KSM is too easy.

[Vakna]

I say the opposite, I think that Mythic raid should give zero gear at all and only cosmetics. The best ilvl gear in the game should be obtainable by everyone who puts in at least some effort - heroic raid, +15's etc.. Gear power should be relatively quick to max out on a character if you are playing it properly, say 1 month from the start of a patch your character should be absolutely maxed in any content you choose to do, and everything after that should only be about hunting the achievements, the cosmetics or simply for prestige of having accomplished a victory.

Many people in this game are forced to take part in areas they otherwise dislike just to fully enjoy the area of the game they do like, myself included. For example, having to raid for trinkets and tier etc in order to be competitive in M+. That kind of thing should not exist at all.

Any serious high end gamer will tell you that the gear is irrelevant, they do what they do for the fun of being the best, not because it gives you big number loot. The people who do make that argument are the insecure ones who need that +5 ilvls to feel like they are good.

[OokOok]

This point of view is one of the stupidest ones still kicking around today about WoW.

Do you feel this way when someone wins a car comparable to yours? Is your car devalued because someone else has one? How about if someone’s family helps them buy a house of the same value as yours? Are you insulted if someone has the same clothes, the same shoes? Someone else having the same book, or maybe winning a lottery to go the same musical as you, is insulting?

Who gives a flying fuck if someone else you don’t know, or will ever know (in real life, or in game), gets something that you have? How does that diminish the work you put in for what you have? Does that somehow magically erase the time you spent working for it? Do you genuinely believe anyone , aside from your in-game friends, actually gives a shit what gear you have? You’re not special, or cool, or an icon, a hero, a role model.

Stop worrying about what other people do or get in-game.

No but I do feel this way when someone on welfare has a better car than me, it just proves how broken the system is when hardworking tax paying people like raiders.... get shit on by the system and lazy sacks of shit who just leech off society and expect free hand outs benefit from it the most.

[Jotaux]

I'd rather they just give me full bis, idgaf what they give everyone else.

[Nzx]

M+ really shouldn't be giving out mythic raiding ilvl gear.

Mythic raiding is the hardest content this game has to offer, not just from a gameplay perspective, but also from the amount of time an effort it takes to manage a functioning roster.

To give out welfare gear to +15 casuals is disrespectful to the people who actually put in the time to work for their gear.

The most thinly veiled bait I've seen on this forum in a while, and that's saying something for a forum consisting almost entirely of bait threads.

[lordjust]

This point of view is one of the stupidest ones still kicking around today about WoW.

Do you feel this way when someone wins a car comparable to yours? Is your car devalued because someone else has one? How about if someone’s family helps them buy a house of the same value as yours? Are you insulted if someone has the same clothes, the same shoes? Someone else having the same book, or maybe winning a lottery to go the same musical as you, is insulting?

Who gives a flying fuck if someone else you don’t know, or will ever know (in real life, or in game), gets something that you have? How does that diminish the work you put in for what you have? Does that somehow magically erase the time you spent working for it? Do you genuinely believe anyone , aside from your in-game friends, actually gives a shit what gear you have? You’re not special, or cool, or an icon, a hero, a role model.

Stop worrying about what other people do or get in-game.

Bad take in my opinion because they don't win the same gear but get rewarded the same gear. It's not someone wins the same car as you but goes to the same dealer as you but pays only 3/4 of the price you paid. It's about doing less or easier work but getting the same reward which by definition devalues your work.

If ilvl is the measurement of difficulty as it is for now in WoW, then content that rewards the same ilvl gear should be the same in difficulty which isn't the case for m+. We were able to clear m+15 before we were able to clear heroic and we had a bunch of people who didn't need any gear from heroic or even mythic apart from the last 3 bosses. M+ is by far the easiest and most efficient way to get high ilvl gear which removes the incentive to do mythic or even heroic raids for people who are only there for ilvl. We already had the same problem in sanctum that half of our raid stopped raiding because they got equal or better gear from m+ so there was no incentive for them to keep raiding heroic. Our roster now and back in sanctum was big enough to keep raiding but in nathria our guild died because of it because we were left with only 7 people or so that wanted to raid, despite not needing any gear from it.

There are different routes they can take to make it fairer. Increase the threshold of when you get rewarded the higest ilvl. Make it +20 instead of +15 or even +25. CE raiders are clearing even higher keys an I was able to clear a +21 despite being a bad player in general and not playing much m+. +20 is more in line in difficulty than +15 if they want to keep the highest ilvl reward in mythic raids.

