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  1. #201
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    I mean sure, you can see it like that. You can ignore all the downsides and shortcomings that are blatantly obvious (reduced range, subpar toolkit, lack of uniqueness and utility etc.) until we have the first parses that show exactly what has been criticized - but do we really need to wait for that? You can compare Evoker to other healers. And simply by doing that you see that it just isn't capable of competing with the others besides some very niche stacked fight scenarios - where Shamans will still outperform them due to their better toolkit for such fights. There's not one single scenario where you would say "hey, we need an Evoker now". Stacked fights? Take a Monk or a Shaman. Spread fights? Take a Druid or a Monk. Heavy tank healing? Take a Paladin. Damage while healing? Disc. The one niche for stacked fights is already occupied by Shamans and I cannot see how Evoker could ever outshine them. RShaman has better mobility, the better toolkit and the better mastery.
    C'mon man, I know the spec has issues, but the time-based aspect of their healing is definitely unique.

  2. #202
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    One thing I wonder is how well Preservers do in damage. As we are all new to the class I confess in my dungeon runs so far I haven't made much effort to do damage and focused mostly on healing. I cannot see myself wasting essence on a Disintegrate but Fire Breath can likely be used on cooldown and you will certainly have time to use Living Flame on enemies (if nothing else, just to proc Essence Burst)

    And yeah the spec is very unique and has great cooldowns and utility and an amazing ability to respond to predictable damage. Plus if Devastation ends up sucking, it will be the spec to pick for any of the class specific utilities it offers (Rescue, Zephyr, Time Spiral).

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    One thing I wonder is how well Preservers do in damage. As we are all new to the class I confess in my dungeon runs so far I haven't made much effort to do damage and focused mostly on healing. I cannot see myself wasting essence on a Disintegrate but Fire Breath can likely be used on cooldown and you will certainly have time to use Living Flame on enemies (if nothing else, just to proc Essence Burst)

    And yeah the spec is very unique and has great cooldowns and utility and an amazing ability to respond to predictable damage. Plus if Devastation ends up sucking, it will be the spec to pick for any of the class specific utilities it offers (Rescue, Zephyr, Time Spiral).
    The exact numbers are subject to change, so I don't think there's any point right now to speculate how well will they do. What is important though, is that their damage toolkit in Preservation spec interacts well with healing - through Life-giver's Flame, Scarlet Adaptation, Energy Loop, Essence Burst. That gives you additional incentive to damage, which some other healers lack or lacked (but Blizzard apparently sees the issue, as we've seen some new fun talents introduced, like the toxic rain one for resto shaman).

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    C'mon man, I know the spec has issues, but the time-based aspect of their healing is definitely unique.
    This comes down to how we rate uniqueness. Statis, Echo and Rewind are pretty unique, yes. But that's not what I meant. I was talking about a reason why to bring an Evoker to a group or a raid (that kind of uniqueness) and there just isn't one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    One thing I wonder is how well Preservers do in damage. As we are all new to the class I confess in my dungeon runs so far I haven't made much effort to do damage and focused mostly on healing. I cannot see myself wasting essence on a Disintegrate but Fire Breath can likely be used on cooldown and you will certainly have time to use Living Flame on enemies (if nothing else, just to proc Essence Burst)

