[PRESERVATION] Build and Talent Discussion

[Rageonit]

Read post #19.

Making things up again. He was talking about mobility being useless when you don't have proper instant casts. FYI, because you're clearly clueless: Empower abilities don't work with Hover. So the longest casts Evoker has. Yet he's not a turret?
Anyway, that's all you got? That one post? Then you're simply a liar. Nobody is calling Evoker useless, like you claim.

Once we get some info from DF raids, I’ll be sure to provide some.

Why not now? Come on, do it for the science. Name encounters where an Evoker would have an advantage - there are so many to choose from! We're just casually talking here about specific scenarios where an Evoker may or may not have advantages over other healers, so give us some of your valuable input.

And BTW, what about that video? The one you've linked - with the guy talking about Evokers feeling terrible in spread fights and literally saying Blizzard might have to increase its range to 40 yards? No more comments on that? I thought you value this guy's opinion.

[Teriz]

Making things up again. He was talking about mobility being useless when you don't have proper instant casts. FYI, because you're clearly clueless: Empower abilities don't work with Hover. So the longest casts Evoker has. Yet he's not a turret?

He said that the playstyle has no place in WoW. In other words, the spec is unworkable/unplayable and that opinion has colored his entire line of argumentation in this discussion.

Anyway, that's all you got? That one post? Then you're simply a liar. Nobody is calling Evoker useless, like you claim.

Again, it's the underlying thought process driving all of his arguments.

Why not now? Come on, do it for the science. Name encounters where an Evoker would have an advantage - there are so many to choose from! We're just casually talking here about specific scenarios where an Evoker may or may not have advantages over other healers, so give us some of your valuable input.

Why would there be encounters favorable for an Evoker when no encounters exist that were designed with them in mind? Again, we won't be able to answer your question until we get DF raids.

And BTW, what about that video? The one you've linked - with the guy talking about Evokers feeling terrible in spread fights and literally saying Blizzard might have to increase its range to 40 yards? No more comments on that? I thought you value this guy's opinion.

He said they felt terrible in spread fights, but not because of the range. Further he said that if their range IS increased to 40yds, their mobility will have to be heavily nerfed in response. That's a far cry from your argument that movement means nothing, since Automaticjak clearly stated that their range limitations isn't the main issue, and that their mobility compensates for their lack of range. That's an argument you have flatly rejected during this entire discussion.

[Rageonit]

Why would there be encounters favorable for an Evoker when no encounters exist that were designed with them in mind? Again, we won't be able to answer your question until we get DF raids.

Encounters are not designed with specific classes in mind. Some encounters simply work for some classes (like a stacked encounter works for a Shaman and spreaded doesn't) because of the tools provided by specs. We know Evoker's toolkit, we have hundreds of encounters designed by Blizzard. People have no problem giving examples of encounters that would NOT work with an Evoker; why is it so difficult to provide examples of encounters where Evokers would be at an advantage? Give us some examples, please.

He said they felt terrible in spread fights, but not because of the range.

Oh, so it's not because of the range? Why then, one sentence later, he suggests that Blizzard may have to increase the range to 40 yards? As a partial solution to that particular problem? I'm confused, care to explain? Or are you going to cherry pick single sentences while ignoring everything else yet again?

[Teriz]

Encounters are not designed with specific classes in mind. Some encounters simply work for some classes (like a stacked encounter works for a Shaman and spreaded doesn't) because of the tools provided by specs. We know Evoker's toolkit, we have hundreds of encounters designed by Blizzard. People have no problem giving examples of encounters that would NOT work with an Evoker; why is it so difficult to provide examples of encounters where Evokers would be at an advantage? Give us some examples, please.

Well no, they're designed around the tools available for multiple classes, since class tools get changed in every expansion. It's rather silly to believe that Blizzard is going to design a new class and not have it be functional in its introductory expansion. So again, we'll know the answer to your question when we get some actual DF raids to test the Evoker in. Those are the fights where their abilities matter, not fights where they never existed in the first place.

