Page 9 of 14 FirstFirst ...
7
8
9
10
11
... LastLast
  1. #161
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Dragon Isles
    Posts
    24,100
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    30 yards is still almost half the area covered by a 40y range healer?

    Yeah, just pull the ripcord Blizzard. Its a neat idea but in practice it just doesn't work.
    It can work if movement is flexible enough and the heals are high enough to compensate. If either of those components aren’t right, it won’t work.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    30 yards is still almost half the area covered by a 40y range healer?

    Yeah, just pull the ripcord Blizzard. Its a neat idea but in practice it just doesn't work.
    Another great suggestion for an exclusive Evoker playstyle was already mentioned: make every heal 25 yards, but let them cast everything while on the move. That would be a unique healing playstyle and it would indeed make them the most mobile class out there. And it would somehow fit their theme. Better than this 25y/30y range, Hover nonsense and always rooting yourself in place for your 3,5 second empower cast.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Another great suggestion for an exclusive Evoker playstyle was already mentioned: make every heal 25 yards, but let them cast everything while on the move. That would be a unique healing playstyle and it would indeed make them the most mobile class out there. And it would somehow fit their theme. Better than this 25y/30y range, Hover nonsense and always rooting yourself in place for your 3,5 second empower cast.
    casting while moving doesn't help when you can't start your cast because your out of range.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    casting while moving doesn't help when you can't start your cast because your out of range.
    But your mobility does indeed help in this case because you can just permanently run around and heal without feeling the need to press Hover. It would be a very mobile playstyle, but you could pretty much avoid every AoE damage while still healing.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    I'm surprised they made this change now, before raid testing. Because that's when all the problems will become more apparent. Let's wait for raid testing - I expect more changes then.
    This. Although, it's such an overpowering issue that they're testing an incremental change now. I'm going to choose to look at this change as a good thing -- Blizzard heard our feedback, and they're making an incremental change. They have this "mid-range" idea held in an absolute deathgrip because they REALLY don't want to change it, but the fact that they were willing to budge even a little bit before raid testing is telling, and a good sign, as far as I'm concerned.

  6. #166
    Scarab Lord Polybius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Under Your Bed
    Posts
    4,109
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Several other classes do, as been already said by experts (not us here in this thread, but top tier players). Evoker is not the most mobile class in the game. A Restoration Druid is as mobile (if not more) and can cast almost all of their skills during movement phases. An Evoker is only mobile when using Hover and even then it cannot cast its most important skills during movement. Druids easily beat out Evokers when it comes to being effective while being mobile. The same can be said about Monks. Evoker is more mobile than Holy Priest, Holy Paladin and Restoration Shaman, but it definitely does not beat Monk and Druid.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Non tab-targeting gameplay is heavily relying on movement where even casters can cast spells during movement. Evoker only can do that when using a specific skill and even then they cannot cast their most important spells because they are not affected by that specific skill.

    Regarding the bold part: uhm. That's mostly not on the healer's part anyway. What you mention are specific, more stacked like boss fights in raids. You have zero control over where ranged players are placing themselves during a fight, which makes this 25 yard range argument pretty futile. At the end of the day a 40 yard range will always be better than a 25 yard range. Always. As a 40y healer you can easily place yourselves in the middle of two damage dealers that are 80 yard apart from each other and heal them without a problem. As an Evoker you simply cannot do that.
    Evoker has an arsenal of spells that launch forward or launch you towards a target. A bit more than 25 yds is ideal but they don't need max range, else you encounter problems like pulling or negating pre-planning that most healers require (see, Divine Star, Light of Dawn, Wellspring and Jade Wind). Healing in a radius of 80 yards has never been ideal for any healer, not even Shaman. Players who are too far away when mechanics don't necessitate it are headless chickens or hunters. Sorry. Most healer AOEs cannot blanket that kind of spread, esp Priest Circle and Chain Heal jumps, you're better off using ST healing in those situations or sticking to clumps.
    Last edited by Polybius; 2022-09-23 at 11:09 PM.

  7. #167
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Dragon Isles
    Posts
    24,100
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrysis View Post
    This. Although, it's such an overpowering issue that they're testing an incremental change now. I'm going to choose to look at this change as a good thing -- Blizzard heard our feedback, and they're making an incremental change. They have this "mid-range" idea held in an absolute deathgrip because they REALLY don't want to change it, but the fact that they were willing to budge even a little bit before raid testing is telling, and a good sign, as far as I'm concerned.
    I really don’t want to see Preservation becoming just another healing spec. I want to see it keep its uniqueness. I believe the mid-range design can work if the spec has appropriate payoffs in other areas.

  8. #168
    I think the best bet would be to give them something like the Hpally mastery where the closer they are, the more benefit they get. Thus they still want to move around, but aren't stuck having to move to provide any healing at all.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    I think the best bet would be to give them something like the Hpally mastery where the closer they are, the more benefit they get. Thus they still want to move around, but aren't stuck having to move to provide any healing at all.
    I'd rather they didn't. Hpal is the second most durable healer in the game with a shield and plate armour while evoker is mistweaver squishy, they'll have a pretty bad time playing the outright close quarters game. Also doesn't suit the 'mid-range' niche that Blizzard is pushing with the class if you punish playing at mid range.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    I think the best bet would be to give them something like the Hpally mastery where the closer they are, the more benefit they get. Thus they still want to move around, but aren't stuck having to move to provide any healing at all.
    I don't know why this isn't the case already. Holy Paladin's mastery would fit Evoker way more. Evoker mastery in general is... very weak, for both specs, for Devastation it's way worse though.