    And yeah the spec is very unique and has great cooldowns and utility and an amazing ability to respond to predictable damage. Plus if Devastation ends up sucking, it will be the spec to pick for any of the class specific utilities it offers (Rescue, Zephyr, Time Spiral).
    Keep in mind that while they increased the range for healing skills, they kept damaging skills at 25 yards.
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  5. #205
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Keep in mind that while they increased the range for healing skills, they kept damaging skills at 25 yards.
    That's less important. We have multiple melee healers already, the fact that evoker will need to be closer to the mobs is not nearly as much a problem in instanced content or even in pvp than their healing range is (it's a big problem for devastation in world content or solo but that's a different can of worms). The very nature of Fire Breath will have you be closer to the melee anyway. I'll admit I am also considering the spec for dungeons primarily. I don't think I've ever had a full raid night in the last few years without pushing Rule of Law just so I can reach someone about to die yet out of range and I don't want to see how that experience feels for Preserver. The class will probably work just fine for very organized raids but for my less organized teammates who need 2-3 months to get Ahead of the Curve? Nah. The range makes the class deadweight for us.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    This comes down to how we rate uniqueness. Statis, Echo and Rewind are pretty unique, yes. But that's not what I meant. I was talking about a reason why to bring an Evoker to a group or a raid (that kind of uniqueness) and there just isn't one.
    This trope of "I need a mandatory utility to be invited to raids" is seriously old and tired. Apart from some RtWF/CE guilds, you don't. For the vast, vast majority of players and guilds it's not something that makes or brakes a class (and even having unique utility doesn't guarantee you anything in a CE guild - for example Spirit Link did little for shamans in 9.2). If your class is not super gimped, you get invited for being a capable player; there are enough spots in a raid to fit in a skilled Evoker for sure. If there's a reason why Evoker may feel super gimped in an encounter, it's the range on a spread fight. Not ST healing, not the lack of mandatory utility. Evoker has a unique, fun and - in a proper scenario - powerful toolkit. And somehow we've went from "shorter range causes issues" to "Evoker is bad in everything". It's not, and if the spread issues are adressed, it will see plenty of play. And if we don't see it in a Raszageth WF kill, because it doesn't have its own Power Infusion? Who cares.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    This trope of "I need a mandatory utility to be invited to raids" is seriously old and tired. Apart from some RtWF/CE guilds, you don't. For the vast, vast majority of players and guilds it's not something that makes or brakes a class (and even having unique utility doesn't guarantee you anything in a CE guild - for example Spirit Link did little for shamans in 9.2). If your class is not super gimped, you get invited for being a capable player; there are enough spots in a raid to fit in a skilled Evoker for sure. If there's a reason why Evoker may feel super gimped in an encounter, it's the range on a spread fight. Not ST healing, not the lack of mandatory utility. Evoker has a unique, fun and - in a proper scenario - powerful toolkit. And somehow we've went from "shorter range causes issues" to "Evoker is bad in everything". It's not, and if the spread issues are adressed, it will see plenty of play. And if we don't see it in a Raszageth WF kill, because it doesn't have its own Power Infusion? Who cares.
    Have you read the wowhead article? Have you read beta feedback? This is not a "if it's fun, it's getting played" or a "if the player is capable, an Evoker is worth the slot" discussion. It's a simple Preservation Evoker vs. every other healer discussion, comparing their toolkit, their output and what they bring to a raid. And in that regard, Prevoker brings nothing of worth to shelve any other healer just to have an Evoker. Nothing besides a - your words - powerful toolkit in a proper scenario. Proper scenario is the important part here and that scenario needs to be created by Blizzard first and foremost as of now. And I'm still not sure how this scenario should look like that more mobile healers (Druid, Monk) and better stacked healers (Shamans) could not do the exact same as Evokers, just easier.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm going to main Prevoker no matter what, they can be 50% worse than every other healer and I'd play it just to finally play something new. But there are serious concerns with the class which Blizzard hasn't adressed yet or has just brushed over. It's the lack of communication and discussion about valid criticism and proper feedback that's the major issue here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    That's less important. We have multiple melee healers already, the fact that evoker will need to be closer to the mobs is not nearly as much a problem in instanced content or even in pvp than their healing range is (it's a big problem for devastation in world content or solo but that's a different can of worms). The very nature of Fire Breath will have you be closer to the melee anyway. I'll admit I am also considering the spec for dungeons primarily. I don't think I've ever had a full raid night in the last few years without pushing Rule of Law just so I can reach someone about to die yet out of range and I don't want to see how that experience feels for Preserver. The class will probably work just fine for very organized raids but for my less organized teammates who need 2-3 months to get Ahead of the Curve? Nah. The range makes the class deadweight for us.
    I was trying to point out that the increased healing range of 30 yards means not much when Evokers want to DPS while healing, but are forced into a 25 yard range. It will just make it more difficult to find the right balance and as you said, might relegate Evokers into melee range most of the time anyway.

