play the fact that I can play a Ninja in 14 and when I feel like it I can click a button and then I'm a Summoner is neat but if you need more depth to your classes then wow Is the way to go

[arkanon]

Honestly he isn't wrong on the druid front and not the existance of the class...

The big difference in final fantasy classes is there's a GIANT lack of customizability compared to wow
If you put 2 Reapers in a room with the same gear they are essentially the same outside of looks meanwhile 2 druids can have drastically different play styles with spec, talents, pvp talents, etc etc. Race in wow also plays a giant difference compared to final fantasy a Lalafel and Hgorthar legit play exactly the same when you compare to a Troll and Night Elf Druid for example.

As much as everyone's like "FF14 releases 2 new classes every expansions" they miss the fact that 1 FF14 class is essentially the same as 1 Wow spec

Is that a bad thing? No different styles different ways to play the fact that I can play a Ninja in 14 and when I feel like it I can click a button and then I'm a Summoner is neat but if you need more depth to your classes then wow Is the way to go

You are confusing specs and classes and jobs. Compare two resto druids, and honestly tell me they have any meaningful differences. They dont. This, ironically, is one of the more common complaints about wow - everything is cookie cutter and plays very similar. Saying "hur dur wow has druids" is no different to saying "hur dur FF has bards". Its not the topic of discussion, and its just apologist bullshit to say otherwise.

What "depth" does wow offer? Honestly, what are you even talking about? If you want to be competitive in a given spec, there is, and always has been, a specific spec you have to play. Maybe you guys just havnt played FF?

Either way, this was never intended as a FF Vs WoW discussion, there are enough of those already. My FF response was specifically regarding the comment that WoW has unique aspects (classes, aesthetics) and my response was simple: So does FF. I never once claimed one was "better" than the other, simply that the games are, generally, VERY similar and one appeals to some more than the other.

I never ONCE said "ff has everything wow has and is identical" - quote me where i did. What i suggested is that many VERY successful alternatives to wow exist that have carved out their own niche: Some by being quite different to wow, some by being VERY similar to wow with minor differences (FF). To a dedicated MMO player those differences are quite large - especially if you focus on PvP. But many GW2 players mock wows PvP systems, and pretty much every MOBA player just scoffs at wows arena. Em sure this comment will draw out every professional MOBA player and Gladiator, but its unlikely i will believe any of you. Fact is, wows pillar humping "pvp" is a joke when compared to TRUE competitive pvp titles.

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While we talk about being "dishonest" i think it is dishonest to ask players that want their gamestyle covered to play other games. As other games do not cover the world and the story we talk about.

Final Fantasy is not Warcraft. Elder Scrolls is not Warcraft.

And WoW is NOT FF, and wow is NOT TES.

[arkanon]

Well, so simply lets agree not to ask players who want their gamestyle covered to leave then to play other games.

What? Sorry but i have no idea what you are trying to say. I want players to play whatever fucking game they enjoy. I dont want people to play wow simply because "derpy derp its wow is da best nofink is goodera dan wow!". I want people to play what they enjoy, and would rather wow wasnt filled with angry people who hate the game but just cant let it go.

[arkanon]

Sorry, my intention simply is to get rid of comments like "If you do not like the game as it currently is, play another".

Why? Why is that not a valid opinion? Do you believe wow can be changed to suit EVERYONES needs and specifics? Is there not a certain point where that advice is good?

For example, if I said "wow should be more like Forza, and mounts should be able to drift and I want to add spoilers and do jumps" would you think that's a good idea, or, maybe, just maybe, would everyone be better off if I just played Forza?

[Triceron]

Why? Why is that not a valid opinion? Do you believe wow can be changed to suit EVERYONES needs and specifics? Is there not a certain point where that advice is good?

For example, if I said "wow should be more like Forza, and mounts should be able to drift and I want to add spoilers and do jumps" would you think that's a good idea, or, maybe, just maybe, would everyone be better off if I just played Forza?

Except WoW has room to adapt and add that gameplay in where it fits, like as a minigame or a new travel system.

Such as Dragonriding exists now because it's literally adapting a mechanic from Guild Wars 2 and not just listening to ignorant fools who are saying 'go play Guild Wars 2 then'

WoW was always a game built on bridging the best concepts of other games into itself and polishing it to a high degree. It doesn't mean it has to be everything fans want, but there is certainly an argument to have popular things added if it makes sense. Not sure why there is so much resistance against WoW improving itself with more content really. The game has already changed significantly over the years with more systems, more content and plenty of minigames, why the sudden resistance against something new?

The principle of shutting down people's requests and ideas is stupid since it's still up to Blizz to decide what goes in the game or not. Even a Forza style racing minigame would be fine for some new expansion that features super speedy vehicles in a new zone. From there fans can debate on how much they'd like to see it. IMO there is no reason to completely shut it down on the assumption that WoW is not the type of game that adds new gameplay.

[Relapses]

Except WoW has room to adapt and add that gameplay in where it fits, like as a minigame or a new travel system.

Such as Dragonriding exists now because it's literally adapting a mechanic from Guild Wars 2 and not just listening to ignorant fools who are saying 'go play Guild Wars 2 then'

Dragonflight is not on the same scale as something like a single player progression system. That comparison is a wee bit disingenuous.

