New black dragonflight leader [Spoilers]

[Ielenia]

The Dragons are on the verge of extinction. Even if there are only a few people who are powerful enough kill dragons within the Horde and Allaince it would be enough.

I believe it's the opposite. The dragons are still powerful enough to fight back and win, especially if they band together.

Canonically 25-ish mortals killed an Aspect with minimal assistance, Alex sent drakes to aid in the killing of Malygos she didn't personally empower us (unless Im misremembering).

And it was the drakes that killed Malygos, since in the last third of the fight we weren't doing anything, it was the dragons doing all the fight.

Plus the Dragonmaw unaided killed plenty black dragonkin in Twilight Highlands, maybe not full dragons. (Edit: Correction they also killed full dragons).

Didn't they have a powerful artifact during that time that allowed them to control/tame dragons? Don't remember its name, but it was the chain that once held the Dragon Soul, if memory serves.

[Skirdus]

Yes, let me pick *look at smudged notes on the back of my hand* Siberia instead of the guy that literally helped us defeat nzoth.

Oh, you mean the same guy who helped Garrosh escape to Draenor and create the Iron Horde, and the one who's indirectly responsible for Legion as well as all the deaths that followed?

Yeah, think I'll be backing Sabellian on this one personally

[Wonderment2]

1. I believe it's the opposite. The dragons are still powerful enough to fight back and win, especially if they band together.

2. And it was the drakes that killed Malygos, since in the last third of the fight we weren't doing anything, it was the dragons doing all the fight.

3. Didn't they have a powerful artifact during that time that allowed them to control/tame dragons? Don't remember its name, but it was the chain that once held the Dragon Soul, if memory serves.

1. Disagree. The Blues had one of thier last clutches almost killed by elves looking for a fix. They are probably the weakest of the Flights but it highlights how weak dragons currently are.

2. Ok 25 drakes finished him off, I had misremembered that. The champions of Azeroth have killed countless drakes, so it's not like drakes are some uniquely powerful creature. Overall it still true that even when empowered the Dragon Aspects can be killed by a few weaker beings. We're talking 20 to 30 people the Horde and Alliance have many many times more then that.

3. It was the Demons Chain (checked on wowpedia). Even so that's relic probably still in mortal hands. It's unclear how much that played a role in the Dragonmaw success. But still a small group of mortals, with or without , assistance of a relic held their own. Also Garrosh's men managed to kill the Blue Dragons escorting the Focusing Iris. So small groups of mortals who aren't the Champions of Azeroth can kill dragons if probably equipped.

Storywise killing dragons seems perfectly possible for properly equiped and trained mortals. Dragons have been shown since Cataclysm to constantly be in the backfoot and in a greatly diminished state. Seems to suggest, to me, that as of 9.2 Mortals are easily in the winning position.

(Sorry I numbered your post. I'm on a phone breaking up into small quotes is fidderly)

[Nathreim]

Sabellian was involved in Deathwing's plot to bring powerful artifacts from Azeroth to Draenor that Ner'zhul used to open countless portals that ended up tearing Draenor apart and threatened Azeroth with destruction before the Dark Portal was successfully shut down by Khadgar and co. on the Draenor side. So, in that sense, Sabellian was also involved in a plot that nearly destroyed Azeroth, and did successfully destroy Draenor.

To be fair no one knew he was going to open multiple portals and they didn't tell DW what the items were for. Hell even Ner'zul at first was just going to open one but gets the idea to open many later on.

[Aurabolt]

Oh, you mean the same guy who helped Garrosh escape to Draenor and create the Iron Horde, and the one who's indirectly responsible for Legion as well as all the deaths that followed?

That would be Kairozdormu, who was a rogue BRONZE Dragon.

[Ielenia]

1. Disagree. The Blues had one of thier last clutches almost killed by elves looking for a fix. They are probably the weakest of the Flights but it highlights how weak dragons currently are.

Blizzard has pulled more dragons out of nowhere for Dragonflight considering we now have a whole clutch of uncorrupted black dragon eggs that came out of nowhere, so I wouldn't be surprised if more dragons come popping out of the woodwork.

