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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Sepulcher isnt 100% to blame, but why reclear when 80% of my raid group already having 4 set from other sources, with the majority at something like 272-278 mix, for some trinket that doesnt matter since we only do AoTC?
    It's basically summing up all my previous posts. The people affected are the "middle-men" and not the top tier raiders. That's why i say that Mythic raid rewards are mostly fine but should be slightly better due to the organizational hurdles; the real issue is that everything in between about raiding is basically DoA except for the very start.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  2. #282
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    Honestly I think the whole endgame hamster wheel is a mess.
    If M+ rewards are nerfed, top key pushers (which I am not) will be required to raid Mythic to compete.
    If rewards stay as they are, normal/heroic are redundant in terms of gearing.
    If item levels scale in the content they were rewarded (like PvP) gear, we’ll all be carrying 3 sets of gear again (or more).
    PvP has a separate reward track. Why not M+?

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    PvP has a separate reward track. Why not M+?
    Because both are PVE. A lure of having better gear from either m+ or mythic is that all the other content gets a bit easier with every piece. Seperating them like this is a really bad idea that will leave a bad taste in people that just want to play the game.

    If you see value in doing m+'s to help you gain a piece to help with mythic raiding, that is great, it means theres more to do and you can show those dirty keypushers how awesome you are. M+ is not some ugly little stepchild that needs to be kept seperate from the shiny elitist raiders, its a sibling that gets to be treated equally because down at their heart they are exactly the same things with slightly different goals. One is to clear some challenging content with a small group while the other is to clear challenging content with a big group.

    This whole thread is elitist and dumb and needs to die. Let people have their fun ffs. The fun of others does not impact you.

  4. #284
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by talmir View Post
    Because both are PVE. A lure of having better gear from either m+ or mythic is that all the other content gets a bit easier with every piece. Seperating them like this is a really bad idea that will leave a bad taste in people that just want to play the game.

    If you see value in doing m+'s to help you gain a piece to help with mythic raiding, that is great, it means theres more to do and you can show those dirty keypushers how awesome you are. M+ is not some ugly little stepchild that needs to be kept seperate from the shiny elitist raiders, its a sibling that gets to be treated equally because down at their heart they are exactly the same things with slightly different goals. One is to clear some challenging content with a small group while the other is to clear challenging content with a big group.

    This whole thread is elitist and dumb and needs to die. Let people have their fun ffs. The fun of others does not impact you.
    But people don't get to have their fun. People who prefer to raid but cannot handle Mythic raiding see their prefered playstyles destroyed because a different playstyle is far more rewarding for far less effort. It was problematic before and Creation Catalyst completely broke the reward tracks.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by talmir View Post
    This whole thread is elitist and dumb and needs to die. Let people have their fun ffs. The fun of others does not impact you.
    But no one is saying this - it seems you're the one hurt by this discussion and not "us". The only thing we're saying is that if we try to compare apples to apples in terms of relative difficulty and commitment/effort required (so basically M+ up to 15 VS raids up to HC) M+ is an easy win in terms of rewards. And by this i mean it's a way more efficient way to gear up your character.

    So, the raid progression at lower levels needs a revamp. The highest levels are just fine as they are. One can discuss by having a separate reward tracks for M+, and i think it can make sense especially past 15s since there's a great degree of challenge to overcome when you start pushing high keys yet players don't get anything as a reward which i think they deserve.

    I think gear progression in terms of player power is really well done in M+ - you reach a cap at a decent difficulty point and then it's up to player skill. Raids imho should become more like this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    I thought raiders raid for the sake of it and not for petty things like gear. Besides, what difference does it make to anyone if the other guy has good gear unless they don't want that because they want to bully them in BGs. No other explanation really.
    Nice try. Never been like this, especially before M+. Agree on the second part though, people should care less about what others have in a videogame (especially sicne you can buy all of that with real money for the most part).
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    It's basically summing up all my previous posts. The people affected are the "middle-men" and not the top tier raiders. That's why i say that Mythic raid rewards are mostly fine but should be slightly better due to the organizational hurdles; the real issue is that everything in between about raiding is basically DoA except for the very start.
    But you have to be really dense to not understand how its a good thing in the end though.

