[PRESERVATION] Build and Talent Discussion

[Teriz]

Echo itself is a weak healing spell, it requires the replicated spell to actually do something, which is still two GCDs for a heal other classes can cover with one. Living Flame is a terrible healing skill by itself. Rescue is super strong, but bound to a lengthy cooldown and is always putting you at risk to land in a dangerous or fatal situation due to the attached repositioning. For example, Word of Glory, the Holy Paladin counterpart to Echo, is a 315% heal and on top of that its instant. And has several further implications and interactions in the talent tree.

Word of GLory isn't the counterpart to Echo, FLash of Light is. Flash of Light heals at 203% spellpower. Echo pre-nerf healed at 200% in addition to the added ability to copy the next healing spell. Given that bonus ability, Echo was the vastly superior spell. Living FLame's healing was also in line with spells like Healing Wave and Heal, which had 2.5 cast times. Living Flame was actually somewhat better because it had a shorter cast time. I have no idea where you're getting the idea that these are bad healing spells. You could probably make that argument now that they've been significantly nerfed for some reason, but you couldn't make that argument just a day ago.

None of the Evoker heals besides Rescue (lengthy cooldown) and Dream Breath are particularly strong or stronger than heals by classes that cover a 40 (or even 45) yard range.

Yeah, that was demonstrably false. Again, they've been heavily nerfed in the last 24 hours, making Preservation healing weaker than it was before, so clearly Blizzard is seeing something that you're not seeing.

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You argued that higher heal values were intentional to offset for lower range. And now you claim it's because new classes are usually OP...? Make up your mind.

I was responding to your notion that higher HPS to offset range would make them OP. If that's the case, it wouldn't be the first time Blizzard intentionally made a hero class OP in their introductory expansion.

[Nyel]

Word of GLory isn't the counterpart to Echo, FLash of Light is. Flash of Light heals at 203% spellpower. Echo pre-nerf healed at 200% in addition to the added ability to copy the next healing spell. Given that bonus ability, Echo was the vastly superior spell. Living FLame's healing was also in line with spells like Healing Wave and Heal, which had 2.5 cast times. Living Flame was actually somewhat better because it had a shorter cast time. I have no idea where you're getting the idea that these are bad healing spells. You could probably make that argument now that they've been significantly nerfed for some reason, but you couldn't make that argument just a day ago.

No, Flash of Light is not the counterpart to Echo. Echo is a spell that requires special ressources to be cast, so in Holy Paladin's case it's Word of Glory. Living Flame is a weird mix of other classes' Flash Heal / Flash of Light / Greater Heal / Healing Wave etc. (and it's terrible at that because it's almost completely unaffected by talents).

I have no idea if you're not reading any beta feedback or ignoring everything the guy in the video you posted said, because even he mentioned how weak and underwhelming Living Flame is.

Yeah, that was demonstrably false. Again, they've been heavily nerfed in the last 24 hours, making Preservation healing weaker than it was before, so clearly Blizzard is seeing something that you're not seeing.

No nerf happened. They changed modifiers from -40% to 0% and adjusted aura buffs to the skills, resulting pretty much in a net zero change. That's at least what testers in the beta forum say about this. The only heal that has been nerfed was Spirit Bloom.

Blizzard is seeing not much in regards of Evoker because they are ignoring feedback for months now - for both specs. Evoker got basically no mention in the latest beta build as well. Again, read the feedback forum, if you're interested in real opinions.

[Nyel]

By the way this was posted several times already in the beta forums, but I think this would be the best for Evoker and would indeed make them unique:

I personally feel like a good trade off for the range issue might be just letting preservation evokers cast while moving period. take it off hover and just make that the unique flavor of Preservation spec. With the range gimp, the only thing that makes sense with how long some of our channels are is to let it all be cast while moving.
Hover should just be a speed boost that breaks roots/snares. Then you can focus a lot more on getting where you need to be with your other spells and not about standing still and losing range on everyone.

A reduced casting range and being gimped by our most important spells not being able to be cast while moving is no uniqueness, it's a guide to make a class unpopular and bad in real scenarios. What was suggested above would make Evoker the MM Hunter of healers and indeed be something unique.

[Ielenia]

Via talents, Hover can gain an additional charge, 4 additional seconds uptime, and 70% movement speed for the first 4 seconds.

So you can cast Hover twice in the span of a single Tiger’s lust, and Hover lasts almost twice as long (10 seconds vs 6 seconds).

Hover has a 35 second cooldown. Tiger's Lust has a 30 second cooldown. So after you already used your Hover twice in less than 30 seconds, now you have to wait 35 seconds for it to recharge, while TG only needs 30 seconds, so... the monk will be doing two TGs while you use one hover.

Verdant Embrace is 25 yards.

Which still means the evoker would have to run 15 yards just to get in the maximum range for that spell. Meanwhile, the "healing turret" likely already healed them by casting a spell from where they stood.