    Blizzard hasn't substantially updated or fixed Devastation Evoker in months, so I expect at least one last round of Evoker changes before pre-patch - let's see what that update will contain in that regard.
    Last edited by Nyel; 2022-10-05 at 10:20 AM.
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  8. #208
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    The thing is, if tuning ends up favorable for evokers, particular when it comes to damage, I fully expect them to become meta in Dungeons. Their toolkit is just great for dungeons, range will not really be an issue there, they have very good tank defensives (Time Dilation, potentially Stasis), probably the best group mobility tools (Zephyr, Time Spiral).

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Have you read the wowhead article? Have you read beta feedback? This is not a "if it's fun, it's getting played" or a "if the player is capable, an Evoker is worth the slot" discussion. It's a simple Preservation Evoker vs. every other healer discussion, comparing their toolkit, their output and what they bring to a raid. And in that regard, Prevoker brings nothing of worth to shelve any other healer just to have an Evoker. Nothing besides a - your words - powerful toolkit in a proper scenario. Proper scenario is the important part here and that scenario needs to be created by Blizzard first and foremost as of now.
    And the Evoker has toolkit that in stacked scenarios makes it better than any other healers. For example, no other healer is as efficient as Evoker in healing predictable, bursty raid damage. None. So saying Shaman is always better in a stacked fight is wrong - it all depends on the damage characteristics. Saying "but Shaman has better toolkit" is oversimplifying things. Better for what, exactly? On a stacked fight, no Shaman spell can compete with Stasis (which is a 1.5 min CD - for such a powerful ability VERY short) or Rewind. Shaman is great for steady raid damage (HR, Trickle Healing Totem, Wellspring are not well suited for bursty damage); Evoker is amazing for bursty raid damage (though one could argue that it's as good for steady damage, because it's only down to you what to bank in Stasis).

    And yeah, every healer is dependant on the raid & encounter characteristics. For instance, you can ask the same question about a Shaman: why bring one for a spread fight? There's no reason to! Literally none. Yet, outside of RtWF/CE guilds, resto sees a lot of play even on encounters such as Halondrus. How come?

    There are NO crtitical changes needed for an Evoker other than adressing the range issue. Its toolkit is fine, its utility is fine. And if you want mandatory utility that would guarantee you a raid spot - well, sucks to be you, but Evoker is far from the only class that doesn't have mandatory raid CD. And it doesn't need one.
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2022-10-05 at 10:29 AM.

  10. #210
    If Preservation gets the 40 yard range for its healing spells, Evoker healer will be fine. The way bigger problems right now are in the Devastation spec. Preservation is quite easily fixable, if Blizzard is admitting they were wrong on the range and just removes this arbitrary limitation.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    And the Evoker has toolkit that in stacked scenarios makes it better than any other healers. For example, no other healer is as efficient as Evoker in healing predictable, bursty raid damage. None. So saying Shaman is always better in a stacked fight is wrong - it all depends on the damage characteristics. Saying "but Shaman has better toolkit" is oversimplifying things. Better for what, exactly? On a stacked fight, no Shaman spell can compete with Stasis (which is a 1.5 min CD - for such a powerful ability VERY short) or Rewind. Shaman is great for steady raid damage (HR, Trickle Healing Totem, Wellspring are not well suited for bursty damage); Evoker is amazing for bursty raid damage (though once could argue that it's as good for steady damage, because it's only down to you what to bank in Stasis).

