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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    M+ from a difficulty standpoint really doesn't need to be changed. It's okay if it doesn't appeal to everyone, but it's clear a large amount of people do. The last time that Blizzard nuked something that was really popular was 10/25 split raiding. Anecdotal, but I'd guess it likely nuked the raiding population as a result.
    It nuked "casual hardcore" raiding, which were 10H guilds that had no real intention of clearing a raid instance but wanted a seat at the "endgame raider" table anyway. M+ largely fills the gap for these players today, though every once and awhile we'll get the quarterly "DAE 10M best raiding ever and Blizzard hates its players for removing it????" thread.

  2. #62
    ?? I pugged to 3k as a enhance shammy. I never had that much trouble finding groups. What I found frustrating was people leaving after one wipe.

    I saw someone with 3.7k rating and they pugged all of it but they were a hunter.

  3. #63
    Legendary! Lord Pebbleton's Avatar
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    Hard agree 100%. If you try to pug anything above M+16, you are setting yourself up for disaster. Simply because if a member gets fed up or has to leave, you usually cannot go on, and you just lost a ton of time.

    I run 20s with my dedicated group, and when we don't run any keys, like at the end of a season, I just pug +15s to get something in the vault (for coins or transmo I may miss).

    Even then, it's hit or miss. I ran a Plaguefall+16 with an average pug, we had this guy pulling pretty low numbers. I figure it's okay, I am just there for completion. Then he gets angry halfway through because we are going too slow (it was not specified in the finder that we would time it), drops group, and leaves us in the mud. Never put anyone on my ignore list so fast.

    TL; DR - only pug +15s, and only if your score is above that already. Otherwise get ready to be frustrated

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jotaux View Post
    ?? I pugged to 3k as a enhance shammy. I never had that much trouble finding groups. What I found frustrating was people leaving after one wipe.

    I saw someone with 3.7k rating and they pugged all of it but they were a hunter.
    I guy in my guild literally pugged his way to 3750 as a hunter.

    Im 3355 myself. I didn't even really push, never used any voicecomms to get there.
    I get that this content isn't for everyone, but anyone demanding it be abolished because they don't like it is absolute lunacy.

  5. #65
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    The people saying PuGing above 15 is a recipe for disaster clearly haven't PuGed very often above 15. The higher the key gets, the overwhelmingly better the PuG experience gets. I see more toxicity (and bad play that inspires it) in the ~15 key range than anything else, probably becasue that's the largest pool of players, many of whom are just there for vault.

    PuGing higher keys is a million times better and toxicity is much rarer. People aren't there to do an obligation vault; by virtue of working to that key level, they are people who like doing keys and have a shared goal and an incentive to work together to get there. Yeah, if things go poorly, people will often just leave, but that's because most people playing in high keys are doing so to push and don't want to waste time finishing an untimed 21 key. (but in my experience, the group usually just mutually disbands; there's no shittiness from anyone).

    Low keys are always a gamble. You get tryhards who join +10s and then throw tantrums if you don't do MDI skips, you get people on alts who forget they are grouped with people with lesser experience and get salty about any mistakes, and you get lots and lots of players whose poorer skill level prevents them from pushing higher, which can create the kind of frustrations that cause people to lose their cool. Honestly the shittiness of people in lower key ranges is why I try to crank out my vaults on 17-18s for the most part, but I still encounter a lot of it when I play my alts that aren't good enough to push very high.

    But again none of this matters since if someone really hates the PuGing experience, they have the option to just not PuG. Demanding others not be able to do it either is fucking nonsensical. People should stop trying to control how other people enjoy the game and focus on curating their own experience.
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  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    The people saying PuGing above 15 is a recipe for disaster clearly haven't PuGed very often above 15. The higher the key gets, the overwhelmingly better the PuG experience gets. I see more toxicity (and bad play that inspires it) in the ~15 key range than anything else, probably becasue that's the largest pool of players, many of whom are just there for vault.

    PuGing higher keys is a million times better and toxicity is much rarer. People aren't there to do an obligation vault; by virtue of working to that key level, they are people who like doing keys and have a shared goal and an incentive to work together to get there. Yeah, if things go poorly, people will often just leave, but that's because most people playing in high keys are doing so to push and don't want to waste time finishing an untimed 21 key. (but in my experience, the group usually just mutually disbands; there's no shittiness from anyone).

    Low keys are always a gamble. You get tryhards who join +10s and then throw tantrums if you don't do MDI skips, you get people on alts who forget they are grouped with people with lesser experience and get salty about any mistakes, and you get lots and lots of players whose poorer skill level prevents them from pushing higher, which can create the kind of frustrations that cause people to lose their cool. Honestly the shittiness of people in lower key ranges is why I try to crank out my vaults on 17-18s for the most part, but I still encounter a lot of it when I play my alts that aren't good enough to push very high.

    But again none of this matters since if someone really hates the PuGing experience, they have the option to just not PuG. Demanding others not be able to do it either is fucking nonsensical. People should stop trying to control how other people enjoy the game and focus on curating their own experience.

    This, whenever i do ksm, once i get my keys or others in the 17 range its smooth sailling, its only in the 14s or lower that you have people who don't even know essential boss tactics, but i still pug it for fun cuzz its a fun way to get into quick interesting combat on healer alts.

    Organisation is required at, i donnu, the 25+ level, where strats need to be tailored around your specific comp and thus communication is important, people pug more often then not below it and do it succesfully, though of course there's a chance of failure.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
    I guy in my guild literally pugged his way to 3750 as a hunter.

