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  1. #701
    Quote Originally Posted by Otimus View Post
    All the game needs is fun and engaging content for people who don't do Mythic+, Raid, or ranked PVP.

    There's no reason for those things to be the be all end all of the game at the expense of basically everything else. You can have a game not dead-focused on the endgame and only SPECIFIC kinds of endgames, without also ruining the endgame. It's not really, or at least it shouldn't be, an either or situation.
    People who don't do Mythic, raiding or PvP:

    They can revisit backlog of 18years of game production - fully accessible -
    They can farm tmog and mounts.
    They can level alts.
    They can do achievements.
    They can do pet battles.
    They can do RP.
    Etc.

    TBH - I have never played a game, where I burned out - not because of current, but legacy content. There is so much stuff to do.
    Last edited by HansOlo; 2022-10-02 at 03:11 AM.

  2. #702
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    The problem is that such systems already exist and players clearly aren't satisfied. Players, as a whole, will never be satisfied until there's gear parity between all forms of content. WoW has, intentionally, decided that there's a cut-off for gear around the Normal raid difficulty for single-player only content. Most of the arguments I've seen in favor of single player progression systems in this thread boil down to, "well it should be at least Heroic+ item level [because reasons]." Either that or they want to completely reinvent the way gear works in WoW so that Mythic raiders are brought down a peg and WQ enthusiasts are brought up to their level. I don't think either of these options are particularly good for the longterm health of the game.

    The current paradigm isn't broken, we don't need to fix it.
    What exactly are you considering fun and engaging content for people who don't do Mythic+, Raid, or Ranked PVP? Last I played, if you didn't do any of that, you were basically told to fuck off or just go do random old content, because there was nothing really fun left to do after about a week of hitting the level cap.

  3. #703
    Quote Originally Posted by Otimus View Post
    What exactly are you considering fun and engaging content for people who don't do Mythic+, Raid, or Ranked PVP? Last I played, if you didn't do any of that, you were basically told to fuck off or just go do random old content, because there was nothing really fun left to do after about a week of hitting the level cap.
    You know that WoW is baked on a formula called Mythics, raids and PvP?

    They won't and shouldn't turn the game into Sims or Tetris, just because you have no interest in the main aspects of the game. It's a really wierd request and expectation.
    Last edited by HansOlo; 2022-10-02 at 04:48 AM.

  4. #704
    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    You know that WoW is baked on a formula called Mythics, raids and PvP?

    They won't and shouldn't turn the game into Sims or Tetris, just because you have no interest in the main aspects of the game. It's a really wierd request and expectation.
    That isn't what I want? I wasn't even asking for single player content. I just want more content that's fun and engaging in addition to that.

  5. #705
    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    You know that WoW is baked on a formula called Mythics, raids and PvP?
    It wasn't always like that. Mythics specifically is still relatively new in WoW's life cycle, but was supposedly added because players wanted something to do beyond just raiding and PvP. Even the relationship between raiding and PvP has been different depending upon the expansion.

    Keep in mind, asking for changes because you have no interest in their preferred 'main aspect' of the game is a rather obtuse way to view it. In fact, I'd surmise that the most likely scenario you'd run into is that players saying Blizz either designed or changed the content that they loved doing into something they don't like (whether it's raiding, PvP, etc.). WoW's history is littered with such examples, and I personally feel this is one of the reasons why the game keeps losing active players. Talk to players who loved the game and quit, guarantee the most common answer you'll get is that it's just not fun anymore for various reason. Sometimes this can be a fundamental change in the player, but it can also be because the game fundamentally changed in a potentially bad direction that pushed people out of the content they loved doing.

    Futhermore, this doesn't preclude Blizz from adding more stuff to do in WoW beyond just the three staples, as was the reason why there's three staples instead of two. There's even minor systems (like the pet battling) that may have niche crowds but are still very important for them. While player-driven activities is great, Blizz doesn't need to let players be the only ones to drive it. Otherwise you'll get the scenario that happened with the WoW UI being horrible for so long, as they admitted that the players would fix it with addons so why should they bother?

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    The current paradigm isn't broken, we don't need to fix it.
    Tell that to Blizzard, because they'd disagree with that statement based upon their interviews and reasoning behind certain changes. They've constantly made some changes over the life of the game, some not so impactful while others are very impactful. A more likely scenario is akin to arenas: some developers regretted adding it to the game because of the issues it caused, but since it's part of the game now they weren't sure how to fix it without pissing people off. Same with flying, as they've constantly been trying to address the issues they see around the system. There's many more that have popped up over time and are still a problem but the players may be split over how to deal with them.