[Caiphon]

Sorry, my intention simply is to get rid of comments like "If you do not like the game as it currently is, play another".

Asking for a different genre of game won't get you or the game anywhere, that's the thing. Arguing for/against group loot or for/against level squishes is one thing, asking WoW to essentially become Monster Hunter is something completely different (and nigh impossible). Doesn't help that you keep insisting it is somehow unethical for an MMORPG to not be like Monster Hunter.

Look at it this way - if you post in a Monster Hunter/Sekiro/Skyrim community saying the game must now introduce multi-winged 20 man raids and 3v3 arenas you'll get laughed off the site. Asking for WoW to embody those games isn't any different.

[jeezusisacasual]

Why? Why is that not a valid opinion? Do you believe wow can be changed to suit EVERYONES needs and specifics? Is there not a certain point where that advice is good?

For example, if I said "wow should be more like Forza, and mounts should be able to drift and I want to add spoilers and do jumps" would you think that's a good idea, or, maybe, just maybe, would everyone be better off if I just played Forza?

To be fair if we had Thousand Needles Drift in WoW it would be a one and done expansion feature xD

[Caiphon]

But i do not ask for a different genre. I ask it to be a MMORPG which also adresses solo players and matchmade players. Do i have to repeat that 60% of the players play mainly solo and that the most successfull way to create groups in WoW is using matchmaking?

I ask to implement gameplay of a MMORPG to a MMORPG which simply adresses many.

Considering you count Torghast as a huge success I don't really think 'many' will agree with you on what success means. You're also assuming that players refrain from higher end content because they're morbidly afraid of using the group finder (most likely extrapolating from your own fears) but the reality is that casual gamers aren't really that interested in tackling high end content to begin with. You can enjoy the entirety of WoW's world and story just by doing Heroics and LFR. M+ and guild raids are merely an increase in difficulty and unless you want to 'git gud' at this game it's not something you need to invest in.

You pretend to speak for many but tend ask for things that no casual gamer would ever wish to do, like grinding 10,000 mobs to craft mythic level gear. What kind of casual gamer prefers to grind world mobs for hundreds of hours rather than using group finder to run low M+ for half an hour? In reality you speak for a very small subset of players who can totally nolife any game but have a very specific and intense fear of making or applying to groups. This isn't a large demographic (and certainly doesn't overlap with the casual crowd) and Blizzard isn't likely to cater to that niche, especially after the smoking trainwreck that was Torghast prior to 9.2. That's why 'many' people are saying it would be better to pursue a game that is designed for solo play - it's not like they're hard to find.

tldr: Stop acting like you represent the many when you actually represent a handful of solo grinders.

[Echeyakee]

Why do people struggle to understand that there is plenty of demand for solo play in MMO? Not just something to do solo, but to do it while still being within the overall multiplayer experience.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

People asking for something is completely fine, obviously! Customers can ask for things in products lol

The dishonest part is when folks rationalize why their pet issue also happens to be 100% what the game should do for the most success.

[Caiphon]

Based on numbers and how many players played it, it is a success.

And I've already mentioned at least twice that people played Torghast because they needed to. It was a necessary step in getting class specific legendaries which was absolutely mandatory for any type of endgame content. I've said this before and I'll say it again, just because 90% of the population work to make a living doesn't mean work is mankind's favourite pastime. Quite audacious of you to complain about your arguments being ignored when more than half of anyone's arguments seem to fly right over your head.

No, actually i simply talk about the fact that way more players play groups using matchmaking, be that matchmade dungeons, LFR or queued up battlegrounds. Hazzikostas alternative "Premade group finder" is not remotely as successfull.

Notice that matchmade content is ALWAYS easier/at a lower tier than premade content. Every single game out there has fewer players playing difficult content, because difficult content is difficult. Casual gamers generally don't play such content because they are not willing to invest a ton of effort to gaming, hence the term 'casual'. You want to think it's groups that put people off harder content because you for some reason can't stand being in one.

Also note that group finder wasn't designed as an 'alternative', or to even compete with dungeon finder in the first place - it's basically group finding via general chat made easier. Notice how people don't really spam chat for groups anymore. Group finder is doing its job pretty well.

But you have no ongoing gearing progression doing so. You have gearing progression in premade group raids and mythic+. Mythic+ progression is what i would like to see in matchmade gameplay.

And matchmade m+ would essentially work exactly like current m+ because higher difficulties will require higher ilevel cuts. The harsh reality is that you're not clearing m12 with questing/normal dungeon gear and matchmaking would be a complete disaster if we didn't have ilevel thresholds because if you're thrown in with a 200 tank you just lost your key. Again this is something I've already addressed in this very thread, one of many many things that flew over your head. And no saying you can't clear m12 with questing gear isn't 'gatekeeping', it's an objective observation.

What people "invest in" should not be you to decide. Simply allow them to play the game as they like. And obviously, m+ is not remotely as successfull as it needs the "premade group finder" to work. While matchmaking could be easily added to a personal accountability gameplay implementation of both dungeons and raids. And no, it would not cost a complete raid tier to implement that.