    Heck, if they'd make Evoker a truly mobile caster, they could change the mastery and increase Evoker's healing during movement.
    Last edited by Nyel; 2022-09-24 at 10:24 AM.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    I don't know why this isn't the case already. Holy Paladin's mastery would fit Evoker way more. Evoker mastery in general is... very weak, for both specs, for Devastation it's way worse though.

    Heck, if they'd make Evoker a truly mobile caster, they could change the mastery and increase Evoker's healing during movement.
    Mastery weak numbers wise? Because it's super easy to maintain and "you" dependant, instead of situation dependant like shaman's or paladin's.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Mastery weak numbers wise? Because it's super easy to maintain and "you" dependant, instead of situation dependant like shaman's or paladin's.
    RShaman's mastery is basically the easiest and best for content where it really matters because people always have low health. HPriest and Druid Mastery is usually strong, too. Mistweaver has always been a mixed bag, Paladin mastery is pretty sh*t for Paladins, but could work for Evokers.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    RShaman's mastery is basically the easiest and best for content where it really matters because people always have low health. HPriest and Druid Mastery is usually strong, too. Mistweaver has always been a mixed bag, Paladin mastery is pretty sh*t for Paladins, but could work for Evokers.
    Yea but what's wrong with pres mastery? Is it numbers only? The way I understand it, it's simply a flat increase as long as you keep yourself up.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Yea but what's wrong with pres mastery? Is it numbers only? The way I understand it, it's simply a flat increase as long as you keep yourself up.
    Nothing is really wrong with it, it's just not the best stat for Evoker as long as it goes to feedback yet. It's not bad at all, I just find it unexciting and it barely contributes to the class fantasy. Devastation mastery on the other hand... dogsh*t. Getting weaker the longer a fight goes on, that's fun design for raids.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Nothing is really wrong with it, it's just not the best stat for Evoker as long as it goes to feedback yet. It's not bad at all, I just find it unexciting and it barely contributes to the class fantasy. Devastation mastery on the other hand... dogsh*t. Getting weaker the longer a fight goes on, that's fun design for raids.
    Devastation is indeed unfun. You can balance it numbers wise, but you could well enough divide it in half and give them flat damage increase most of the time. Would be outright terrible in gimmick fights where boss starts below 100% (but we didn't have many of those, so it's probably a marginal problem). At least pres one can sometimes force decision like: can I top myself first and then heal raid? Devastation is mechanically non existent.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Nothing is really wrong with it, it's just not the best stat for Evoker as long as it goes to feedback yet. It's not bad at all, I just find it unexciting and it barely contributes to the class fantasy. Devastation mastery on the other hand... dogsh*t. Getting weaker the longer a fight goes on, that's fun design for raids.
    Your describing every mastery in the game. 38 specs in the game now. I bet you can count on one hand the number of them that are interesting. Almost all of them are "do X more damage/healing"

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Nothing is really wrong with it, it's just not the best stat for Evoker as long as it goes to feedback yet. It's not bad at all, I just find it unexciting and it barely contributes to the class fantasy. Devastation mastery on the other hand... dogsh*t. Getting weaker the longer a fight goes on, that's fun design for raids.
    (Although there is some benefit to devastation mastery, as you're more likely to be dead late in the fight, so it's arguably better to have the bonus up front. Also it lines up perfectly with CDs on pull. Otherwise it's just a numbers issue.)

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    (Although there is some benefit to devastation mastery, as you're more likely to be dead late in the fight, so it's arguably better to have the bonus up front. Also it lines up perfectly with CDs on pull. Otherwise it's just a numbers issue.)
    I mean it's the counter design to every enrage encounter, isn't it? You get weaker the harder a boss fight becomes - basically the last % of a boss are were it's decided if it works out or not, and that's where Evoker becomes a burden? Uhm sorry, who thought this would be a good idea?
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    I mean it's the counter design to every enrage encounter, isn't it? You get weaker the harder a boss fight becomes - basically the last % of a boss are were it's decided if it works out or not, and that's where Evoker becomes a burden? Uhm sorry, who thought this would be a good idea?
    It's not, because it should balanced by the damage you do in the beginning. And in the beginning: it lines up with cooldowns, plus you are alive (which you might not be closer to the fight's end). So in theory, it doesn't matter that you do less damage close to enrage, because thanks to the extra damage you did in the beginning the boss should have less %. It would be a lot worse if they did it the other way around (your damage increases with lower boss %), because then it would NOT line up with CDs, and there's greater risk of dying the longer the fight goes on, so overall, the gain would be smaller.
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2022-09-25 at 05:45 PM.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    It's not, because it should balanced by the damage you do in the beginning. And in the beginning: it lines up with cooldowns, plus you are alive (which you might not be closer to the fight's end). So in theory, it doesn't matter that you do less damage close to enrage, because thanks to the extra damage you did in the beginning the boss should have less %. It would be a lot worse if they did it the other way around (your damage increases with lower boss %), because then it would NOT line up with CDs, and there's greater risk of dying the longer the fight goes on, so overall, the gain would be smaller.
    Its not about balancing damage, its surely possible to make Devastation do roughly the same damage as other classes over an entire encounter, but damage during the first 80% of a boss is not as valuable as damage during the last 20%. For bosses with different phases the later phases are generally more dangerous, and if the boss has an actual enrage it becomes even more pronounced. Less time spend in the more dangerous 0-X% hp is more valuable then less time spend in the less dangerous 100-X% hp.

    That is why execute mechanics are so valued, they give damage increases during the most dangerous and generally important part of the encounter.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •