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  1. #21
    Warchief Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcsaar View Post
    Of coruse its been a very long time since I played a version of WoW that had the old talent trees, but I don't necessarily recall it feeling as useless as a lot of these talents do.
    Just fire up wow classic (or BC or wrath) and you'll see similar "useless" points that you have to invest in to get to perks/skills/abilities that you really wanted.

    It's really no different but that's what the player base wanted so back we go.
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Roanda View Post
    Are you sure they are "useless"? Or PvP is not even on your radar?
    Survival?
    Solo content?
    Utility?
    Based on posts so far, he's trying to play a bear tank while unsubbed without any AOE abilities and without core bear tank stuff like frenzied regen and ironfur.

    Has no idea what he's talking about and is intentionally or unintentionally trolling.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  3. #23
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    The entire nature of most talent trees is that you make a choice about what to include and what to leave behind. It's blindingly obvious that metas will emerge but what's the point of this sort of structure if you can get it all.

    As for 'fun' and 'interesting' it would be great if we all stopped assuming that what I think is 'fun and interesting' is what you think and vice versa.

    I think there's a fairly general loathing of certain aspects of talent trees (percentage increases being one) but people have been asking for them for more than 10 years now. "Be careful what you ask for" has never been more relevant especially when it comes to features and systems that were in the game 15 years ago and that people have grown nostalgic about.

    If you're not subscribed and don't plan to be then it's a mystery why it's of any interest.
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    I would say yes, that you have to "waste" talents in this new talent tree because the vanilla talent tree did not have so many prerequisite talent options.

    The vanilla talent tree basically had "enhancements" for each of the specs of the class all available at the same time in the talent tree.
    You could mix and match whatever enhancements you wanted regardless of which spec you wanted to play, even if it was sub optimal.
    This model gave every ability to the base class and it was the talent tree that determined how effective you were at that particular spec.

    So this is very different than the vanilla style tree, because you have to pick a spec which determines what abilities you have and then what talents you get on top of that. Plus there is now a base class talent tree that also includes base abilities as "talents". It is really a nerf more than anything because you are given fewer tools to play with out of the box and less real choice because those prerequisites are mandatory.

    The old trees most definitely had abilities in the trees, many of which were needed to for the spec. You also needed to dump so many points into a spec in order to get later talents, you couldn't just pick and choose and you pleased.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    That's not what I said. I was comparing the way the trees are currently pathed out, with some paths involving less impactful and 'boring' talents versus a hypothetical tree where every talent was 'fun' or 'interesting' or didn't have set paths in the same way. Of course I think these new trees are harder to balance than the style they're moving away from.
    They obviously aren't harder to balance.

    Old system: Dinged level 11, got zero talent points, gained Swipe.
    New system: Dinged level 11, got 1 talent point, used it to buy Swipe.


    Classes and specs are actually going to have less things now, for the most part. Abilities you used to passively gain are now talent points.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Alcsaar View Post
    They don't let you post unless you have an active account, and I'm not resubbing for that :/
    If you aren't even subbed then why do you care that much? I imagine there are better talents to go for than going the thick hide route.

    The whole point of talent trees is to give you options. The only class I know well enough to comment on that also has its tree revealed is shaman, and I can say it does this pretty well. My only real complaint is forcing you to spec into fire ele in order to get storm ele, and therefore placing storm ele on the opposite side of the tree than all the nature damage increases.

    Well... that and poison cleansing totem. I brought up months ago that poison cleansing totem was making a return as a joke, but I never expected bliz to actually bring it back. I guess it goes to show that making wishes of Bliz is more like a monkey's paw and less like a genies lamp.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    The entire nature of most talent trees is that you make a choice about what to include and what to leave behind. It's blindingly obvious that metas will emerge but what's the point of this sort of structure if you can get it all.

    As for 'fun' and 'interesting' it would be great if we all stopped assuming that what I think is 'fun and interesting' is what you think and vice versa.

    I think there's a fairly general loathing of certain aspects of talent trees (percentage increases being one) but people have been asking for them for more than 10 years now. "Be careful what you ask for" has never been more relevant especially when it comes to features and systems that were in the game 15 years ago and that people have grown nostalgic about.

