[Movie] Dungeon & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves

[Asrialol]

I don't know anything about DnD myself, so I assume I'll find it somewhat enjoyable. At least entertaining.

The issue with these kind of projects is that its nigh impossible to please both hardcore fans and those oblivious to the source material.

[Syegfryed]

You have been bringing the rules into it the entire time. You've just been wrong about the rules. You keep on saying what Tieflings are supposed to look like...and you keep on getting proven wrong...so you then attempt to move the goal posts to something else.

i haven't, thats why you are bullshiting it, i never, once, said they should "look like in the rules says so"" if you feel like, you can try to find it, spoilers, i didn't.

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I will continue to laugh at your absurdity because the depiction used for tiefling is pretty much bang on point with content that predates 5e.

ok buddy, and i will continue saying its a bad depiction and i think they should have gone with a more devilish version. Which, exists prior 5e.

It was pretty obvious to anyone who played prior to 5e that the character was a tiefling.

yeah, 100% bs

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If it were really as popular as you'd say, then there wouldn't be so many people arguing against your opinion.

Ah yes, just throw some fallacy now and then, you say "many people" but i count just three randons, who are just arguing for the sake of argue.

You cross a line when you infer that everyone else must be wrong about the 'most popular' version of the race. It has nothing to do with what you prefer, everything to do with how you're explaining your why.

If all you said is you preferred to have a Red Tiefling because that's how 5e portrays them, then that's fine. That you inferred that 5e is the most popular version and everyone else is wrong, with nothing to actually back that up, is just a bunch of fluff and nonsense. It's these kind of ridiculous comments that will get people all up in your business. I can't imagine you've been here this long and don't understand how your words stir up the hornet's nest. 7 years, my dude.

My guy, you are basically trying to say there is no depiction of tiefling that is popular, or more popular than another, basically implying all of then are the same. Just stop, you are not going to convince a soul.

[eschatological]

Sure thing buddy

but i still think they should have gone with the red tiefling as it is the basic/most well know. I think going to the trouble of doing a tiefling to not make it purple and red, especially in a party full of humans is a bad move.

It's literally the "most well known" to those who've picked up the hobby in the last 5 years. There's literally been 50 years of this game where a red tiefling would be wholly out of the norm. There's been books depicting tieflings as humans with horns which have lasted longer as current editions than 5e has, and are obviously much older than 5e depictions.

The movie is already deviating from 5e by having a druid shapeshift into an owlbear - why can't you accept that there's 50 years of history of this game which might overwhelm your experience of the last 5-8 years of 5e?

[Syegfryed]

It's literally the "most well known" to those who've picked up the hobby in the last 5 years. There's literally been 50 years of this game where a red tiefling would be wholly out of the norm. There's been books depicting tieflings as humans with horns which have lasted longer as current editions than 5e has, and are obviously much older than 5e depictions.

The movie is already deviating from 5e by having a druid shapeshift into an owlbear - why can't you accept that there's 50 years of history of this game which might overwhelm your experience of the last 5-8 years of 5e?

You keep implying tieflings with red skin is something that only happened in 5e, despite this being a tiefling of 4e:


or this being a 2e(or 3e im not finding the source)

[Triceron]

My guy, you are basically trying to say there is no depiction of tiefling that is popular, or more popular than another, basically implying all of then are the same. Just stop, you are not going to convince a soul.

Er, no. I clearly have stated that there are popular depictions of Tieflings, and gave evidence of that. My point is that you can't just take any one source and say 'This is most popular' just on the basis of your personal observation, considering how wide and vast the recognition of D&D expands to.

One of the most well recognized Tieflings in popular culture isn't even red.

You can say that red may be the most common color for them, but it doesn't make it the most popular. Popularity is a very different metric from common depictions. Like I said earlier, if asked what the most popular depiction of a Demogorgon is, it would not be the classic or current D&D monster, but of the Stranger Things creature instead.

[eschatological]

You keep implying tieflings with red skin is something that only happened in 5e, despite this being a tiefling of 4e:

As someone has already pointed out to you, 4e was a major re-shuffle of D&D lore that had existed for decades. 5e is a compromise between 4e and what came before. I can't see the image you linked, so I have no idea if the depiction you linked was "standard" but 4e by itself is basically non-standard on its own. Most people I know who've been playing 20+ years, after trying 4e, went back to 3.5e or Pathfinder.