    And yeah, every healer is dependant on the raid & encounter characteristics. For instance, you can ask the same question about a Shaman: why bring one for a spread fight? There's no reason to! Literally none. Yet, outside of RtWF/CE guilds, resto sees a lot of play even on encounters such as Halondrus. How come?
    Cloudburst would like to have a word. Wellspring, too. Heck, you can even add a precasted Healing Rain and a follow up with Downpour. All these skills are on a short (<30s) CD and half of them hit all allies instead of just a handful in the case of Evoker. In stacked scenarios Evoker isn't limited by its range, but its toolkit, which is lacking when you need to heal more than just 3-5 targets. Powerful? For sure, as you've said. But still overall lacking. Dream Breath shouldn't have a target cap, it should just scale with all allies. It doesn't even make sense that it's limited to 5 targets.

    Even if you ask "why bring a Shaman to a spread fight" you still would prefer one over an Evoker, because an Evoker would perform worse in that exact same situation. That's my issue with the class. It does not have a niche to be a worthy competitor for a raid slot when you need to sacrifice another healer for that. If you have an open slot sure, bring an Evoker. But if it's a "Evoker vs. other healing spec" situation, there's simply no scenario (yet) where you'd favor one.
    Last edited by Nyel; 2022-10-05 at 10:33 AM.
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  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Even if you ask "why bring a Shaman to a spread fight" you still would prefer one over an Evoker, because an Evoker would perform worse in that exact same situation. That's my issue with the class. It does not have a niche to be a worthy competitor for a raid slot when you need to sacrifice another healer for that. If you have an open slot sure, bring an Evoker. But if it's a "Evoker vs. other healing spec" situation, there's simply no scenario (yet) where you'd favor one.
    It has a niche, and it's stacked healing. It's still better than many other healers in that regard; even if you argue Shaman is better (which is disputable, as it depends on damage characteristics, but lets assume Shaman is better), you're probably not bringing 4 restos to a raid, are you? You argument is: if there's spec X that does this and this better, all other specs are unnecessary. Apply that logic to other facets of the game: "if there's a healer that's best in ST, we don't need any other healer when dealing with ST damage"; "if there's a class that's best in ST damage, we can stack 14 of that class for a Patchwork fight". I mean, there are people who do it (CE/RtWF guilds mainly, like mentioned earlier), but the vast majority of the playerbase doesn't need to do it nor does it care to.

    Evoker has to be competitive; not best or mandatory. And resto shaman is a perfect example of that: it will never be close to optimal on a spreaded fight, but people still play it to great success. Evoker has its niche, and arguing "yeah, but X may be better in that niche" doesn't change that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    In stacked scenarios Evoker isn't limited by its range, but its toolkit, which is lacking when you need to heal more than just 3-5 targets.
    Oh, and arguing things like that without taking into account things like Echo interactions (which you can also apply generously with Temporal Anomaly) is wrong. You can't compare spells 1:1, because those spells interact with eachother, and an Evoker can heal far more than 3-5 targets. It's just done differently.
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2022-10-05 at 11:20 AM.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    ... It's just done differently.
    Yeah, as I said, you need to do twice the hustle for the same outcome. This discussion is pretty fruitless though, I've said what I wanted to say, reviews of Preservation in raid are out, beta feedback has been given. If you disagree with all of that, that's fine. I don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Evoker has its niche, and arguing "yeah, but X may be better in that niche" doesn't change that.
    It does not. It makes Evoker as of now still the least desirable healer due to all of its shortcomings while it offers no upsides to compensate for its downsides.
    Last edited by Nyel; 2022-10-05 at 04:12 PM.
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  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Yeah, as I said, you need to do twice the hustle for the same outcome. This discussion is pretty fruitless though, I've said what I've said, reviews of Preservation in raid are out, beta feedback has been given. If you disagree with all of that, that's fine. I don't.
    You paint it like all the reviews and feedback are universally critical, which is not true. I do agree with some of the reviews, and I don't agree with others. I advise you to do the same, instead of coming here with a compilation of all complaints you've seen or heard.

    On a different note, video of a Prevoker doing Dathea - the fight that's been called the worst for Prevoker, because of spread and area denial.
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2022-10-05 at 04:16 PM.