Oh, so it's not because of the range? Why then, one sentence later, he suggests that Blizzard may have to increase the range to 40 yards? As a partial solution to that particular problem? I'm confused, care to explain? Or are you going to cherry pick single sentences while ignoring everything else yet again?

Listen again. He said increasing it to 40yds is an OPTION they can take, but if they do that, they're going to have to limit or outright remove some mobility tools (in other words completely erase the flavor of the spec/class). He literally said in the beginning of the video that range isn't the problem, and many people will immediately point to that as THE problem, but they would be wrong.

[Rageonit]

Well no, they're designed around the tools available for multiple classes, since class tools get changed in every expansion. It's rather silly to believe that Blizzard is going to design a new class and not have it be functional in its introductory expansion. So again, we'll know the answer to your question when we get some actual DF raids to test the Evoker in. Those are the fights where their abilities matter, not fights where they never existed in the first place.

I'm not asking questions, I just want you to provide examples of encounters where Evoker would excel. Again, people had no problems providing examples of encounters were Evoker would NOT work, so either do the same or just admit you're unable to provide any.

Listen again. He said increasing it to 40yds is an OPTION they can take, but if they do that, they're going to have to limit or outright remove some mobility tools (in other words completely erase the flavor of the spec/class). He literally said in the beginning of the video that range isn't the problem, and many people will immediately point to that as THE problem, but they would be wrong.

No, you're off again. He didn't say range isn't a problem. He said, quote: "I believe that the range for Preservation is not actually the KEY problem" (he said the same thing in the comment section, saying that "ATM it's not the #1 issue", not that it's NOT an issue). He simply believes that there are bigger problems with Evoker needing attention right now, not that 25 yd is fine. Furthermore, his comments that increasing the range would require nerfs in mobility are pure conjecture. We don't know, he doesn't know. Furthermore, many people (him included) advocate 40 yd range for ST heals (and dispells) to alleviate the issue. His whole intro about "range not being the main problem" serves only to point out that, in his opinion, there are BIGGER problems with the class. Which, you know, isn't exactly a glowing review of the class.

[Nyel]

Turrets can't move while casting spells.

Evokers are the exact opposite of that.

No, they're not. One of their core mechanics, "Empowered skills", roots them in place for several seconds, the longest time for any caster in the game. Their design philosophy makes them the most mobile (debatable) and the most turret class (fact) in the game. Which is the huge issue of its entire design and never made sense, because one completely contradicts the other. If Hover lets us cast empowered skills, we can start talking, but as long as empowered skills can only be cast while completely standing still, the entire design of the class simply makes no sense.

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Also, he never says that range is a problem in the video. He says that the limited range is completely compensated for by the mobility, as I've been saying this entire time. Further, he says that if Blizzard upped the spells to 40yds, they would have to limit Preservation's mobility options significantly.

Sorry, have you watched the video? Not even once does he say that the mobility completely compensates for the limited range. He even lists several scenarios where Evoker's mobility is incapable of doing so.

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He literally said in the beginning of the video that range isn't the problem, and many people will immediately point to that as THE problem, but they would be wrong.

Main problem. He never says it's not a problem. He says it's not the main / key problem. Which again, does not mean that range is no problem at all. It is, as he acknowledges in the video. Maybe rewatch it, because you clearly missed his conveyed message.

[Teriz]

I'm not asking questions, I just want you to provide examples of encounters where Evoker would excel. Again, people had no problems providing examples of encounters were Evoker would NOT work, so either do the same or just admit you're unable to provide any.

I've already answered this.