And Planescape was an alternate setting which A) isn't relevant to the setting of this movie, which takes place on Faerun, B) had wildly varied types of tieflings, and C) the red one wasn't the norm, which is what I said. I said there were *no* red tieflings before recent history, just that they were far from the norm. It also hasn't been published since 2e afaik.

[Syegfryed]

Er, no. I clearly have stated that there are popular depictions of Tieflings, and gave evidence of that.

"your evidence" is one character from critical role.

yet, when i search tiefling, the most common tiefling i find is red

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As someone has already pointed out to you, 4e was a major re-shuffle of D&D lore that had existed for decades. 5e is a compromise between 4e and what came before. I can't see the image you linked, so I have no idea if the depiction you linked was "standard" but 4e by itself is basically non-standard on its own. Most people I know who've been playing 20+ years, after trying 4e, went back to 3.5e or Pathfinder.

And Planescape was an alternate setting which A) isn't relevant to the setting of this movie, which takes place on Faerun, B) had wildly varied types of tieflings, and C) the red one wasn't the norm, which is what I said. I said there were *no* red tieflings before recent history, just that they were far from the norm. It also hasn't been published since 2e afaik.

basically, those doesn't matter, what matter is what you said, got it.

Let alone how the older tiefling was basically a satyr, which she doesn't have.

[eschatological]

All I said was that it wasn't the norm, not that it didn't matter.

[Shadowferal]

[draynay]

They should make a movie or something, that way we'd for sure know what tieflings look like.

[Triceron]

"your evidence" is one character from critical role.

yet, when i search tiefling, the most common tiefling i find is red

Sure.

And if you google 'Monk WoW' the most common image that pops up is the Pandaren Monk.

I wouldn't by any means equate that google search as Pandarens being the most popular race for the Monk. We have data that tells us otherwise, with Human and Blood Ef Monks having 4x more picks than Pandaren of either faction.

Common depictions =/= popularity.

[Rocksteady 87]

Here's a little history lesson for you.

In AD&D 2nd Edition, TSR introduced Planescape which in turn introduced the Tiefling. They were the "bastards of the planes," demihumans with heavily diluted and muddied bloodlines from all across the planes. They were not exclusively of fiendish descent, though it was heavily inferred that most of them were simply due to several types of fiends that enjoyed seducing mortals. In fact, it was implied that most of them had multiple different bloodlines; they were literally the mutts of the multiverse. They could have a bit of fiend, a hint of fey, a touch of elemental, and maybe a dose of celestial somewhere in their ancestral history all at once.

Later, they introduced the Aasimar and Genasi (because TSR really loved their bloat), at which point they more solidly considered Tieflings to be of fiendish descent. It was never exclusively stated that way, but heavily implied.

It was during this time that they also described what Tieflings looked like, and it varied massively. There was a huge table of options they could pick from or create their own, several of which were just superfluous notes like "a shadow of knife's edge across their eyes" or "the scent of freshly baked bread hanging in the air around them." Other options included different colored skin, unusual eyes, weird ears (elven, batwings, rat-like), various types of tails, vestigal wings, weird legs or arms, all kinds of horns, patches of feathers or scales, missing or twisted body parts (one notable NPC, Sly Nye, had no nose, pale white skin, skeletal fingers, and funky hair as his traits), and so on and so forth.

Then Wizards of the Coast entered the picture and pretty much dumbed down all of Planescape in the worst way with their introduction of D&D 3e. It was here that Tieflings exclusively became descendants of fiends and fiends alone. Gone were most of their quirky physical (or metaphysical in some cases) features, with them instead always having some kind of fiendish trait, usually horns, unusual skin colors, and funky eyes. But at least they were still "planetouched" for the most part.

Then came D&D 4e which was just an abomination all around. Here, Tieflings became a completely different and wholly unrelated race to those that beared the name before. Now they were all cursed descendants of demon worshippers. So they were Tieflings in name only at this point, and had no actual relationship with the "true" Tieflings that came before. Worse still, they were all the same for the most part, even though Dragon magazine tried to offer up some variations in their (effectively) third-party material. But this is where the boring red-skinned, horned-with-dumb-looking-forehead, and tailed archetype came from.