Its also slow, cumbersome, and not worth mentioning because it’s something you wouldn’t be using in a raid environment as a healer.

How can it be slow when it's instantaneous travel? And if you're not using Transcendence as a healer in high mobility fights, you're not doing it right.

You would be if you didn’t have a variety of movement tools to place you in range.

And the point is that while the evoker is running around just to get in range to be able to cast spells, the other "healing turrets"-- as you like to call them-- have already healed your target and moved on to the next. Remember: being able to cast while moving is useless because you can't even begin to cast spells until you're in range of your target.

Again, if you’re consistently moving more quickly than everyone else, you should have no issue bringing your targets into range.

And while you're wasting time moving, the other "healing turrets" have already healed your target, because they were casting while you were running just to get in range.

Nope, we’re talking about raids here. The PvP discussion is in another thread.

As usual, you're wrong:

BUILDS

PVE - Raiding
PVE - Mythic+

PVP - RBG
https://www.wowhead.com/beta/talent-...VVUUUE8VVQMEBU

This build

PVP - Arenas

This is from the OP. This thread is about discussion of the evoker's preservation spec in its entirety, regardless of where it's being used.

Uh, it doesn’t have to be competitive in current raid mechanics, it has to be competitive in the upcoming raid mechanics.

Which, in their vast majority, they're just going to be rehashes of current and old raid mechanics. Hence my point stands.

[Teriz]

No, Flash of Light is not the counterpart to Echo. Echo is a spell that requires special ressources to be cast, so in Holy Paladin's case it's Word of Glory. Living Flame is a weird mix of other classes' Flash Heal / Flash of Light / Greater Heal / Healing Wave etc. (and it's terrible at that because it's almost completely unaffected by talents).

Holy power is generated by spending on other abilities. You start with Essence and it regenerates over time. So no, it isn't equivalent. You can cast Echo from jump, but you have to use other Paladin abilities to gain Holy Power.

I have no idea if you're not reading any beta feedback or ignoring everything the guy in the video you posted said, because even he mentioned how weak and underwhelming Living Flame is.

It can't be that weak or underwhelming since Blizzard just nerfed it.

No nerf happened. They changed modifiers from -40% to 0% and adjusted aura buffs to the skills, resulting pretty much in a net zero change. That's at least what testers in the beta forum say about this. The only heal that has been nerfed was Spirit Bloom.

Then why were Preservation's heals the only one that changed? Heal for example healed for 295% spellpower on Tuesday, and it's still healing for 295% now.

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Hover has a 35 second cooldown. Tiger's Lust has a 30 second cooldown. So after you already used your Hover twice in less than 30 seconds, now you have to wait 35 seconds for it to recharge, while TG only needs 30 seconds, so... the monk will be doing two TGs while you use one hover.

Hover has 2 charges and lasts 10 seconds. Tiger Lust has 1 charge and lasts 6 seconds.

With that said, clearly Blizzard nerfing the spec's healing means that they're seeing something we're not seeing.

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By the way this was posted several times already in the beta forums, but I think this would be the best for Evoker and would indeed make them unique:

I personally feel like a good trade off for the range issue might be just letting preservation evokers cast while moving period. take it off hover and just make that the unique flavor of Preservation spec. With the range gimp, the only thing that makes sense with how long some of our channels are is to let it all be cast while moving.
Hover should just be a speed boost that breaks roots/snares. Then you can focus a lot more on getting where you need to be with your other spells and not about standing still and losing range on everyone.

A reduced casting range and being gimped by our most important spells not being able to be cast while moving is no uniqueness, it's a guide to make a class unpopular and bad in real scenarios. What was suggested above would make Evoker the MM Hunter of healers and indeed be something unique.

I would support that change.

[Ielenia]

Hover has 2 charges and lasts 10 seconds. Tiger Lust has 1 charge and lasts 6 seconds.

And after you use both charges, it goes down to one use every 35 seconds, while TL is used once every 30 seconds.

With that said, clearly Blizzard nerfing the spec's healing means that they're seeing something we're not seeing.

That you are not seeing. Within its range, the evoker is very powerful. Too powerful, some might say. Which would basically make that class almost mandatory in fights such as those. The other problem of the evoker is that, outside its very limited range, the class becomes a liability in other fights, such as Halondrus.

[Nyel]

Then why were Preservation's heals the only one that changed? Heal for example healed for 295% spellpower on Tuesday, and it's still healing for 295% now.

It healed for 295% spellpower on Tuesday and it still heals for 295% now - so nothing changed - which was basically what I said or do I not get something here?

It seems like that they just changed auras and modifiers for Evokers, which resulted in a net zero, as I said. Not entirely sure though, there are some conflicting comments in the feedback thread, but most say nothing changed.

[Teriz]

It healed for 295% spellpower on Tuesday and it still heals for 295% now - so nothing changed - which was basically what I said or do I not get something here?

Heal, the Priest spell. It didn’t change.