No, you're off again. He didn't say range isn't a problem. He said, quote: "I believe that the range for Preservation is not actually the KEY problem" (he said the same thing in the comment section, saying that "ATM it's not the #1 issue", not that it's NOT an issue). He simply believes that there are bigger problems with Evoker needing attention right now, not that 25 yd is fine. Furthermore, his comments that increasing the range would require nerfs in mobility are pure conjecture. We don't know, he doesn't know. Furthermore, many people (him included) advocate 40 yd range for ST heals (and dispells) to alleviate the issue. His whole intro about "range not being the main problem" serves only to point out that, in his opinion, there are BIGGER problems with the class. Which, you know, isn't exactly a glowing review of the class.

Start at 0:55. He literally says it isn't a problem.

[Rageonit]

I've already answered this.

You did not, you're dodging the answer, because you don't want to admit you can't give examples of such encounters.

Start at 0:55. He literally says it isn't a problem.

What I wrote are literal quotes, 1:1. And from those quotes, it's obvious he also sees it as a problem, just not the primary one at the moment. You linked this video to prove Evoker's range is not a problem. Not only you didn't prove anything - you also indicated that there are more problems with the class, some being even more concerning.

[Teriz]

What I wrote are literal quotes, 1:1. And from those quotes, it's obvious he also sees it as a problem, just not the primary one at the moment. You linked this video to prove Evoker's range is not a problem. Not only you didn't prove anything - you also indicated that there are more problems with the class, some being even more concerning.

The video quite clearly stated that range isn't the huge massive problem you and others seem to think it is. If you want to ignore what Automaticjak said in the video, that's your business. I'm done with this conversation.

[Gorsameth]

Mobility does not compensate for range, no matter how great that mobility is. The moment you have to find where a player out of range is and move into range, no matter how fast you move, your slower at healing that person then a different healer class who simply clicks his unit frame because the entire raid is in range all the time.

[Rageonit]

The video quite clearly stated that range isn't the huge massive problem you and others seem to think it is. If you want to ignore what Automaticjak said in the video, that's your business. I'm done with this conversation.

Spin it any way you want, but I've only said that the 25 yd range puts Evoker at a disadvantage vs other healers, because you do more work for the same result - you need to constantly move to do the same healing, while they can be more stationary.
I've also asked what are the advantages of Evoker that make him better on specific encounters, but you were unable to provide any examples. So I still don't know what makes Evoker better to offset for the fact that his range is worse.

[Teriz]

Mobility does not compensate for range, no matter how great that mobility is. The moment you have to find where a player out of range is and move into range, no matter how fast you move, your slower at healing that person then a different healer class who simply clicks his unit frame because the entire raid is in range all the time.

As of this writing Blizzard disagrees. We'll see how things develop heading to release. I for one hope they maintain the current design (limited range/high mobility).

[Gorsameth]

As of this writing Blizzard disagrees. We'll see how things develop heading to release. I for one hope they maintain the current design (limited range/high mobility).

Blizzard disagreeing doesn't mean anything, they have made plenty of mistakes in the past.

[Polybius]

Mobility does not compensate for range, no matter how great that mobility is. The moment you have to find where a player out of range is and move into range, no matter how fast you move, your slower at healing that person then a different healer class who simply clicks his unit frame because the entire raid is in range all the time.

I have a feeling this class was not made for unit frame or addon healers in mind. There’s a playstyle no one’s mentioned, using friendly nameplates to go around the group and heal players that way. It’s a playstyle I’ve seen in few healers, like a ‘combat medic’ if that makes sense. closest I’ve seen are GW2 and ESO, would explain some of the autotarget features in DF.

Yes, range is an issue yadda yadda, but a healer that’s learned to constantly move won’t be bothered by it.

Edit: Forgot to add that a healer of this style will have more awareness of the environment and look less at the raid/party frames.

Gonna try to heal this way in Beta and see how it feels.

[Teriz]

Blizzard disagreeing doesn't mean anything, they have made plenty of mistakes in the past.

Blizzard designs the game. Clearly they view this playstyle as viable. I will take a wait and see approach before going overboard and claiming the spec is dead or unworkable simply based on mechanics from the previous expansion's raids.

