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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Poor wording, yes, but you do see my point, don't you? Wrathion has been pretty incompetent as far as we've known him, whereas in a relatively shorter timeframe Sabellian immediately characterized himself as competent and a decent leader.
    I see your point; I do, however, completely disagree. One is a character who people know, and has done something recently. The other... Yeah.

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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    I see your point; I do, however, completely disagree. One is a character who people know, and has done something recently. The other... Yeah.
    True, but seniority could as well trump immediate relevance. Further, it is arguable as to whether Wrathion will be a better character following Sabellian's further development.

    If Sabellian were made an interesting character in DF, it may make him more desirable as a leader. Of course, I presume this whole debate is entirely what Blizzard wants and there'll be a whole thing made about this for a while until they decide to toss it out entirely for some nonsense like having them both lead or having Sabellian inexplicably step away to allow Wrathion to lead and invalidate the whole mess.

    I will also concede to you that the one benefit I do think that Wrathion may truly have over Sabellian is that we've seen his quest from the get-go—he's simply got more character development, so it would be nice to see his whole arc get wrapped up with a nice, neat bow.
    Last edited by Le Conceptuel; 2022-07-18 at 03:51 PM.

  3. #43
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderment2 View Post
    The weaker nations weren't also conquered . Also I literally said the Horde and Allaince COULD not WOULD enforce the champions choice.

    At this point the mortals are in a position of strength over what's left of the dragons.
    Are they? They have some champions, yes, but I honestly doubt the races as a whole would withstand a full-scale assault from the combined might of the dragons. Sure, we're killing dragons left and right as the player character, but I assume we are the exception, not the rule about how powerful the Horde and Alliance armies as a whole are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  4. #44
    Over 9000! Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilela View Post
    I think this simply boils down to a matter of how long it takes to develop content. The reason you see ultimately-meaningless choices is because they take relatively little time to develop, and it doesn't really impact the story roadmap, as more or less stated. The more significant player choice becomes, the more burdensome it would become to develop.

    For example, if players were, in fact, to decide what NPC would become the aspect of the Black Dragonflight, then they'd likely have to set up two different story setups beforehand depending on what players choose, and develop the writing of the game around that, which, in more extreme cases, could have significant consequences for the game world, that would require a lot of off-the-cuff development. Which is ultimately why the Sylvanas-Saurfang choices in the BFA plot wouldn't have changed anything outside of some future easter egg dialogue, even if it wasn't a last-minute change to appease people who didn't want to cooperate with Sylvanas.
    Player choice is just a poor illusion. Even if developers would allow real player choice, at some point the system would just fall over itself and and result in a copout to remove all of them from the equation.


  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Are they? They have some champions, yes, but I honestly doubt the races as a whole would withstand a full-scale assault from the combined might of the dragons. Sure, we're killing dragons left and right as the player character, but I assume we are the exception, not the rule about how powerful the Horde and Alliance armies as a whole are.
    The Dragons are on the verge of extinction. Even if there are only a few people who are powerful enough kill dragons within the Horde and Allaince it would be enough.

    Canonically 25-ish mortals killed an Aspect with minimal assistance, Alex sent drakes to aid in the killing of Malygos she didn't personally empower us (unless Im misremembering).

    Plus the Dragonmaw unaided killed plenty black dragonkin in Twilight Highlands, maybe not full dragons. (Edit: Correction they also killed full dragons).

    But if it takes a handful of people to kill the most powerful dragons and alone Orc clan can make war with the lesser dragons. The combined might of Horde and Allaince could finish off what's left, imo.
    Last edited by Wonderment2; 2022-07-18 at 04:26 PM.

  6. #46
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    Sad, I'd like to get to know Sabellion's character without being pitted against him by another character I like/know more.

    Edit:

    I'm glad they didn't consider Ebonhorn, because that would diminish his personal ties to the Highmountain/Mayla. Those are his people/tribe, that's who he is. That way he can get involved to help the black flight but his priorities are with his family.

    Wrathion is a confrontational and immature character, but in BfA he showed actual growth and change. He also put more on the line personally to help us(Azeroth) like the previous Aspects did against Deathwing. He also helped the aspects wipe out the corrupt Black dragons.

    While Sabellion eventually left to do his own thing, he's in a somewhat similar situation to Genn. He sauntered off when it was convenient for him and stayed conveniently safe until either the problem was gone or they were forcefully involved. And like Genn trying to convince Varian, the remaining dragon leaders have nothing to go off of for Sabellion's current character, other than the fact he neglected his duties as a dragon (for the child he admonished to deal with)--and that he was their enemy as some point. Of course, to be fair, he wasn't strong enough to fight Deathwing, old god corruption is nearly absolute for them once corrupted (and he was), and he did successfully maintain a clutch he protected in the Outlands. So maybe this is more akin to the Nightborne trying to act buddy-buddy with the Nightelves...regardless

    He does have feats that suggest he's a good ruler for his clutch of dragons, but he fails to measure up as an Aspect candidate.