Finally, D&D 5e came along and reversed that a bit, but still kept them as descendants of fiends rather than cursed children of cultists. Due to their new mechanics for subraces, it was a lot easier to start fitting in new variants, but it was all due to their relationship with one fiendish lord or another because... well, just because they completely forgot what it was that made Tieflings awesome in the first place and instead chose to triple down on the "ooh, half demons" idea (even though that's more of what a Cambion is, but who cares about that, amirite).

Anyone who claims otherwise about them and their portrayal over the years are simply wrong. That is their evolution over the course of the game since they were first introduced. Each edition pretty much dumbed them down more and more, though 5e reverted that process a little... but not nearly enough.

As for the movie, there's actually two options. 1.) She is indeed a Tiefling, but one that is closer to the 2e version than the 5e version of the race. Or 2.) her horns and unusual eyes have nothing to do with her race. They could be a blessing from her god, a consequence of botched wild shaping (there's been a number of prestige classes and subclasses that cause that), or other similar reasons.

If they are basing the movie more on 5e than D&D in general, then I'd wager #2 is the actual reason for them unless someone behind the scenes have officially labeled her as a Tiefling. If they are just going with D&D in general, #1 is far more likely.

[VMSmith]

Here's a little history lesson for you.

...

This was a fascinating post, thank you.

Along the lines of the ever-changing appearance of things in D&D, I highly recommend the book, Dungeons & Dragons Art & Arcana: A Visual History. This is a hefty book that contains a vast number of illustrations from the history of D&D, talking about how the visual appearance of the game has been developed over the decades.

If you're a fan of D&D, you would love this book.

[eschatological]

BTW, has anything official called the character a tiefling? Or is this just an assumption from the online discourse?

[Corvus]

BTW, has anything official called the character a tiefling? Or is this just an assumption from the online discourse?

There was a twitter put out with the official names and classes of the characters and they said she was a tiefling in it.

[Syegfryed]

Sure.

And if you google 'Monk WoW' the most common image that pops up is the Pandaren Monk.

I wouldn't by any means equate that google search as Pandarens being the most popular race for the Monk. We have data that tells us otherwise, with Human and Blood Ef Monks having 4x more picks than Pandaren of either faction.

Common depictions =/= popularity.

Nice double standard, too bad the images we find are people drawing/making commission on their characters

[Triceron]

Nice double standard, too bad the images we find are people drawing/making commission on their characters

What do commissions have to do with anything? WoW census and armory data that tells us Humans and BE are the highest picked Monk races. Why would you even consider fanart a metric of popularity? lol

There is no reliable metric to gauge the popularity of any given Tiefling skin color. All we can say is that the most common depiction is red skin. Red skin being popular is not defined by what the official art portrays or how often it's portrayed in that way.

[Shadowferal]

This was a fascinating post, thank you.

Along the lines of the ever-changing appearance of things in D&D, I highly recommend the book, Dungeons & Dragons Art & Arcana: A Visual History. This is a hefty book that contains a vast number of illustrations from the history of D&D, talking about how the visual appearance of the game has been developed over the decades.

If you're a fan of D&D, you would love this book.

*nods* That old stuff has immense charm.
I'd add the Dragon Archive for a more complete collection, Dragon Magazine, issues 1-250 in cds.

[Hotmail]

So, the first movie with the infamous purple lipstick baddie was quite dreadful. But the second movie, Wrath of the Dragon God, I found quite enjoyable and a lot more faithful to the source material (especially if you look at deleted scenes where staples like the Vorpal Blade were given a lot more attention).

This looks... okay. Not a fan of the trailer's light-hearted tone, but that might just be marketing BS. Besides, there's mimics and spell interactions in this one, so it can't be that bad. I'm almost sold.

[Kathandira]

So, the first movie with the infamous purple lipstick baddie was quite dreadful. But the second movie, Wrath of the Dragon God, I found quite enjoyable and a lot more faithful to the source material (especially if you look at deleted scenes where staples like the Vorpal Blade were given a lot more attention).

This looks... okay. Not a fan of the trailer's light-hearted tone, but that might just be marketing BS. Besides, there's mimics and spell interactions in this one, so it can't be that bad. I'm almost sold.

I expect it to be Marvel Entertainment levels of comedy. Plenty of serious moments, and heated battles, with comedy in between to break up the tension.

Basically, a D&D Campaign. lol