Notice that the operative word is 'need'. I'm saying that trying out normal raids or m+ is purely optional, that you're not required to go through them to enjoy other types of content. M+ is the most successful form of new content implemented since Cataclysm, you're making a fool of yourself here claiming it wasn't a success yet somehow Torghast is. You'd be hard pressed to find one out of 100 players who think Torghast was a bigger success than m+.

I also ask to add gearing progression to matchmade gameplay and solo activitiy, which you seem to ignore. Grinding mobs only would be the last resort, but Blizzard seems to implement that for their all new shiny crafting system in Dragonflight. I would change the crafting system so you could get materials from daily missions to venture out into the world to overcome a challenge or an obstacle to get the materials needed.

As stated above you can ask to let people queue random for m+, it'll just make no difference whatsoever as ilevel thresholds would most certainly be imposed. If that makes you happy then by all means ask for it. Solo activity? No. Impossible to balance as Torghast has shown, and also nigh impossible to be enjoyable, again as Torghast has shown. WoW combat is designed around tank/healer/dps interactions and there's only so much you can do in solo fights. It's not like you can manually deflect attacks and deliver 10-hit combos like in Sekiro or Tekken.

Challenge in crafting? I don't see how that's even possible outside infinite grinds or mythic exclusive drop components. How do you challenge crafters when everything can be looked up on Wowhead in three minutes? Not to mention the majority has specifically asked for less homework in the game, putting gear upgrades behind dailies literally means more homework.

Obviously, rather than running low M+, many quit. Seems it is not what i would call overly successfull. Especially not for casual gamers. And yes, grinding also would not be for them. As i wrote, i would replace grinds by a mission system with actual gameplay, rather than what the mission system is nowadays with sending NPCs to do the job. I would even give optional NPC companions to the player to be able to master a dungeon mission if needed. You know, a kind of mercenary system.

Those that quit just aren't interested in doing challenging content and that's completely fine. Low m+ isn't exactly difficult but it still requires more effort than what many casual gamers are willing to give. Groups aren't the problem here, challenge is. And there already is a tremendous amount of content available for people who want to play the game but don't want difficult stuff - world quests, mount collection, renown, transmog, pet battles, achievements. World quests already fill the 'missions with gameplay' niche. And if none of those interest you, then you just quit until the next major patch/expansion.

As for progression in almost no game do casual gamers receive the same level of rewards that hardcore gamers get. Monster Hunter is a solo-to-small group game yet you're not getting Valstrax gear without killing Valstrax. This means casual gamers do get stuck with gear progression and that's perfectly fine, as there are plenty of other things to do in this game (and they don't even require gear or skill, something that can't be said about some other games). I haven't raided in years, my ilevel is pretty basic and I don't want to get heroic or mythic gear without clearing heroic or mythic. If neither lore nor collection nor environment/art interest you and getting higher item ievels is your utmost priority are you even a casual to begin with?

Torghast only was bad because the rewarding system was bad. If it had actual progression, with real gear rewards, it could have been great. But rather than that Hazzikostas tried his 100th incarnation of borrowed power alongside with temporary buffs as like in a rogue like game.

It was bad because it had gear progression behind it in the form of legendary upgrades. People were forced into it whether they liked it or not, and the vast majority didn't enjoy it. Plus high level Torghast runs are also a bit of a challenge (albeit a much less enjoyable one) so if Torghast had raid-like progression casual players would have reached a point where they can't progress anymore, which makes it no different from m+ or raiding. Any sort of skill based gear progression means casuals can only climb so high, and the sole alternative to skill based progression is, you guessed it, infinite grinding.

Stop acting as if i asked for large grinds for many. I never did. I asked to make grinding an alternative to challenges. While you ignore the fact that also casual gamers could play challenges.

Casual gamers can play challenges just fine, we have raids, m+, rated battlegrounds and arenas. We can add more but it won't address your issue - that gear progression stops for casuals at some point where the challenge becomes too much (which is why I consider this a non-issue). Grinds make nobody happy as progression-drived hardcore gamers will be forced into it screaming and kicking while casuals simply won't have the time to grind out hundreds of hours.

I am not going into just another cycle of answering to the same ignorance you show in this debate over and over. If you go on with almost ignoring every of my arguments, i will ignore your posts as well.

Bit rich considering how you very actively repeat yourself over and over without addressing what everyone else has to say. And stop hiding behind the term 'casual' to express your demands when you clearly speak for people who just despise groups.

[HansOlo]

Funny how you do not quote what you respond do. Is there so few respect left for the people you want to talk with? Or ist that pure arrogance?

Beside that it obviously is no "pet issue" if millions quit within the few first weeks.

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At least one of the achievements i posted is not mandatory. Also, infact nothing is mandatory in the game, as 17% of the players even quit while leveling. Your preception is that every gameplay up to the point you have fun is literally "mandatory".



This is an endless stupid argument based on the fact we talk about a computer game, which is in itself completely optional. If you are up to the point where you play most of this game as a mandatory choire, you should question your pastime effort.



Ad hominem again.



Every other MMO genre and even existing MMORPG have matchmaking for harder difficulties. MOBAs completely rely on strong matchmaking. Group brawlers do. And games like FFXIV do. WoW is a clear exception, where the developers use a fallacy that matchmaking is not suitable for challenging gameplay, while the only challenge they actually ever designed was choreographed gameplay. They could learn proper systems from other games which rather use personal accountability as a way to implement personal challenges even in groups.