    I would have quit the game if the people i play with couldnt be carried by gear (ex-gf, gf of another raider, the 50 year old guy, someone that doesnt wanna buy a PC so 10 FPS for the next 5 months which he said he would buy (He did buy xD)) etc etc.

    The "middle-men" have it very very nicely, the problem is if you define it as 1 category, when its 1000 categories.

    I mean, i raid averagely 15-30 hours in a span of 3 months (each tier is different, and M+ covers the gear problems when we dont raid cause of missing raiders so you end up raiding less) and i get my AOTC for the last 7 years or so, since we do 3-4 hours/week, averagely 10-15 hours per month, its all dandy.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    But you have to be really dense to not understand how its a good thing in the end though.

    I would have quit the game if the people i play with couldnt be carried by gear (ex-gf, gf of another raider, the 50 year old guy, someone that doesnt wanna buy a PC so 10 FPS for the next 5 months which he said he would buy (He did buy xD)) etc etc.

    The "middle-men" have it very very nicely, the problem is if you define it as 1 category, when its 1000 categories.

    I mean, i raid averagely 15-30 hours in a span of 3 months (each tier is different, and M+ covers the gear problems when we dont raid cause of missing raiders so you end up raiding less) and i get my AOTC for the last 7 years or so, since we do 3-4 hours/week, averagely 10-15 hours per month, its all dandy.
    Right now i'm having an hard time understanding if we agree or disagree. So far i am agreeing with your points - i don't get this last post specifically.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    But people don't get to have their fun. People who prefer to raid but cannot handle Mythic raiding see their prefered playstyles destroyed because a different playstyle is far more rewarding for far less effort. It was problematic before and Creation Catalyst completely broke the reward tracks.
    They can have their fun by clearing it at their own pace, should they feel amazing for taking 4 months to clear a heroic raid? Mythic plus has completely killed my incentive to raid but that was coming along anyway due to the blocks of time required and the farming required on top of that also. If the creation catalyst or a similar system is removed then i think at this point it would hurt the player numbers more then help them since people have started to shift over, if raiding was better people would have been more inclined to do it.

    Raiding has been so exclusionary for so long the snake is now seen to be eating itself and people who raid with toxic attitudes are atleast somewhat to blame for its downfall honestly, not all of it but a good portion of it. Plus 45 min chunks is easier to sustain then 3 hour chunks when you have a busy life.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Right now i'm having an hard time understanding if we agree or disagree. So far i am agreeing with your points - i don't get this last post specifically.
    Was at work and wanted a quick response rather than explaining ;p

    Yes i agree wtih you, but the term "middle-men" is a bit wrong cause with the way you seem to use it, you put everyone in the same category, when its not true, my point is that the way the game is, is very rewarding if you are decent, and you can keep up with the rest after a couple of weeks, but even if you arent and you go slower, the gear comes either way if you try a bit.

    Therefor players must be really dense to not understand this, which they are, so they complain non-stop.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Was at work and wanted a quick response rather than explaining ;p

    Yes i agree wtih you, but the term "middle-men" is a bit wrong cause with the way you seem to use it, you put everyone in the same category, when its not true, my point is that the way the game is, is very rewarding if you are decent, and you can keep up with the rest after a couple of weeks, but even if you arent and you go slower, the gear comes either way if you try a bit.

    Therefor players must be really dense to not understand this, which they are, so they complain non-stop.
    I put them all in the same category only from the gameplay content/rewards structure, which is the same for everyone. It's true what you say, but independently from it, it's pretty clear how M+ being clearly more efficient and generally better for progressing your character makes all raid difficulties kind of obsolete.

    It's not that you don't get anything from raiding, but it pales in comparison from what you can get from M+.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    I put them all in the same category only from the gameplay content/rewards structure, which is the same for everyone. It's true what you say, but independently from it, it's pretty clear how M+ being clearly more efficient and generally better for progressing your character makes all raid difficulties kind of obsolete.

    It's not that you don't get anything from raiding, but it pales in comparison from what you can get from M+.
    Its just the speed at which you get the items.