Meanwhile, Rescue (now Verdant Embrace) went from 430% to 258%. Echo went from 200% to 120%. Dream Breath went from 118% to 111%.

It seems like that they just changed auras and modifiers for Evokers, which resulted in a net zero, as I said. Not entirely sure though, there are some conflicting comments in the feedback thread, but most say nothing changed.

Those changes don’t look like a net zero change.

[Nyel]

Those changes don’t look like a net zero change.

If that's the end result to the changes I'm sorry for conflicting information. If this indeed is true and goes through, Evoker healer is dead on arrival.

[Ikee]

If that's the end result to the changes I'm sorry for conflicting information. If this indeed is true and goes through, Evoker healer is dead on arrival.

Evoker had a 40% reduction aura on the healing spells. Echo going from 200 to 120% is a 40% reduction. They just baked it in.

Effect #1 Apply Aura: Add Modifier - % Modifies Damage/Healing Done
Value: old 40% new 0%

[Teriz]

Evoker had a 40% reduction aura on the healing spells. Echo going from 200 to 120% is a 40% reduction. They just baked it in.

Making Echo 120% while similar spells are hovering at 203% (Flash Heal) and 248% (Healing Surge) with more range is bizarre. Based on this new information, I'm forced to agree with @Nyel that Preservation spells are now vastly below healing spells of other healing specs.

[Scrysis]

I don't think you understood what I'm saying. On Beta turn on friendly nameplates, larger nameplates, turn on Mouseover cast. This is VERY different from traditional healing of using party frames. Your eyes are on the middle of the screen as opposed to rolling back and forth between a grid and enemy action. It's easier to play this way because Evoker is expected to move and Breath or Blossom. I mentioned other games because it works the same way (should've also mentioned Wildstar) where you can move while casting and where most spells are frontal cone telegraphs.

It's not ideal gameplay for some players, but neither is playing Holy Paladin or Disc Priest and that's okay. And being further than 25yds away as healer has never been ideal for your party, you bring them down that way. They're listening to player feedback on action combat, hence why I also mentioned the new 'Action Targeting' under options. This is the closest we'll get to non-Tab targeting gameplay.

Don't take the friendly nameplates as gospel. We used to have the option to see friendly nameplates in raid, and then due to an enterprising addon author trivializing fights, they made it so that friendly nameplates are automatically disabled in instanced settings. I would not be surprised if this will also be the case when it goes live.

[Nyel]

Making Echo 120% while similar spells are hovering at 203% (Flash Heal) and 248% (Healing Surge) with more range is bizarre. Based on this new information, I'm forced to agree with @Nyel that Preservation spells are now vastly below healing spells of other healing specs.

Right now I refuse to think this was intended and I expect it getting fixed in the next build. Honestly, this nerf just makes no sense.

[Ikee]

Right now I refuse to think this was intended and I expect it getting fixed in the next build. Honestly, this nerf just makes no sense.

The healing done prior to the patch is the same as after. The "Perservation Evoker" aura was just reset to 0 and the effect baked into the spells. Tuning hasn't happened properly yet so have to wait and see. Currently there are bigger issues to worry about when it comes to evoker.

[Nyel]

The healing done prior to the patch is the same as after. The "Perservation Evoker" aura was just reset to 0 and the effect baked into the spells. Tuning hasn't happened properly yet so have to wait and see. Currently there are bigger issues to worry about when it comes to evoker.

Yesterday I said it wasn't nerfed and some modifiers just changed for a net zero, then some other guys said the actual coefficients of the healing skills were reduced by 40% and heals therefore nerfed. A lot of conflicting information, what's the truth now?

And I know there are several bigger issues, we talked about most of them already to an extent here.

[Teriz]

Right now I refuse to think this was intended and I expect it getting fixed in the next build. Honestly, this nerf just makes no sense.

Echo costing mana and resource and healing for 40% less than comparable spells that only cost mana at reduced range is pretty inexcusable. You can justify the reduced range if the spec is getting some sort of benefit, but that is an insane deficit to overcome. If it goes live like that, it’s DOA as you said. I simply have to believe they’re just adjusting numbers.

[Nightshade711]

Preservation range increased to 30 yard and hover’s GCD getting lowered it seems.

[Nyel]

Preservation range increased to 30 yard and hover’s GCD getting lowered it seems.

Upcoming Changes to Preservation Evoker - Range Will Be Increased to 30 Yards

This won't help anything when other healers are still at 40 or even 45 yard range. I am pretty certain that in the end Evoker will get its 40 yard range, at least for heal and utility skills, but it will be a fight to get there. We went from 25 to 30, the way to 40 is long, but eventually that's where Evoker will end up.

[Gorsameth]

30 yards is still almost half the area covered by a 40y range healer?

Yeah, just pull the ripcord Blizzard. Its a neat idea but in practice it just doesn't work.

[Rageonit]

I'm surprised they made this change now, before raid testing. Because that's when all the problems will become more apparent. Let's wait for raid testing - I expect more changes then.