Casual just means they do not play regularily and not on schedules, and do not want to commit to groups for a long time, especially raid groups or rated pvp groups. Casual gamers could very well face challenging gameplay in solo components as like matchmade gameplay that relies on personal accountability.

In this special case you completely ignore the fact i talk about personal accountability. You ignore that, again and again, as it simply contradicts your arguments.



Matchmaking could do this way more successfull if the game was designed for matchmade group play. You simply ignore that, and rather support a "premade group finder" that is all about selection and social darwinism, while a good matchmaking system could include all players and not only the few that have the highest ilevel.



No, it would not, as m+ is about group effort. Greg Streets water cooler from Cataclysm showed that this fails. It needs a gameplay that is, once again, no matter how often you ignore it, based on personal accountability.



It is simply a design that does not work for matchmaking. That is the problem.



And again, we are back to bandwagon fallacies. Will you ever learn from the debate?



No, it would not if the matchmade dungeon progression gameplay was based on personal accountability. In all your responses you ignore the changes i propose to the system itself which actually enables the different difficulties for a complete different gamemode than premade mythic+.



Nothing of Torghast has shown that dedicated solo player content is "impossible to balance". You simply pull that out the thin air without showing any evidence. The only problem Torghast has shown is that it did give no proper rewards, as like gearing progression which would be needed for Torghast.



WoW combat is designed around roles based on the gameplay. A pvp tank has no real role other than "hard to kill", while a pve group tank has the job to keep aggro and use cooldowns. Based on the idea to design roles differently based on gameplay a tank spec could have to play a complete diffferent role in matchmade gameplay than in choreographied gameplay. A tank in a matchmade group also could be harder to kill, but would have his own challenges as like pulling cooldowns at the right time. You could ask almost any spec to work like that. A healer would support, but also would have to use cooldowns for his own sake. A damage dealer could be limited to cc and damage, which would be his skill check. Heck, every single solo player RPG and even crpgs with group settings are designed around personal accountability for the character you play yourself. All of that is viable for matchmade group play in a MMORPG as well.

Problem is, you do not even get what i talk about. You cannot even understand what my changes are about.



Yeah. And thats the problem. You think you know everything, but do not see the world from the perspecitive of a solo players. Okay, just to show you how it could work. Imagine there was a mission system which would send you out into a world to collect materials from rare mobs which dwell in a dungeon or a cave. You could rather chose to play that in a group with choreography, or you could chose to play that solo, or your could chose to hire mercenary NPCs to get there together with you. Every of those gameplay components would have dedicated gameplay. A typical raid would have group choreography. A typical solo player setting would all be about knowing your skills and using your specs abilities right when needed. And a npc mercenary squad with you as party member would be about managing your groups abilities and about your own accountability.

All of that is possible, and you simply do not even know it is.




With something we game developers call "challenges" and "puzzles". You know, imagine you had a cave where a dragonkin dwells in. You either could solo that, but would need your skills, or you could use an npc group to have a more strategic gameplay, or you would have a premade group and you had the gameplay you can imagine only. And your mission is to get to that mob, to slay it, and to collect the rare material from it. You would either return to the questgiver then to take another mission, or you could chose a higher level challenge for higher rewards.



You invoke a majority you do know nothing about. Again.



How do you know? Casual gamers have no real challenges. World gameplay is simply stupid. Matchmade dungeons stop at progression level heroic. And everything else, premade group content, premade raids, rated pvp, is just way too much commitment.



The problem is not they are not willing. The problem is they do not play in premade groups, no matter if it needs commitment or any kind of meritocracy, simply, as these players are far behind other premade players. People are not interested in competitions. Not interested in having to do a gearing up race game, as you have to play regulariliy for it. If the challenge was personal, if it was on the level of the player with gearing progression, it could very well adress casual gamers for a lot longer than 2 months.



No, premade groups are. Locking everything behind premade groups. Having to have schedules. Having to be on par with gear in a given time frame. That are the problems and not challenging gameplay. As long there is gearing progression, higher difficulties could always be ofset by gear.



The problem is, people want challenges. They just do not want schedules. Or the meritocracy blizzard forces them into. No, a casual gamer wants to give a shit about having the correct gear level for a premade group. Yes, many casual gamers still want a challenge and gearing progression to have something to aspire to and to actually have rewarding and fun gameplay. That is exactly the problem you and the developers do not understand.



Sure they do, in crpgs the players that play the show mode also get the teleport gloves as like the ones in the hard difficulty, simply because gear in a typical rpg does have the inherent use to succeeed in special situations. Have you even ever played a typical rpg?



You get proportional rewards for group gameplay, and even get noticeably stronger items from solo hunts without anyone in your group, so what do you talk about? Really, it is even more effective if you are lucky in Monster Hunt to play solo.



Seems you want to adress the "you only want the best gear for nothing" narrative now. Heard that often enough. Debunked that often enough with asking for horizontal gear progression, as like having special gear bonuses for gear you get from a dedicated component. As like we split PVP and PVE gear, there could be premade group pve gear, solo gear and matchmade gameplay gearing progression with different set bonuses and even item specific skills which make you stronger in your dedicated gameplay.