    A Decent Mythic Raider, in lets use 9.2 item levels, would be something like 275 by the second week (Of Mythic raiding) so 3rd week averagely?

    The average Heroic Raider with the SL system required 3-4 more weeks to achieve that cause of Valor Cap, compared to previous expansions where +15 was giving higher item level, assuming you do multiple M+ and the vault doesnt fuck you over.

    Overall its all okay, the reason to raid is usually weapons/trinkets for the last few years, always has been, and i totally approve if Raid Weapons have special abilities or the trinkets are 5% stronger from the M+ ones.

    Just disable the bonus for PvP if it causes issues.
    Last edited by potis; 2022-08-04 at 08:42 AM.

  12. #292
    Pit Lord Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    But people don't get to have their fun. People who prefer to raid but cannot handle Mythic raiding see their prefered playstyles destroyed because a different playstyle is far more rewarding for far less effort. It was problematic before and Creation Catalyst completely broke the reward tracks.
    Maybe you should stop playing for gear and start playing for kills, achievements, transmogs and mounts? Gear gets resetted every season anyways lol. And heroic and normal isn't supposed to be content that takes you 6 months to clear it, that's what mythic is for. Also - the Creation Catalyst is the best thing they invented this Expansion and I surely hope it stays. Same goes for the way valor and m+ upgrades are handled this season. Finally my main can actually use her valor this time!

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Maybe you should stop playing for gear and start playing for kills, achievements, transmogs and mounts? Gear gets resetted every season anyways lol.
    Maybe you shouldn't tell other people how (and for what reasons) to play the game though. Personally, I couldn't care less about stuff like transmogs, achievements and mounts.

  14. #294
    Clearing 20man mythic raiding early is extremely easy too, for an individual player who is not tasked with being the guild/raid leader and who is not responsible for recruitment.

    People have the delusion doing 5man mythic+ is somehow so easy but in reality it's harder - on an individual basis - than having a great 20man guild leader recruiting you.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  15. #295
    KSM will be much harder this patch if they don't tune the Kara dungeons properly. Esp Keystone hero.

  16. #296
    Immortal Evolixe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hightotemz View Post
    KSM will be much harder this patch if they don't tune the Kara dungeons properly. Esp Keystone hero.
    Not at all. The timers are super easy.
    Once people figure it out it wont be a problem at all. If anything this will be the free-est season yet.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
    Not at all. The timers are super easy.
    Once people figure it out it wont be a problem at all. If anything this will be the free-est season yet.
    Yeah, considering (a) most of the stuff people complain about is avoidable/interruptable, and (b) Blizz is still gonna nerf the shit out of Kara/GD over the next few weeks. All the other dungeons are already pretty easy.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by neescher View Post
    Yeah, considering (a) most of the stuff people complain about is avoidable/interruptable, and (b) Blizz is still gonna nerf the shit out of Kara/GD over the next few weeks. All the other dungeons are already pretty easy.
    There are some issues. Shade is hitting a bit to hard if rng lines up badly with flame wreath and another spell going off at the same time on higher keys. You can argue that is controllable but it's a lot to coordinate. Chess event is also far to tanky for what it is.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    There are some issues. Shade is hitting a bit to hard if rng lines up badly with flame wreath and another spell going off at the same time on higher keys. You can argue that is controllable but it's a lot to coordinate. Chess event is also far to tanky for what it is.
    There are definitely issues, and compared to other dungeons Kara is quite a bit harder. But there are many things some people complain about, that don't need to be nerfed because it's completely avoidable or interruptable. It's probably not a big help to have inspired as the first week's modifier. Once people get to know the dangerous casts, they'll know how to pull/cc around inspired too.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by neescher View Post
    There are definitely issues, and compared to other dungeons Kara is quite a bit harder. But there are many things some people complain about, that don't need to be nerfed because it's completely avoidable or interruptable. It's probably not a big help to have inspired as the first week's modifier. Once people get to know the dangerous casts, they'll know how to pull/cc around inspired too.
    Pretty much. Outside of shade and the learning curve of people realizing mores is not a fight you can ignore cc on it is mostly good. Though I've not done grimrail yet and I heard the camera issues haven't been fixed.

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