[Gumble]

With all the mobility and control being added to classes, I'm curious how the limited range will affect them in PvP. In raids, bosses can be designed around it, though it will likely have spillover effects with melee healers like holy and mistweaver, but it can be done.

In PvP, a short range healer that isn't that durable (mail with no shield) definitely feels like a melee stomp train.

We shall see, but they definitely have a CC-ME sign on them.

[Teriz]

No, they're not. One of their core mechanics, "Empowered skills", roots them in place for several seconds, the longest time for any caster in the game. Their design philosophy makes them the most mobile (debatable) and the most turret class (fact) in the game. Which is the huge issue of its entire design and never made sense, because one completely contradicts the other. If Hover lets us cast empowered skills, we can start talking, but as long as empowered skills can only be cast while completely standing still, the entire design of the class simply makes no sense.

You do know that the class has a cooldown that can make those Empowered skills instant correct?

[Nyel]

As of this writing Blizzard disagrees. We'll see how things develop heading to release. I for one hope they maintain the current design (limited range/high mobility).

The thing is, they most likely will, because they're stubborn and dumb when it comes to several design decisions. Then Dragonflight launches, people get to play Evoker and there will be 10000 times the complaints they have right now during beta regarding range. As they're slow af to fix things, they will wait until 10.1 some months after launch when they emergency fix the range to 40 yards. This is 100% going to happen anyway. The thing is, the longer it takes, the less popular Evoker will be. Look at Monk, they never recovered from this.

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Yes, range is an issue yadda yadda, but a healer that’s learned to constantly move won’t be bothered by it.

Edit: Forgot to add that a healer of this style will have more awareness of the environment and look less at the raid/party frames.

That's simply not true because you're always at a disadvantage and solely by that performing worse than competing healers. So while you might not be bothered by it, you're bringing down your entire party by that simple yet meaningful difference.

And healers look less at the raid/party frames? It's basically the only role that constantly has to look at the frames, neither tank nor damage dealers have to, a healer has.

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You do know that the class has a cooldown that can make those Empowered skills instant correct?

Are you joking? Tip the Scales is a 2 minute CD (!) that makes one (!) empower skill instant. Every caster that's immobile has something similar. Yet this doesn't change anything, Evoker is still the caster with the longest cast times by default and to make it even worse, it's part of their design philosophy. Evoker is 50% mobile and 50% turret, but both with a drastically limited range.

[Ielenia]

It isn’t just a movement buff, it’s also the ability to cast on the move.

Which is useless if the person you need to heal is out of range.

Because you need to be within range of your target to even be able to begin casting your spell.

And with a 25y range, your target more often than not is going to be outside your casting range.

Which is why "casting on the move" is not really relevant to the case.


And the fact of the matter that the Evokers "okay" mobility is just a weak band-aid to an issue that shouldn't even exist in the first place: having only 25y range for their spells. Having only little above 60% of the effective range of a healer.

In the overwhelming majority of cases, what you called a "healing turret" is still going to perform better than the evoker. Because while the evoker is still running to get in range so they can start casting a spell, the "healing turret" class is either almost finishing casting their heal, or have done so a global ago by using a strong instant cast spell. To make matters worse, as pointed out, the evokers have some of the slowest casting heals.

Imagine a fight similar-ish mechanics such as the Halondrus fight, for example: a priest, a monk, a druid, etc, would have a much bigger healing coverage and healing output overall while standing still than an evoker being forced to constantly moving around.

[Teriz]

Are you joking? Tip the Scales is a 2 minute CD (!) that makes one (!) empower skill instant. Every caster that's immobile has something similar. Yet this doesn't change anything, Evoker is still the caster with the longest cast times by default and to make it even worse, it's part of their design philosophy. Evoker is 50% mobile and 50% turret, but both with a drastically limited range.

And Temporal Compression that can reduce the charge time by 20%?

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Which is useless if the person you need to heal is out of range.

Good thing you get 70%-30% speed boost on top of it.