Gear has a use, and posing in a city with your mythic raid gear is just one of them. Rather than gate keeping gear for a few only, i propose to give gear to many playstyles and to make it useful for a gameplay specific progression system.

But i doubt you get what i talk about. As you ignored my past details i gave about the system i propose.



You could be a rock hard very skilled challenge playing casual solo player without having any interest in the newest mount skin or pet look and without any interest in playing premade groups. I know, that is both new to you and the devs, but just think about this for a moment.

Sure, transmogs are popular, but limiting all casual gameplay to that as rewards is rather stupid, simply because there is not only the very dumb player that wants to send turtles to the water for his new fancy mount, but a complete continuum of different skill ceilings and ideas about what a game could be. And sorry, the numbers of those that leave actually show how few feel adressed by the current implementation.



No, it had not, as you did not need the legendaries to play Torghast alone. You once again ignore what gearing progression is about. It is, again, and again, and again, for you to hopefully understand it at some point, about getting gear you need to master higher difficulties of your gameplay. As like getting ilevel 210 in Torghast 3 to become able to master Torghast 4. You actually needed no gear at all, simply the "rogue like" buffs used right.



You do not know anything about majorities. Again.



Torghast had challenges, but not based on gearing, but simply on chosing the correct bonuses you got from playing a session, which you lost once you left Torghast. Which is completely detrimental to MMORPG gameplay. If you look for a pervert rewarding scheme, it was the one from Torghast. It neither offered real gearing progression nor gameplay that mattered for longer than the dust you had to collect. And people were done fast with that.

If you do not want to be "forced" to play something like Torghast, you would support a system with horizontal progression, which means you would allow players of other gameplay to collect the gear they need for their gameplay rather than a vertical progression where very gear matters for every gameplay component. But i doubt you even get what i talk about. As you did not in the past.



Ok, what is a casual gamer?

A casual gamer is someone who plays occasionally. Which excludes playing on a schedule. Which excludes the idea to be on par with gear within a given time frame. Now think about the question how you can progress in premade group content, if you do not commit to a premade group, or if you do not have the gear needed to be chosen within Hazzikostas social darwinist premade group tool?

The only suitable and useful way for casual gamers which cannot play on schedules is matchmaking and solo gameplay. As matchmaking simply can be a fair system which selects same level players and challenges based on it. And as you can fail as much as you want in solo content without having to care about a premade group.



The problem is you have not understood what i propose nor want to. It is really impossible to discuss with someone who neither wants to understand proposals nor has the ability to understand them.



Yeah. You repeat your accusation i ask for grinds while i told you i do not. I told you about the mission system i propose and you ignore it.

I guess it is time to ignore your accusations, your ad hominems and your inability to even grasp what i talk about. Have a nice day.

I'm disappointed in myself. I thought that maybe we could have constructive discussion(that was kinda exciting).

It turns out that you are just swinging that hammer. We also need people like you, bashing the crap out of the game, just because.

[Caiphon]

This is an endless stupid argument based on the fact we talk about a computer game, which is in itself completely optional. If you are up to the point where you play most of this game as a mandatory choire, you should question your pastime effort.

You are literally denying the fact that people plough through unwanted content to be able to play content that they enjoy. People have gone through tedious 'homework' throughout the entirety of this game's history, from grinding Aldor/Scryer rep for shoulder enchants to scouring the Broken Isles/Kul Tiras for artifact/azerite power. How does one even discuss this game with someone who claims every piece of centent is done because the players throughly enjoy it? How would you explain the absolutely devastating community response to Torghast if you believe everyone was actually having fun? Through some conspiracy theory involving invisible 'shy casuals'?

Every other MMO genre and even existing MMORPG have matchmaking for harder difficulties. MOBAs completely rely on strong matchmaking. Group brawlers do. And games like FFXIV do. WoW is a clear exception, where the developers use a fallacy that matchmaking is not suitable for challenging gameplay, while the only challenge they actually ever designed was choreographed gameplay. They could learn proper systems from other games which rather use personal accountability as a way to implement personal challenges even in groups.

Have you actually raided in FFXIV, because I did during ARR and Heavensward and unless we're talking about 'casual' raids like Primals the serious content was premade, just like WoW raids are premade above Normal difficulty. And FFXIV raids are very similar to WoW's raids, I don't know where you're getting all this 'personal accountability' from. You're fucked if some doofus gets knocked off the platform, just like how it works in WoW. It's a group effort that has a strong emphasis on minimising mistakes.

Casual just means they do not play regularily and not on schedules, and do not want to commit to groups for a long time, especially raid groups or rated pvp groups. Casual gamers could very well face challenging gameplay in solo components as like matchmade gameplay that relies on personal accountability.

Being casual has nothing to do with avoiding groups. During SL Season 2 I played an hour a day of 2v2 arenas with a single partner and I was by all applicable means a casual gamer. Back in Ulduar I played around 6 hours a week, 4 of those hours spent raiding with the guild. All this personal accountability nonsense is simply your preference period. It is not a criteria that defines casual gaming, which literally means you don't spend a lot of time or effort in playing games. Sure casual gamers can tackle challenges, they're just at a disadvantage with less time and energy available. And no it doesn't have to be through matchmaking.