    If you're not subscribed and don't plan to be then it's a mystery why it's of any interest.
    Fun and interesting don't exist.

    They're lies created to justify arbitrary opinions and falsely present them as fact.

    Red is the most fun color, and blue isn't interesting at all. Ergo anything blue in WoW is bad, unfun and needs to be removed instantly!!!! Blizzard has a big problem on their hands and they NEED to solve it NOW!
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  8. #28
    Brewmaster Pheraz's Avatar
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    For me the best part is that I don't need to click on some silly building to click yet another talent tree or right click on a weapon/shoulder/etc
    Just one thing: talents. One UI.
    Apart from this actually very basic thing that they somehow f*cked up for some reason for several xpacs it is only logical that after X days ice veins will give me the build I need for my casual life
    It won't be as cool as D2 synergy builds sadly, but it is not a biggie for me personally
    Zorn | Vynd | Pheraz | Silwyna | Mondlicht | Eis | Blut | Emerelle - My personal Kaldorei army <3 Plus lots of voidy high elves <3

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    If you aren't even subbed then why do you care that much?
    People unsub for a lot of reasons. Some just play every couple of months each patch, unsub, then come back for the next patch. Some sub for the start of each expansion, unsub, then come back for the next expansion. Some have real life and/or financial stuff come up and have to unsub for a while. Some people don't like the current content or the direction of the game and unsub, but are more than willing to come back if the game improves. There's many more reasons beyond this that someone can unsub... but that doesn't mean they don't intend to come back or want the game to be good or get better. I think in terms of feedback, one place Blizz really fails is that there's no forum section for people who are unsubbed to provide feedback... which is probably a big reason why WoW retention is pretty bad: Blizz doesn't get feedback from former or temporarily unsubbed players who want to come back but don't like the current state of the game.

    Regardless, as some others have mentioned, the new talent system is basically stripping down your current base class/spec, making you spend points to get it all back, and you have a few points to give you either legendary powers or covenant abilities or old talents. On average (at least I'd hope so at the very minimum), your class/spec will end up being pretty much the same as it is now in Shadowlands: you'll have your base kit that you had this expansion, and instead of buying leggos or using power systems you just pick a talent instead. Now, I said 'on average' because even with the preliminary talent trees, there are some specs that actually end up losing stuff compared to live while hoping the 'new' stuff will offset what you lost. However, it's not necessarily apples-to-oranges trade-offs.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
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  10. #30
    This is what people have been asking for since the talent column/row system was implemented.

    So..."you think you do, but you don't" strikes again.

  11. #31
    Warchief Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    The entire nature of most talent trees is that you make a choice about what to include and what to leave behind. It's blindingly obvious that metas will emerge but what's the point of this sort of structure if you can get it all.
    The weird thing is that you do get it "all" since players can create multiple loadouts of the various talent trees.

    Here's talent tree A for ST, B for AoE, C for PvP, D for World Questing/General, etc. Granted there's probably a limit to prevent all the permutations but let's be honest here, 9 out of 10 wow players in DF will just go to wowhead/icy veins/class discords and copy/paste the "meta" layouts anyway.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    Based on posts so far, he's trying to play a bear tank while unsubbed without any AOE abilities and without core bear tank stuff like frenzied regen and ironfur.

    Has no idea what he's talking about and is intentionally or unintentionally trolling.
    Uh what?

    You're absolutely so far off the truth that its crazy.

    This is for a BALANCE druid. I have no intention of ever playing the boring monstrosity that is guardian druid.

    My point is that as a BALANCE druid I'm forced to spec into "useless" bear skills in order to get the survivability talents that are actually GOOD for balance

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    If you aren't even subbed then why do you care that much? I imagine there are better talents to go for than going the thick hide route.

    The whole point of talent trees is to give you options. The only class I know well enough to comment on that also has its tree revealed is shaman, and I can say it does this pretty well. My only real complaint is forcing you to spec into fire ele in order to get storm ele, and therefore placing storm ele on the opposite side of the tree than all the nature damage increases.

    Well... that and poison cleansing totem. I brought up months ago that poison cleansing totem was making a return as a joke, but I never expected bliz to actually bring it back. I guess it goes to show that making wishes of Bliz is more like a monkey's paw and less like a genies lamp.
    Because I unsub when I get bored and then I resub for new content? This isn't that mind blowing of a situation.

    If Shaman is what you know best, then how about this? As Elemental you have to spec into a "choose 1" talent (both pretty bad/niche/mediocre)(Ancestral Wolf Affinity/Primordial Fury) in order to get Master of the Elements and Swelling Maelstrom. It makes zero sense. Why do I have to spec into a pretty bad affinity or a very niche talent that only works when I heal (as an elemental shaman) in order to get two pretty strong damage based talents?
    Last edited by Alcsaar; 2022-07-20 at 06:37 PM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmist View Post
    Talent trees are always like this.

    There are "mandatory" points for the build you want to make (the one that does the most deeps), a bunch of shit you don't really want, but need to take in order to get the mandatory stuff, and maybe a handful of floating points at the end for you to put where you like (and will likely be highly situational at best).

    Anyone expecting the game to suddenly spring to life and for everyone to be rocking massively different builds is living on another planet. There will be builds designated as the best ones, and anybody not conforming will be challenged at every turn until they cave in.
    Not really. The vanilla talents for all specs were available for the class and not separated based on spec. The new talent tree also has a dedicated tree for the base class itself. That is nothing like what we had before. And there were few prerequisite type talents because most talents were just %boosts with the only new abilities being at the bottom of the tree.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    People unsub for a lot of reasons. Some just play every couple of months each patch, unsub, then come back for the next patch. Some sub for the start of each expansion, unsub, then come back for the next expansion. Some have real life and/or financial stuff come up and have to unsub for a while. Some people don't like the current content or the direction of the game and unsub, but are more than willing to come back if the game improves. There's many more reasons beyond this that someone can unsub... but that doesn't mean they don't intend to come back or want the game to be good or get better. I think in terms of feedback, one place Blizz really fails is that there's no forum section for people who are unsubbed to provide feedback... which is probably a big reason why WoW retention is pretty bad: Blizz doesn't get feedback from former or temporarily unsubbed players who want to come back but don't like the current state of the game.

    Regardless, as some others have mentioned, the new talent system is basically stripping down your current base class/spec, making you spend points to get it all back, and you have a few points to give you either legendary powers or covenant abilities or old talents. On average (at least I'd hope so at the very minimum), your class/spec will end up being pretty much the same as it is now in Shadowlands: you'll have your base kit that you had this expansion, and instead of buying leggos or using power systems you just pick a talent instead. Now, I said 'on average' because even with the preliminary talent trees, there are some specs that actually end up losing stuff compared to live while hoping the 'new' stuff will offset what you lost. However, it's not necessarily apples-to-oranges trade-offs.
    None of your subbed nonsense actually matters, and if anything you are proving my point. If someone left their sub since they only play spontaneously then they aren't worth as much as a consistent sub. If they left because of personal or financial reasons, then they still won't be playing if Bliz changes things based off their complaints. Do you actually have any data that justifies your claim that listening to people who aren't even playing the game is going to increase consistent sub numbers and make the game better?

    As far as talent trees go, it seems like most specs are going to change at least a little, and in some cases a lot. I don't think any spec is going to "lose stuff" at all. If you compare it historically, we're actually keeping at least a little bit of the borrowed power, which is far more than any other expansion in the past decade or so. Normally we don't have access to borrowed power from the previous xpac AT ALL, so the new talent trees are in essence taking it back to the BC/Wrath days where the power isn't temporarily borrowed anymore and we get to build on it over a longer timeframe.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    C'mon, look at some of those talent trees.
    You have to talent into basic shit like interrupts and defensive CD's.

    I'm not saying that they're bad, i'm not saying that they don't have no brainers like previous talent trees, but whereas previously you had a very basic baseline toolkit, talenting into such no brainers like a regular AoE spell, Interrupts, healing spells like Chain Heal, or defensive CD's is just questionable design.
    The thing is the new trees are replacing old talents AND what you would get while leveling. Most people here are only viewing the system as it appears at endgame, which I understand to a degree. When prepatch hits we are all gonna lose most of the spells we have and have to regrab them from the tree. But from the perspective of leveling a new character, you will be steadily building out that character's abilities as you grow.
    Last edited by fatgunn; 2022-07-20 at 06:57 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Alcsaar View Post
    Because I unsub when I get bored and then I resub for new content? This isn't that mind blowing of a situation.

    If Shaman is what you know best, then how about this? As Elemental you have to spec into a "choose 1" talent (both pretty bad/niche/mediocre)(Ancestral Wolf Affinity/Primordial Fury) in order to get Master of the Elements and Swelling Maelstrom. It makes zero sense. Why do I have to spec into a pretty bad affinity or a very niche talent that only works when I heal (as an elemental shaman) in order to get two pretty strong damage based talents?
    If you just unsub when you get bored, then you are worth less as a target audience then some of us no-lifers or those of us who want to continue sending monetary support to a company we enjoy.

    Shaman definitely isn't the class I know best anymore, but of what we have access to it is. The build I have been looking at doesn't even spec into master of the elements because shaman damage is so wildly skewed towards fire right now that it doesn't seem to make any sense to push towards nature damage talents. All the top ele shaman logs for raid right now are sitting around 75% fire damage. If we look at M+ instead, we see a big push towards nature damage and taking those talents is probably more beneficial even if you have to pick a talent that isn't super impactful.

    It sounds like you want to pick only things that you personally find useful and not have to make any hard decisions on trade-offs or more lackluster talents. I understand this desire, but sometimes we need to do things we don't enjoy in life. My own example for instance of having to use 6 talent points in mostly useless places to get to storm elemental for a M+ build is a bit more shitty, especially because fire and storm elemental are their own talents now and you will never use fire elemental if you are in a storm elemental spec. We also have 5-6 months until any of this is settled, and as we have already seen the hunter tree getting serious overhauls I don't think any of this is worth crying about.

    edit: personally I'd rather see fire/storm elemental as a "pick one" talent, because which elemental you use is going to be heavily influenced by the rest of your build, but in the current setup anyone who picks storm elemental gets screwed out of 6 points.
    Last edited by Goatfish; 2022-07-20 at 07:07 PM.

  17. #37
    When Blizzard runs out of ideas for talents they simply change a core ability just to make a talent spot that undoes that change. For example if they need a 2 point talent slot they will increase the cooldown of Blink from 15 seconds to 25 seconds and add a talent that reduces the cooldown of Blink by 1/2 5seconds 2/2 10seconds.

  18. #38
    IMO most "talents" (or skills) at the upper levels of the tree should be baseline, e.g. druid's rake, thrash, swipe, etc. It doesnt make sense they are there, they should be baseline skills. And then the tree should follow as the 4th row onwards (killer instinct, ironfur, etc).

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Alcsaar View Post
    I've been playing around with the new talent trees for DF, and I can't help but feel like a lot of the time talents feel unimpactful or even entirely useless in order to get the talents below them.
    That was the entire justification for ditching the original talent system for the one currently on live. I don't know why people are shocked that going back to a similar system as the original brings back original problems like filler talents.

    This looks like a slightly better system than the original, but it's not going to solve every problem that throwing buckets of talent points at people has.
    “Nostalgia was like a disease, one that crept in and stole the colour from the world and the time you lived in. Made for bitter people. Dangerous people, when they wanted back what never was.” -- Steven Erikson, The Crippled God

  20. #40
    Pit Lord bloodwulf's Avatar
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    I personally love the talent trees. So far the two i have delved the most in are full of interesting choices. Evoker and Shaman are trees that packed with things that i want, and having to choose and make sacrifices is actually really interesting. The shaman class tree for example is loaded with utility, and i have made 3 builds already that i could use for various things happily.
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