    I recall an interview that Blizz did many years ago where they basically talked about how they felt if they didn't change the game (effectively what you call the paradigm) over time, the game would eventually die or at least drive many players away. In many respects, Blizz recognized the overarching pattern but hasn't really addressed or recognized what parts of the game are driving it in relation to their players. Part of it is likely due to stubborness, but another part is likely they're worried about fixing it because there will be short term pain for achieving long term gain. For example, if you add a system or feature that gets players addicted to it despite how much it's destroying their experience, of course taking it away is going to be painful even if it may be necessary. It's akin to someone being addicted to deadly drugs that are going to kill them, but waffling about whether or not to get them treatment because it's probably going to suck for them in the short term and get them mad at you. Even more broadly beyond a system or feature, changing how the game fundamentally works can be just as scary, and that's unfortunately what will be required to turn things around with WoW.

    Many of the changes that have been proposed since 9.1.5 and into Dragonflight are nice and going in a positive direction, but it's still analogous to treating the symptoms and not the disease. The game has fundamentally broken aspects that are either a product of the changes Blizz made themselves or the changing player base of the game. A case can be made that Blizz is partly responsible for the player base they have, either by creating a game that fosters players to expect/behave certains ways or by driving players away due to their actions over time.

    Still, there are aspects beyond Blizz's control when it comes to the players, but that's not an excuse to just throw your hands up and say "Nothing is broken, everything is fine, move along!" Many of Blizz's actions over the past expansions (even in Legion) were made with the intent of short term gain or maintaining the status quo with a long term damaging effect. Eventually the pain will be felt, and we're probably at a point where Blizz is starting to see that... hence the 180 degree shift in some of their policies as of late that shockingly seem to line up with a lot of changes players have been telling them were issues for years. However, I have to stress that many of these changes are very surface level with no real change in their fundamental design policies that are the source of the issues. Basically, the problems will keep coming back because the source issue isn't address or Blizz will still use broken philosophies to create more problems with the same source issue.

    Overall, a paradigm shift needs to occur for the long term health of the game, and even Blizz has openly recognized this. However, they're either worried or stubborn about making such a change because change itself is scary. Be that as it may, change needs to come or the game will effectively die when it doesn't have to.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  6. #706
    Quote Originally Posted by Caiphon View Post
    You are literally denying the fact that people plough through unwanted content to be able to play content that they enjoy.
    you are arguing with someone who consider random bgs or dungeons "solo content" bcs you dont have to make the GROUP it requires yourself...
    i doubt explaining him how reality works will ever works, he is either troll or simply lives in his own delusions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Otimus View Post
    All the game needs is fun and engaging content for people who don't do Mythic+, Raid, or ranked PVP.
    lets be fair, when they try to add some its always "worse thing ever"... by now its imo amazing they still try to add other things than the 3 "pillars"...

    think about visions, i think that was great content, doable solo or in group, easy or dificult, rewarding, with nice progress path, and i would love something like that in game every expansion, but what did it look on forums? nothing but whining and complaining...

  7. #707
    It's an MMO-RPG you weirdos.

  8. #708
    Quote Originally Posted by Otimus View Post
    What exactly are you considering fun and engaging content for people who don't do Mythic+, Raid, or Ranked PVP? Last I played, if you didn't do any of that, you were basically told to fuck off or just go do random old content, because there was nothing really fun left to do after about a week of hitting the level cap.
    There's a solo progression system in the form of ZM dailies in 9.2. It only works in world content and the rewards cap out around Normal raid difficulty item levels. However, you can get a full 4-piece Tier set without ever stepping foot in group content and you'll be a lot more powerful than even Mythic raiders in this world content because of the progression system. Outside of that... well, the game is kind of telling you that you need to engage with group content to further your character's progression.

    Obviously this is just, like, my opinion but I think this is what a MMO -- one specifically which has rested on the laurels of its group content for two decades -- should do. I don't play a FPS game if I want a roller coaster tycoon experience. I'd be rightfully laughed out of any discussion chamber about an FPS making such a ridiculous suggestion but for some reason it's perfectly normal to expect WoW to provide a fully functional single player experience despite the game clearly having an intentional group-oriented design approach.

  9. #709
    Quote Originally Posted by BigToast View Post
    It's an MMO-RPG you weirdos.
    I don't know what MASSIVE multi online has to do with "5 players group instancied content".

    There is a shit tone of things to do alone in real life.