Matchmaking could do this way more successfull if the game was designed for matchmade group play. You simply ignore that, and rather support a "premade group finder" that is all about selection and social darwinism, while a good matchmaking system could include all players and not only the few that have the highest ilevel.

And there we have our problem - redesigning the damn game for the sake of more solo/matchmaking play is not on the table. By the gist of it you just want ilevel to go away because you've been kicked from groups for it, but if you're going to make gear irrelevant then why even have gear in the first place? And how do you propose we make that happen? By setting everyone to the same ilevel? Again, why have gear in the first place? You'd need to completely overhaul how gear and progression works, yet you claim this won't even cost Blizzard a raid tier?

And do revel in the irony of invoking Social Darwinism in what you've already stated is a computer game. The term doesn't mean what you think it means, being better at WoW doesn't make you a more advanced human being.

No, it would not, as m+ is about group effort. Greg Streets water cooler from Cataclysm showed that this fails. It needs a gameplay that is, once again, no matter how often you ignore it, based on personal accountability.

You just throw that word around like some panacea yet have no idea how to make it work. As long as content is done in groups it becomes a group effort, premade or no. If someone fucks up, the group suffers for it. If you want everything to depend on you and you alone it needs to be some iteration of Torghast which for the last time wasn't well received.

It is simply a design that does not work for matchmaking. That is the problem.

Any high end PvE works better with premades than being placed with randos. PvP is different since the opponent can be randos as well but it isn't everyone's cup of tea.

No, it would not if the matchmade dungeon progression gameplay was based on personal accountability. In all your responses you ignore the changes i propose to the system itself which actually enables the different difficulties for a complete different gamemode than premade mythic+.

Again you throw your little mantra around, but how will you make 'dungeons' of all things depend on 'personal accountability'? If some bloke dies in the fire do you expect it to not affect the rest of the group?

Nothing of Torghast has shown that dedicated solo player content is "impossible to balance". You simply pull that out the thin air without showing any evidence. The only problem Torghast has shown is that it did give no proper rewards, as like gearing progression which would be needed for Torghast.

Torghast was the biggest heap of manure this game's ever had in terms of balance. Try running the same difficulty with something like a prot pally and something like an elemental shaman and you'll understand. Tanks, healers and DPS work very differently in solo play (to the extent that they had to completely homogenise healers, what a joke), add to that the differences in CC, self healing, availabilty of stealth and such and it simply becomes impossible to balance. Of course we can make everyone healers and control that stupid shade thing instead but then is it even WoW?

WoW combat is designed around roles based on the gameplay. A pvp tank has no real role other than "hard to kill", while a pve group tank has the job to keep aggro and use cooldowns. Based on the idea to design roles differently based on gameplay a tank spec could have to play a complete diffferent role in matchmade gameplay than in choreographied gameplay. A tank in a matchmade group also could be harder to kill, but would have his own challenges as like pulling cooldowns at the right time. You could ask almost any spec to work like that. A healer would support, but also would have to use cooldowns for his own sake. A damage dealer could be limited to cc and damage, which would be his skill check. Heck, every single solo player RPG and even crpgs with group settings are designed around personal accountability for the character you play yourself. All of that is viable for matchmade group play in a MMORPG as well.

That... is already a part of any sort of dungeon play ever and is not a 'completely different role'. Tanks need to pull manageable groups at the right time and use defensives appropriately. Healers need to heal, use defensives and help with the DPS if things are stable enough. That still doesn't change the fact that everything's a group effort - how will you DPS if the tank can't keep the mobs off you? How will you tank if the healer won't top you off? Even if the game 'scores' your performance like some action RPGs you'll still get straight Fs if you wipe repeatedly. What's the point?

Problem is, you do not even get what i talk about. You cannot even understand what my changes are about.

To think you were the one complaining about Ad hominem. Oh the audacity.

Yeah. And thats the problem. You think you know everything, but do not see the world from the perspecitive of a solo players. Okay, just to show you how it could work. Imagine there was a mission system which would send you out into a world to collect materials from rare mobs which dwell in a dungeon or a cave. You could rather chose to play that in a group with choreography, or you could chose to play that solo, or your could chose to hire mercenary NPCs to get there. Every of those gameplay components would have dedicated gameplay. A typical raid would have group choreography. A typical solo player setting would all be about knowing your skills and using your specs abilities right when needed. And a npc mercenary squad would be about managing your groups abilities and about your own accountability.

You're simply asking for single player dungeons which is just Torghast all over again. Yeah no thanks, there are literal news articles describing why that content was a failure, everyone was asking for it to either be removed completely or removed from the gearing process. And if the rewards of this 'system' still depend on difficulty levels it does nothing for casuals anyway, which for the billionth time doesn't mean people who hate groups. The closest thing to your proposal in an MMORPG setting would be the Blue Mage gameplay in FFXIV, which does not affect gear progression or even story progression - in fact you can't even enter story arcs with it.

Having NPCs fight with you would be similar to the AI modes in League or other MOBAs, these don't typically provide progression either.

With something we game developers call "challenges" and "puzzles". You know, imagine you had a cave where a dragonkin dwells in. You either could solo that, but would need your skills, or you could use an npc group to have a more strategic gameplay, or you would have a premade group and you had the gameplay you can imagine only. And your mission is to get to that mob, to slay it, and to collect the rare material from it. You would either return to the questgiver then to take another mission, or you could chose a higher level challenge for higher rewards.

Lol game developer, sure. Nothing more to say here other than that Torgahst was a massive failure. Skills indeed. I could live with a minigame mode like the Blue Mage but it shouldn't count toward progression, just like in FFXIV.

How do you know? Casual gamers have no real challenges. World gameplay is simply stupid. Matchmade dungeons stop at progression level heroic. And everything else, premade group content, premade raids, rated pvp, is just way too much commitment.

Applying for a m+ group in group finder takes a literal second. If that's too much commitment so is going through multiple difficulties in your Torghast-style single player dungeons. You make it sound like on the fly m+ groups hold two hour interviews and are partners for life, I just apply, get accepted, run the m+ and never ever see them again. Too much commitment indeed.

The problem is not they are not willing. The problem is they do not play in premade groups, no matter if it needs commitment or any kind of meritocracy, simply, as these players are far behind other premade players. People are not interested in competitions. Not interested in having to do a gearing up race game, as you have to play regulariliy for it. If the challenge was personal, if it was on the level of the player with gearing progression, it could very well adress casual gamers for a lot longer than 2 months.

Low m+ is totally doable with heroic dungeon/LFR gear. Don't have those? Then run random Heroics and LFR, it's literally content with gear progression. There's no race involved unless you want to be the nth person on server to clear m15 or something, and you wouldn't want that if you're not one for competition.

No, premade groups are. Locking everything behind premade groups. Having to have schedules. Having to be on par with gear in a given time frame. That are the problems and not challenging gameplay. As long there is gearing progression, higher difficulties could always be ofset by gear.

Low m+ has schedules? How? Groups are literally made on the fly in group finder, heck even mid m+ works like this. Don't have gear? Run lower difficulties, there are more parties than you think. Then eventually you'll have enough gear to go for high m+. Surely you've no wishes to be in the top 1% of m+ players when you specifically said you're not interested in competition?

The problem is, people want challenges. They just do not want schedules. Or the meritocracy blizzard forces them into. No, a casual gamer wants to give a shit about having the correct gear level for a premade group. Yes, many casual gamers still want a challenge and gearing progression to have something to aspire to and to actually have rewarding and fun gameplay. That is exactly the problem you and the developers do not understand.

I repeat, there are plenty of groups running low m+ that only require Heroic/LFR levels of gear. And none of them require pre-scheduling, groups are made on the fly. Perfect for the casual gamer, unless he has some morbid fear of playing with other people. Oh and we also had Mage Tower as a challenge, pity people cried rivers about it.

Seems you want to adress the "you only want the best gear for nothing" narrative now. Heard that often enough. Debunked that often enough with asking for horizontal gear progression, as like having special gear bonuses for gear you get from a dedicated component. As like we split PVP and PVE gear, there could be premade group pve gear, solo gear and matchmade gameplay gearing progression with different set bonuses and even item specific skills which make you stronger in your dedicated gameplay.

Possible but unnecessary and just a whole lot of clutter. M+ already addresses people who don't play on a schedule and making an entire game mode at the level of dungeons and raids that cater solely to single players? Bad investment of resources, especially considering how the last incarnation of solo dungeons was received. Like I said, even FFXIV's Blue Mage is essentially a minigame.

Gear has a use, and posing in a city with your mythic raid gear is just one of them. Rather than gate keeping gear for a few only, i propose to give gear to many playstyles and to make it useful for a gameplay specific progression system.

As long as progression is tied to difficulty the highest tier of gear will always be available to a few. Your grand solo dungeon design doesn't change this. League is mainly matchmade, doesn't change the fact that Master is some 0.n% of the playerbase.

But i doubt you get what i talk about. As you ignored my past details i gave about the system i propose.

Your proposals basically boil down to Torghast.

You could be a rock hard very skilled challenge playing casual solo player without having any interest in the newest mount skin or pet look and without any interest in playing premade groups. I know, that is both new to you and the devs, but just think about this for a moment.

Yeah you could... but why throw precious resources towards that little niche of hardcore yet somewhat sociophobic players? I'm sure we have furries in WoW, doesn't mean the company should bend over backwards to accomodate them.

Sure, transmogs are popular, but limiting all casual gameplay to that as rewards is rather stupid, simply because there is not only the very dumb player that wants to send turtles to the water for his new fancy mount, but a complete continuum of different skill celigings and ideas about what a game could be. And sorry, the numbers of those that leave actually show how few feel adressed by the current implementation.

WoW can't accomodate every single gaming style and preference in existence, what a surprise. Say, why not accomodate the fighter crowd and make special skills that activate through complex joystick movements? I'd love that personally.

No, it had not, as you did not need the legendaries to play Torghast alone. You once again ignore what gearing progression is about. It is, again, and again, and again, for you to hopefully understand it at some point, about getting gear you need to master higher difficulties of your gameplay. As like getting ilevel 210 in Torghast 3 to become able to master Torghast 4. You actually needed no gear at all, simply the "rogue like" buffs used right.