2. Ok 25 drakes finished him off, I had misremembered that. The champions of Azeroth have killed countless drakes, so it's not like drakes are some uniquely powerful creature. Overall it still true that even when empowered the Dragon Aspects can be killed by a few weaker beings. We're talking 20 to 30 people the Horde and Alliance have many many times more then that.

We don't know how powerful those exact drakes were. That aside, every time we, as players, fought dragons, it was always with them alone, or in very small groups. If all dragons of a single dragonflight attacked there would be trouble, and if all dragonflights banded together against the mortal races, I doubt we'd survive.

3. It was the Demons Chain (checked on wowpedia). Even so that's relic probably still in mortal hands. It's unclear how much that played a role in the Dragonmaw success. But still a small group of mortals, with or without , assistance of a relic held their own. Also Garrosh's men managed to kill the Blue Dragons escorting the Focusing Iris. So small groups of mortals who aren't the Champions of Azeroth can kill dragons if probably equipped.

We don't know how the fight has proceeded, or if the blue dragons were ambushed. But 'small skirmishes' aren't really indicators of how full-scale war would go.

[Throren]

That would be Kairozdormu, who was a rogue BRONZE Dragon.

Go read Watcrimes. Garrosh's escape and the formation of the Iron horde to invade Azeroth was all Wrathions idea. He was the mastermind behind all that. He and Kairos were partners and was the one that actually let Garrosh out

[Kiivar86]

That would be Kairozdormu, who was a rogue BRONZE Dragon.

Who was backed by Wrathion. The whole plot was due to Wrathion's initial plans in Pandaria going awry.

[Aucald]

To be fair no one knew he was going to open multiple portals and they didn't tell DW what the items were for. Hell even Ner'zul at first was just going to open one but gets the idea to open many later on.

True, and similarly the same could be said for Wrathion and his abetting of Garrosh and Kairozdormu's doings - he might've helped free Garrosh, but may not have known what the two were actually up to or going to do with the Vision of Time, the same with Sabellian and Ner'zhul's ultimate trajectory. But both could still be said to have helped facilitate those respective villains, regardless.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Wait a second... if a black dragon just had to leave Azeroth in order to sever their connection to the Old Gods (whispers, influence and all)... then I guess Wrathion purging all of the other black dragons on Azeroth, including his man servant, was a kind of a major "oof" in retrospect, yeah?

[Cheezits]

I really doubt players will have any influence in this story.

[Aucald]

Go read Watcrimes. Garrosh's escape and the formation of the Iron horde to invade Azeroth was all Wrathions idea. He was the mastermind behind all that. He and Kairos were partners and was the one that actually let Garrosh out

Wrathion just wanted the Iron Horde to be a threat that the Azerothian Horde and Alliance could unify to contend with and get over their pettier partisan squabbling, it's entirely possible he didn't count on Garrosh going full megalomaniac and intending on conquering Azeroth in its entirety, and he especially didn't count on the Legion co-opting Garrosh and Grommash completely and creating an even worse Fel Horde 2.0 to conquer Azeroth with, much less unleashing AU Gul'dan on Azeroth to accelerate the Legion's final invasion.

Wrathion was stupid to underestimate Garrosh, most definitely, but I don't think the events of WoD were anywhere close to what he actually intended.

[Rozz]

Sabellian was involved in Deathwing's plot to bring powerful artifacts from Azeroth to Draenor that Ner'zhul used to open countless portals that ended up tearing Draenor apart and threatened Azeroth with destruction before the Dark Portal was successfully shut down by Khadgar and co. on the Draenor side. So, in that sense, Sabellian was also involved in a plot that nearly destroyed Azeroth, and did successfully destroy Draenor.

Another thing to consider as well

- - - Updated - - -

Wait a second... if a black dragon just had to leave Azeroth in order to sever their connection to the Old Gods (whispers, influence and all)... then I guess Wrathion purging all of the other black dragons on Azeroth, including his man servant, was a kind of a major "oof" in retrospect, yeah?

I think it was meant to be a classic morally black but good for the cause situation. If Wrathion didn't kill them we would have or the other flights. As long as the old gods survived, no black dragon could be trusted or be 'free' on Azeroth. The fact Wrathion finally made a serum to counteract corruption in BfA is probably part of his guilt towards his harsh actions in the past. MoP was supposed to teach him that he was heading down the same path as his family, corrupted or not. Being arrogant, he decided to up the scale and it totally backfired. He spent WoD soul searching and in BfA he finally returned with more even measures and 'humanity'/empathy.