Keep +15 for higest ilvl, reward higest ilvl in heroic and make mythic reward only transmog, maybe pets, a mount and a title. +15 are more in line with heroic raids and instead of even higher ilvl rewards in mythic raids, create other incentives. It works for other games and would at the same time solve the ilvl bloat over the course of an expansion, therfore reducing the need to apply a stat squish every few expansions.

[Lolites]

M+ really shouldn't be giving out mythic raiding ilvl gear.

Mythic raiding is the hardest content this game has to offer, not just from a gameplay perspective, but also from the amount of time an effort it takes to manage a functioning roster.

To give out welfare gear to +15 casuals is disrespectful to the people who actually put in the time to work for their gear.

post link to your char on armory on which you have both KSM and mythic raid cleared or GTFO, bcs somehow i seldom hear this bullshit from mythic raiders, its usualy yelled by people who are either lucky to clear LFR or get boosted throught higher tiers...

is KSM far easier than mythic raiding? yes, that why rewards are WORSE, you cant get mythic raid level gear from M+ you get ONE item per week from vault, so if you are extremely lucky it takes you 16 weeks to gear fully in mythic gear...
mythic raider in that time gets same amount from vault PLUS drops from raid... so with average of 1 item per raid week he will have twice the amount of gear, so wit hthe same "amount" of luck he will be fully geared LONG before m+ only player...

[arkanon]

pretty much this Mythic raid = one style of gear, M+ another, crafting (without requiring group content) another, and solo/WQ another all being paths to max ilvl. Regarding speed to gear raiding, 5mans, crafting, solo/WQ. That would be 4 viable paths to max ilvl gear based on what a person enjoys in the game, which is what matters more than the OPs (and others like them) ego.

Ultimately, this is what it's all about though yeah? People wanting BIS gear from doing WQ.

- - - Updated - - -

I say the opposite, I think that Mythic raid should give zero gear at all and only cosmetics. The best ilvl gear in the game should be obtainable by everyone who puts in at least some effort - heroic raid, +15's etc.. Gear power should be relatively quick to max out on a character if you are playing it properly, say 1 month from the start of a patch your character should be absolutely maxed in any content you choose to do, and everything after that should only be about hunting the achievements, the cosmetics or simply for prestige of having accomplished a victory.

Many people in this game are forced to take part in areas they otherwise dislike just to fully enjoy the area of the game they do like, myself included. For example, having to raid for trinkets and tier etc in order to be competitive in M+. That kind of thing should not exist at all.

Any serious high end gamer will tell you that the gear is irrelevant, they do what they do for the fun of being the best, not because it gives you big number loot. The people who do make that argument are the insecure ones who need that +5 ilvls to feel like they are good.

No one is forced to do anything in the game, so your entire argument collapses.

[Lolites]

Bad take in my opinion because they don't win the same gear but get rewarded the same gear. It's not someone wins the same car as you but goes to the same dealer as you but pays only 3/4 of the price you paid. It's about doing less or easier work but getting the same reward which by definition devalues your work.

first of all, no it doesnt, your car didnt just get worse bcs someone else have the same, and who the hell cares what they drive...
second of all, are you aware that this is completely normal in reality that someone buys the same care you have far cheaper in few months bcs there are new better cars? or gets one thats barely used but still FAR cheaper?
and least but not last, its not the same reward by far, check what i wrote two posts above

[cface]

This is EXACTLY the problem. If everyone is special, no one is.

You really need to get a life, not try and compensate your lacking in a game. I want to be special is a toy idea that small children quickly abandon as they grow up, the ones that still clings to this are manbabies

[Vakna]

No one is forced to do anything in the game, so your entire argument collapses.

My entire argument does not collapse, it is in fact the only one that is true in modern WoW. Nobody cares about "omg look at my mythic raid gear".

[Ryzeth]

M+ really shouldn't be giving out mythic raiding ilvl gear.

Mythic raiding is the hardest content this game has to offer, not just from a gameplay perspective, but also from the amount of time an effort it takes to manage a functioning roster.

To give out welfare gear to +15 casuals is disrespectful to the people who actually put in the time to work for their gear.

Pretty shit take tbh. Guessing you're someone who thinks only RBGs should have the highest level of PvP gear since it takes more work to organise 10 people, than it does to organise 3 (while completely ignoring everything else that goes into it, at that).

[Trenbolone]

No. Nobody cares about Mythic Raiding and nobody does Mythic Raiding. If anything, they should invest more into M+ and less into raiding, since its vastly more popular part of the game.

[arkanon]

My entire argument does not collapse, it is in fact the only one that is true in modern WoW. Nobody cares about "omg look at my mythic raid gear".

No, it does - because its entirely based on the FALSE premise that players are "forced" to do content they dont want to do. They are not, and thats a fact.