You're seriously claiming legendaries aren't needed in Torghast? Without one the handicap is immense. Or have you never gone beyond like 10?

Torghast had challenges, but not based on gearing, but simply on chosing the correct bonuses you got from playing a session, which you lost once you left Torghast. Which is completely detrimental to MMORPG gameplay. If you look for a pervert rewarding scheme, it was the one from Torghast. It neither offered real gearing progression nor gameplay that mattered for longer than the dust you had to collect. And people were done fast with that.

They were done 'fast' yet were crying rivers and seas over not being able to be done with that place quicker. Says a lot about the content.

If you do not want to be "forced" to play something like Torghast, you would support a system with horizontal progression, which means you would allow players of other gameplay to collect the gear they need for their gameplay rather than a vertical progression where very gear matters for every gameplay component. But i doubt you even get what i talk about. As you did not in the past.

Who in their right mind would invest even more into Torghast after seeing the trainwreck that ensued? And weren't you whining about Ad hominem?

The only suitable and useful way for casual gamers which cannot play on schedules is matchmaking and solo gameplay. As matchmaking simply can be a fair system which selects same level players and challenges based on it. And as you can fail as much as you want in solo content without having to care about a premade group.

Low to mid m+ is not 'scheduled', end of story. You're thinking mythic raids. And failing in matchmaking will still piss your group off, trust me.

I guess it is time to ignore your accusations, your ad hominems and your inability to even grasp what i talk about. Have a nice day.

If pretending you 'won' the debate makes you sleep easier at night then by all means do so, but I doubt 'many' are convinced.

[Otimus]

All the game needs is fun and engaging content for people who don't do Mythic+, Raid, or ranked PVP.

There's no reason for those things to be the be all end all of the game at the expense of basically everything else. You can have a game not dead-focused on the endgame and only SPECIFIC kinds of endgames, without also ruining the endgame. It's not really, or at least it shouldn't be, an either or situation.

[Relapses]

All the game needs is fun and engaging content for people who don't do Mythic+, Raid, or ranked PVP.

There's no reason for those things to be the be all end all of the game at the expense of basically everything else. You can have a game not dead-focused on the endgame and only SPECIFIC kinds of endgames, without also ruining the endgame. It's not really, or at least it shouldn't be, an either or situation.

The problem is that such systems already exist and players clearly aren't satisfied. Players, as a whole, will never be satisfied until there's gear parity between all forms of content. WoW has, intentionally, decided that there's a cut-off for gear around the Normal raid difficulty for single-player only content. Most of the arguments I've seen in favor of single player progression systems in this thread boil down to, "well it should be at least Heroic+ item level [because reasons]." Either that or they want to completely reinvent the way gear works in WoW so that Mythic raiders are brought down a peg and WQ enthusiasts are brought up to their level. I don't think either of these options are particularly good for the longterm health of the game.

The current paradigm isn't broken, we don't need to fix it.

[HansOlo]

All the game needs is fun and engaging content for people who don't do Mythic+, Raid, or ranked PVP.

There's no reason for those things to be the be all end all of the game at the expense of basically everything else. You can have a game not dead-focused on the endgame and only SPECIFIC kinds of endgames, without also ruining the endgame. It's not really, or at least it shouldn't be, an either or situation.

People who don't do Mythic, raiding or PvP:

They can revisit backlog of 18years of game production - fully accessible -
They can farm tmog and mounts.
They can level alts.
They can do achievements.
They can do pet battles.
They can do RP.
Etc.

TBH - I have never played a game, where I burned out - not because of current, but legacy content. There is so much stuff to do.

[Otimus]

The problem is that such systems already exist and players clearly aren't satisfied. Players, as a whole, will never be satisfied until there's gear parity between all forms of content. WoW has, intentionally, decided that there's a cut-off for gear around the Normal raid difficulty for single-player only content. Most of the arguments I've seen in favor of single player progression systems in this thread boil down to, "well it should be at least Heroic+ item level [because reasons]." Either that or they want to completely reinvent the way gear works in WoW so that Mythic raiders are brought down a peg and WQ enthusiasts are brought up to their level. I don't think either of these options are particularly good for the longterm health of the game.

The current paradigm isn't broken, we don't need to fix it.

What exactly are you considering fun and engaging content for people who don't do Mythic+, Raid, or Ranked PVP? Last I played, if you didn't do any of that, you were basically told to fuck off or just go do random old content, because there was nothing really fun left to do after about a week of hitting the level cap.

[HansOlo]

What exactly are you considering fun and engaging content for people who don't do Mythic+, Raid, or Ranked PVP? Last I played, if you didn't do any of that, you were basically told to fuck off or just go do random old content, because there was nothing really fun left to do after about a week of hitting the level cap.

You know that WoW is baked on a formula called Mythics, raids and PvP?

They won't and shouldn't turn the game into Sims or Tetris, just because you have no interest in the main aspects of the game. It's a really wierd request and expectation.

[Otimus]

You know that WoW is baked on a formula called Mythics, raids and PvP?

They won't and shouldn't turn the game into Sims or Tetris, just because you have no interest in the main aspects of the game. It's a really wierd request and expectation.

That isn't what I want? I wasn't even asking for single player content. I just want more content that's fun and engaging in addition to that.