  10. #710
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Someone tell him that there is no gearing progression in ZM simply as you do not need gear to play ZM. You can play it in greens.

    The term for rewards in the stupid world quest gameplay in WoW is "welfare epics".

    Shiny gear you need for nothing you get from literally doing nothing. And what is fun about playing that? Nothing.

    "Send 20 gnomes into the fire". Next day "Send 20 gnomes into the fire". Yeah. What a great fun.

    And in Dragonflight the open world players get flying through loops with their great new dragon tamagochi. And as a reward you get a shitton of dragon food. What a great fun.

    No, not really. But the devs believe it is fun to create that bullshit for the few casual gamers that stay short after release.
    Notice how the man pushes 'solo' content that scales up to high m+ levels (i.e. high end gameplay that casuals are unlikely to arrive at) yet always uses the term 'casual' to justify his demands, and even goes on to claim not catering to his specific needs is somehow a universal injustice to casual gamers. Dishonesty at its finest.

    Everything is based on the false assumption that all casuals for some reason cannot spend two minutes to apply to the many spontaneous m+ groups that litter group finder yet can spend hours upon hours ploughing through Torghast-like single dungeons. When did casual become synonymous with sociophobic?

  11. #711
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    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    You know that WoW is baked on a formula called Mythics, raids and PvP?
    It is. True enough. Also true enough that most of that has less than 50% participation in some cases much less despite Blizzard's efforts and encouragement to go do those things (not including LFR which may or may not be raiding depending on your opinion of it). It's well to remember that Vanilla got the game off the ground without a lot of help from Raids and PVP.

    Formulas get old and worn out over long periods of time and need to be refreshed. My sense is that Blizzard needs to consider that. They likely won't because the top spots on the teams are promoted from within and it's rare that they bring anyone in on the creative/design teams that would give them a fresh POV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    I don't know what MASSIVE multi online has to do with "5 players group instancied content".

    There is a shit tone of things to do alone in real life.
    And the things you do with people you likely don't do them with random strangers off the street that you'll never ever see again. Blizzard seems to think that this sort of thing is social play. It isn't. It never really has been.
    Two rules for living: "Don't go around hurting each other. Try to understand things." — William Least Heat-Moon (Blue Highways)

  12. #712
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    But i do not ask for a different genre. I ask it to be a MMORPG which also adresses solo players and matchmade players. Do i have to repeat that 60% of the players play mainly solo and that the most successfull way to create groups in WoW is using matchmaking?

    I ask to implement gameplay of a MMORPG to a MMORPG which simply adresses many.

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    Yeah, and that is your misconception. Noone asks to change WoWs genre. WoW is still a MMORPG, no matter if leveling is being played solo. WoW is still a MMORPG, if there was no raiding or dungeons. The defining part of a MMORPG is the fact that a large group of players plays alongside or together in an open shared world, and not that everyone has to commit his life to a raiding guild. No matter how often this is being mentioned, you simply ignore that.

    One of the most successfull gameplay components of WoW is solo leveling.

    Solo leveling is “successful” simply because there’s not much else to do if you play solo.

    I like it a lot the FIRST and maybe second time then it becomes only an annoyance if you wanna try out other classes, because the quest line never changes and there are no meanings to significantly decrease the time you need to level up. In D3 once you main levels up the GoE at 50 and LoD at 99, 1-70 with whatever alt takes 1 hour.

  13. #713
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    It is. True enough. Also true enough that most of that has less than 50% participation in some cases much less despite Blizzard's efforts and encouragement to go do those things (not including LFR which may or may not be raiding depending on your opinion of it). It's well to remember that Vanilla got the game off the ground without a lot of help from Raids and PVP.

    Formulas get old and worn out over long periods of time and need to be refreshed. My sense is that Blizzard needs to consider that. They likely won't because the top spots on the teams are promoted from within and it's rare that they bring anyone in on the creative/design teams that would give them a fresh POV.

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    And the things you do with people you likely don't do them with random strangers off the street that you'll never ever see again. Blizzard seems to think that this sort of thing is social play. It isn't. It never really has been.
    I don't care if it's 50 or 100% who don't raid(and people tends to pull numbers up - without any sense of validity or reliability).

    50% compared to what - who are these players? Why are they relevant? Are they still paying for sub - but just doing legacy stuff? Is it still considered success in that case?

    Expecting that more singleplayer content makes the game better is really weird take. I wonder why a company spending around 500M-1B$ on each release doesn't consider that?
    Last edited by HansOlo; 2022-10-02 at 09:38 PM.

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