  14. #214
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    You paint it like all the reviews and feedback are universally critical, which is not true. I do agree with some of the reviews, and I don't agree with others. I advise you to do the same, instead of coming here with a compilation of all complaints you've seen or heard.

    On a different note, video of a Prevoker doing Dathea - the fight that's been called the worst for Prevoker, because of spread and area denial.
    Looked like a lot of fun. Maybe the spec will be competitive after all!

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Looked like a lot of fun. Maybe the spec will be competitive after all!
    One thing, though. You can easily see from the poistioning of the raid that they ARE playing to the Evoker's benefit, so you can assume they are probably a group of friends. Also, the raid is on the smaller side, so you can fit everyone in Evoker's range (most of the time anyway) even while spreading. A random group may not be willing to play to the Evoker's benefit; and in a bigger raid you won't fit everyone in Evoker's range - people will spread around the boss, not just on one side. And as commented by other people, movement abilities are very dangerous on this fight, because of area denial abilities: all the circles you can't enter, all the tornados moving through the arena etc. So in a Mythic raid and in an experienced group of healers Evoker will not fare well here.

    (Will he be still playable... Subject to testing )
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2022-10-05 at 05:03 PM.

  16. #216
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    One thing, though. You can easily see from the poistioning of the raid that they ARE playing to the Evoker's benefit, so you can assume they are probably a group of friends. Also, the raid is on the smaller side, so you can fit everyone in Evoker's range (most of the time anyway) even while spreading. A random group may not be willing to play to the Evoker's benefit; and in a bigger raid you won't fit everyone in Evoker's range - people will spread around the boss, not just on one side. And as commented by other people, movement abilities are very dangerous on this fight, because of area denial abilities: all the circles you can't enter, all the tornados moving through the arena etc. So in a Mythic raid and in an experienced group of healers Evoker will not fare well here.

    (Will he be still playable... Subject to testing )
    Let's just hope there is nothing like e.g. Illgynoth (the EN one).

  17. #217
    Watching this fight (and reading people's opinions) I think Verdant Embrace should come with a short (in the realms of 1.5-2s) immune. As it is, this ability is completely useless in a scenario where you can't stand next to someone. Here, the player with the circle debuff will be in need of healing, but you can't Verdant Embrace him, because you then get the debuff yourself and reset the duration on the other player. A short immune would help immensely, considering how Verdant Embrace works.

  18. #218
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Watching this fight (and reading people's opinions) I think Verdant Embrace should come with a short (in the realms of 1.5-2s) immune. As it is, this ability is completely useless in a scenario where you can't stand next to someone. Here, the player with the circle debuff will be in need of healing, but you can't Verdant Embrace him, because you then get the debuff yourself and reset the duration on the other player. A short immune would help immensely, considering how Verdant Embrace works.
    Sounds like potentially OP. You could use Verdant Embrace on yourself, timing it right to complete avoid certain mechanics then. Not to mention PvP. I think we just need to consider Verdant Embrace to be more situational. Perhaps tie less talents to it and move those to a different green spell

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Sounds like potentially OP. You could use Verdant Embrace on yourself, timing it right to complete avoid certain mechanics then. Not to mention PvP. I think we just need to consider Verdant Embrace to be more situational. Perhaps tie less talents to it and move those to a different green spell
    Yeah, you're prolly right. It's a short CD ability after all, so you could cheese some of the mechanics (and making the immune work for some things, but not for other things, ain't perfect either; makes it too convoluted). So in this particular situation, Echo the player with the debuff and Embrace someone else.

  20. #220
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Yeah, you're prolly right. It's a short CD ability after all, so you could cheese some of the mechanics (and making the immune work for some things, but not for other things, ain't perfect either; makes it too convoluted). So in this particular situation, Echo the player with the debuff and Embrace someone else.
    They could add a choice node somewhere for Verdant Embrace. One option could make it a round trip (fly to player, heal, fly back) and then add something else next to it (a cooldown reduction). But really unless you have immunity while flying (which would be VERY OP for evoker) you'd still trigger any number of raid and even dungeon encounter mechanics.

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