[Belloc]

Competitive content (Raiding, PvP, M+) should always be capable of rewarding max-level gear.

In my experience, +15s are just as difficult as some, if not most of the current-at-the-time mythic raid bosses and should absolutely reward mythic raid quality gear. Quit gatekeeping.

[arkanon]

Pretty shit take tbh. Guessing you're someone who thinks only RBGs should have the highest level of PvP gear since it takes more work to organise 10 people, than it does to organise 3 (while completely ignoring everything else that goes into it, at that).

Do you believe a M+15 is as challenging as a mythic raid? Just the raw difficulty of the content, ignoring logistics.

- - - Updated - - -

Competitive content (Raiding, PvP, M+) should always be capable of rewarding max-level gear.

In my experience, +15s are just as difficult as some, if not most of the current-at-the-time mythic raid bosses and should absolutely reward mythic raid quality gear. Quit gatekeeping.

So it takes the same amount of time to clear the M+15s as it does to clear the new mythic raid? Thats what you are trying to say? Do high end players spend days progressing on the same M+15 before clearing it?

[Belloc]

No but I do feel this way when someone on welfare has a better car than me, it just proves how broken the system is when hardworking tax paying people like raiders.... get shit on by the system and lazy sacks of shit who just leech off society and expect free hand outs benefit from it the most.

Ah, the views of someone privileged.

[Temp name]

Mythic raiding is the hardest content this game has to offer,

I'd just like to point out that this is just objectively false. Going by WoW Progress, 950 guilds have killed Mythic Jailer. That means somewhere around 20 000 people. Compare that to M+, where, you can make basically any arbitrary cutoff point, let's say 4000 score, which 40 *PEOPLE* have.
4000 score is all 30s (ish), which means that doing all 30s is about 500 times harder than doing 11/11 mythic currently.
Mythic raiding is hard, yes, but to say it's the hardest content in the game is laughable when there is an infinitely scaling option right next to it.

That said, yes, 15s are a bit too easy to give out mythic raid equivalent gear currently. Going by R.io https://raider.io/mythic-plus/cutoffs/season-sl-3/eu 26% of people playing in EU have 2500 which is all 15s, so the amount of people who have done some 15s will be a lot higher. Then again, 15s are probably as hard as the first boss in mythic Sepulcher, so who really cares.

The real solution would be to separate the gear from m+ from raids so that you'll get better raid gear from raids, and better m+ gear from m+, just like they've done with pvp, where pvp gear will (almost) always be better in pvp than any pve gear

- - - Updated - - -

So it takes the same amount of time to clear the M+15s as it does to clear the new mythic raid? Thats what you are trying to say? Do high end players spend days progressing on the same M+15 before clearing it?

It takes less time to kill the first 2 bosses in mythic Sepulcher than it does to finish a m+15 Sanguine Depths. Raids should not be judged only by the hardest bosses, but by the easiest, same way that you don't judge m+ by the hardest content that gives max ilvl gear, but the easiest.
Not to mention that raids give out higher ilvl loot from the last boss(es) than m+ can even give

[arkanon]

first of all, no it doesnt, your car didnt just get worse bcs someone else have the same, and who the hell cares what they drive...
second of all, are you aware that this is completely normal in reality that someone buys the same care you have far cheaper in few months bcs there are new better cars? or gets one thats barely used but still FAR cheaper?
and least but not last, its not the same reward by far, check what i wrote two posts above

In a few months? Lol no. Years, sure, but not months. The irony of your comment is, this means the best get the latest model, and the rest get it only once there are already better things out - comparing to wow, that would mean mythic raiders get the best, and the rest only get it once new raid is out and the mythic raiders are working on that gear. Is that what you want?

[Skildar]

The issue gere for me is that a heroic raider can easily get KSM. But if you have to choose between pursuing heroic raid or mm+ then choosing raid will never give you as good as rewards as mm+.

mm+ as a whole is very much more rewarding than heroic raiding through upgradable gear and weekly chest. And I like the mm+ systems and quality of gear, there is a good progression path here.

Heroic raiding has to become more rewarding and enable players to upgrade their raid rewards. I really wish for Dragonflight to address this issue.

[PaladinBash]

It's easy content. It's farmable content. It's braindead content that's a chore to do to fill up a box that sometimes gives you shit. That's all it is, that's all it has ever been. IDK what more it should be. It giving the best gear is perfectly fine since gear treadmill is already stupid and inefficient and any suggestion to make it worse can fuck right off.

Mythic raid should just drop mogs, mounts and cosmetic shit. Hell keys should keep giving better gear up to 20s to make people actually do them.