So yeah, it's meant to be an oof but not one anyone focuses too hard on because we had our own reasons to kill them. Kinda like when a character rebels against their tyrannical family. Although from our pov they're helping us kill the bad guys, from their own pov it leads to moral jeopardy depending on their reasons.

[Wonderment2]

1. Blizzard has pulled more dragons out of nowhere for Dragonflight considering we now have a whole clutch of uncorrupted black dragon eggs that came out of nowhere, so I wouldn't be surprised if more dragons come popping out of the woodwork.


2 We don't know how powerful those exact drakes were. That aside, every time we, as players, fought dragons, it was always with them alone, or in very small groups. If all dragons of a single dragonflight attacked there would be trouble, and if all dragonflights banded together against the mortal races, I doubt we'd survive.


3. We don't know how the fight has proceeded, or if the blue dragons were ambushed. But 'small skirmishes' aren't really indicators of how full-scale war would go.

1. We're discussing established canon. Not possible future suprise dragons. My claim is with current lore in 9.2 mortals would win a total war against dragons.

2. True enough the killed Dragons are often alone. But the mortals drastically out number the dragons. If all the Dragons attack a few targets there are still thousands upon thousands of Mortals who can attack clutches and other dragon strongholds. We have assulted plenty of seats of Dragonic powers, it's doable . The Blues, who, are admittedly the weakest, almost got robbed in their capital by Ethereal and almost lost a clutch to Nightfallen. DKs stormed the Ruby Sanctum. It just doesn't seem like the dragons could meaningful defend and attack with their current numbers.

3. True we don't know how the orcs killed the dragons. I would assume the orcs would of had to ambush them. True smaller skirmishs aren't indicative of a war and the red dragons when controlled were very effective in open war. But that was before the Cataclysm.

[rogueMatthias]

It can't just be me assiming that Sabellian and Wrathion argue about it over the expansion, for the position to ultimately go to Ebonhorn for some "best leaders are those that don't want to lead" mumbo jumbo.

[AngerFork]

It can't just be me assiming that Sabellian and Wrathion argue about it over the expansion, for the position to ultimately go to Ebonhorn for some "best leaders are those that don't want to lead" mumbo jumbo.

Possibly. I'm guessing they will argue about it for most of the expansion. I'm thinking Ebonhorn is going to be the right hand cow/moose/dragon to the winner of this...which I'm currently thinking will be Wrathion with Sabellian becoming a future villain. Would love to see this as a player choice thing though with a number of candidates with 1-2 getting voted out of contention each patch.

[Biomega]

It can't just be me assiming that Sabellian and Wrathion argue about it over the expansion, for the position to ultimately go to Ebonhorn for some "best leaders are those that don't want to lead" mumbo jumbo.

I mean, it's Blizzard. OF COURSE it'll be resolved in the most uninspired, most trope-laden bullshit way possible.

[Nightshade711]

Sabellian > Wrathion

[Syegfryed]

I would vote for deathwing or onyxia before voting for fucking wrathion, but we all know he will "win" and be the leader, this isn't even fun to theorize about it, all leaders are chosen by populariyt in twitter these days

[Ielenia]

1. We're discussing established canon. Not possible future suprise dragons. My claim is with current lore in 9.2 mortals would win a total war against dragons.

2. True enough the killed Dragons are often alone. But the mortals drastically out number the dragons. If all the Dragons attack a few targets there are still thousands upon thousands of Mortals who can attack clutches and other dragon strongholds. We have assulted plenty of seats of Dragonic powers, it's doable . The Blues, who, are admittedly the weakest, almost got robbed in their capital by Ethereal and almost lost a clutch to Nightfallen. DKs stormed the Ruby Sanctum. It just doesn't seem like the dragons could meaningful defend and attack with their current numbers.

3. True we don't know how the orcs killed the dragons. I would assume the orcs would of had to ambush them. True smaller skirmishs aren't indicative of a war and the red dragons when controlled were very effective in open war. But that was before the Cataclysm.

Instead of addressing your points, I'll just bring this up to the original argument: it makes zero sense for all the dragonflights to just step aside and defer to mortals to decide which dragon should lead the black dragonflight.