    However Wrathion did nearly destroy the planet via the Legion invasion, so lmao
    Last edited by Rozz; 2022-07-18 at 04:58 PM.
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  7. #47
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    This would be pretty left field for sabellian to pop out of nowhere, so they will probably have some build up to him showing up or we go find him.

    Hopefully there may be tidbits of info explaining that because he was in outland for so long the whispers of the old gods were gone along with their death in BFA.
    Suppose its good we delt with the Arakkoa trying to summon an old god in shadowmoon.

    He always did seem to be more "friendly" then typical black dragons and even stating Rexxar was a friend.

    Ohh i hope that they put a line of text somewhere of them Recognizing the player if they did his quests in outland for killing gruuls sons
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  8. #48
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderment2 View Post
    Rebuilding the flight for millennia?

    Does that track? Hasn't the flight only been facing extinction since relatively recently (like the last few decades)?
    That depends on if by rebuild he meant getting flight members free of old god corruption or not. It’s the same thing with wrathion he wanted us to get rid of all the old dragons who were corrupted so he could rebuild the flight free of it.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  9. #49
    I was worried that they'd forget about Sabellian's existence, glad to see him back. The whole "side with x" angle makes me think that it's just a giant gimmicky bait and neither are actually going to be the new aspect, they'll be unable to come to terms and agree with each other which will prompt the other aspects to pick Ebonhorn as the only suitable leader due to age and experience. Wrathion and Sabellian are just gonna be Chromie's equivalents within the Black Dragonflight.

  10. #50
    I like the idea that crossing through the dark portal severed their connection to the Old Gods and freed them of their corruption.

  11. #51
    I am Murloc! KOUNTERPARTS's Avatar
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    Team Sabellian here.


    Too bad he will most assuredly be killed off by this expansion's end in favor of progressing Wrathion's story as a main character of the game.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post
    yeah it'd be nice if they touched on the Netherwing Dragonflight in DF but... yeah this is Blizzard
    Blizzard don't even remember Anachronos, the future bronze aspect unless Danuser retcons it, is a thing, like they'll remember the netherwing flight lol.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Player choice is just a poor illusion. Even if developers would allow real player choice, at some point the system would just fall over itself and and result in a copout to remove all of them from the equation.

    What’s this picture? Looks neat. Is it from Wow?
    Behold my new creation!


  14. #54
    Over 9000! Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    What’s this picture? Looks neat. Is it from Wow?
    Mass Effect 3 endings, showcasing all the great differences all the player choices made during the trilogy caused.
    Last edited by Lahis; 2022-07-18 at 05:19 PM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    What’s this picture? Looks neat. Is it from Wow?
    Mass Effect 3. Its the various endings, back when it first released. They then released a director's cut update to update things and make them different.

    Anyway I'm happy to see Sabellian and will definitely be siding with him. Always liked him.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephre View Post
    Blizzard don't even remember Anachronos, the future bronze aspect unless Danuser retcons it, is a thing, like they'll remember the netherwing flight lol.
    I wouldn't be surprised if Anachronos shows up in Dragonflight. He was last seen active in BfA as well, as he's the one who allows the Horde PC access to the Vision of Time once more so you can return to AU Draenor to recruit the Mag'har.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  17. #57
    Doesn't Sabellian still have the old god taint? It's been a long time since I did his questline, but IIRC his helping you was more about taking out a mutual enemy than it was any sort of altruism on his part.

  18. #58
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Player choice is just a poor illusion. Even if developers would allow real player choice, at some point the system would just fall over itself and and result in a copout to remove all of them from the equation.

    https://i.imgur.com/uRzKP3I.png
    Player choice is always represented in a diamond formation in most narrative games because a story necessarily has to have a cohesive beginning and end. You can't have the ending be entirely open-ended or have your choice branches fork eternally, because that would require an infinity of outcomes with infinite development time, pretty much an impossible task. So at a certain point in the plot, choices have to start collapsing back down into manageable sequences, usually ending in a smaller or at least finite set of outcomes based on variables a human brain can keep track of. How well any given game does this, of course, is entirely open to interpretation. I don't think it was bad for Mass Effect to boil down its sprawling narrative to three main endings, more than the content of those endings was rather sloppily implemented until the later patch expanded them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrathius View Post
    Doesn't Sabellian still have the old god taint? It's been a long time since I did his questline, but IIRC his helping you was more about taking out a mutual enemy than it was any sort of altruism on his part.
    He should, and you've pretty got the right read on him back in TBC. His cooperation with the PC was definitely a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" type of proposition, and altruism never factored into his aid.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  19. #59
    Didn't the Collector's Edition already spoil who the black dragonflight leader is?

  20. #60
    Over 9000! Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Futhark View Post
    Didn't the Collector's Edition already spoil who the black dragonflight leader is?
    Ysera is dead and unable to be the leader of the Green Flight.

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