    Im 3355 myself. I didn't even really push, never used any voicecomms to get there.
    I get that this content isn't for everyone, but anyone demanding it be abolished because they don't like it is absolute lunacy.
    Yeah I personally don't get the want to have your in game experience limited. But I'm also the person that thinks mythic raid should be cross server from day 1.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Firmly believe the ones that constantly encounter toxicity is probably contributing to it.
    And they believe they dont, cause participation trophy mentality, which is what breeds most toxicity but people refuse to accept that as a homo sapiens you are supposed to be improving at something you spend time on.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    The people saying PuGing above 15 is a recipe for disaster clearly haven't PuGed very often above 15. The higher the key gets, the overwhelmingly better the PuG experience gets. I see more toxicity (and bad play that inspires it) in the ~15 key range than anything else, probably becasue that's the largest pool of players, many of whom are just there for vault.
    I disagree with this, with 15s I find you have decent people who just want to get their 15 done for the week and the run is pretty smooth. I found people more toxic at the 20 level. The sub 15 level is worst though. I don't know what 21+ players are like because I just wanted 3k for conduits.

  10. #70
    I pugged to 3699 IO this season as WW on NA, which is enough for hero title. As far as I understand pug scene in EU is even better.

    I'v timed keys like 26 fort ToP without voice, Though most 27s and 28s I pugged we did use discord. In no voice keys someone just says before key starts "in lich area, monk get left caster first, tank right caster, hunter left second, lock second right" That is enough for no kicks to go off often, since you also have other cc to stop casts.

    I'v also encountered like no toxicity pugging 25s+, at worst someone just got removed from group after deplete, but no one ever shit talked someone or used "gamer" words in voice, most people were chill.

    I will say there is a bit of "elo hell" at 23- easy 25s level where people have the gear and dps to get to that level but don't know how to use defensives or cc/kicks properly, or tanks with very bad routes. It does get way better at 26+ level because players there are actually legit good players.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jotaux View Post
    Yeah I personally don't get the want to have your in game experience limited. But I'm also the person that thinks mythic raid should be cross server from day 1.
    I love pugging. It seems weird but the experience has gotten so much better with pugging since probably the Cata era. The last two expansion i have done a ton of pugging because my schedule would frequently not fit with one of the raid teams in my guild and the bad experiences probably account for 1-2% of my groups. Any one looking to abolish this experience is just a toxic player that refuses to admit they are the problem.
    We live in an era of "me versus them", an era where something is done that you don't like means you are personally attacked. People whine too much.
    Let us play video games and be happy.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jotaux View Post
    Yeah I personally don't get the want to have your in game experience limited. But I'm also the person that thinks mythic raid should be cross server from day 1.
    Im game, not that it matters to me really but maybe if mythic lockouts didnt have IDs then it would be even better

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    Considering that most of the +20 I've done in this season with PUG - no and that's a stupid resolution. And to be honest? Most of the keys I've done on 20 or above with pugs were with really good, skilled, well-mannered people. The people with worst behaviour are doing +15 right now. They are ~260ilvl, expect to be boosted for the weekly chest.

    It doesn't matter if it's +10, +3 or +25, you will always have a chance to encounter toxic people.

    That's just a PUGland for you.
    The golden rule whenever people claim PUGs are toxic:



    I have zero doubt in my mind that OP is one of those low ilvl / exceptionally poor performers you mention. That's why no one will join his keys and everyone who does leaves.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    It's an absolutely pointless system.

    Why do you feel like it's necessary *forcing* random players to play together to create and form "teams"

    You can go with your dedicated team above +15 just fine right now, you add them, you invite them... and then you go.
    And you do the same thing next week or whenever you feel like.

    There are more than enough times were I would run with a random player to fill an empty slot in my +20 or +15. That would be much harder to do with your idea for absolutely no benefit at all.
    Because they're fascists who want to control everyone else to ensure no one else is allowed to succeed where they personally fail (over and over and over).

    20s are piss easy, but to some they're like climbing mount Everest.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    They are hardly toxic at all. I slowly pug my way up to ksm every season and its no where near as bad as ppl make it out to be. Learn the dungeon mechanics, learn the important interrupts, and no how to do your role. Once u got that down, you can absolutely carry most keys by yourself.

    If you encounter a lot of toxicity, its usually something you are doing.
    Examples:
    No interrupts
    Bad dps
    Failing mechanics
    Taking a bunch of avoidable damage

    If you aren't doing the above but still encountering toxicity, then you should pick your groups better.
    Invite players more carefully.
    Don't join +15 keys of 1200 rio players
    Build your comp better
    99.9% of the time the people claiming "toxicity" are the 1200 io players demanding entrance to +15 keys, who don't have an interrupt on their bars and are clicking their abilities. That's why those making such claims should be ignored.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jotaux View Post
    Yeah I personally don't get the want to have your in game experience limited. But I'm also the person that thinks mythic raid should be cross server from day 1.
    They probably would be if guilds were cross-server. That's likely coming in 10.2.5-11.1.5 timeframe. Bliz has been slowly redoing the backend of WoW, but just got done with crossfaction and AH. Bnet Communities -> Guilds is the next hurdle to overcome.

    Servers gatekept the economy, and now with the AH being cross-economy, servers don't matter as much. They can do cross-server trading without killing the economy. They just need to let it go for a bit to stabilize currency levels and whatnot.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  15. #75
    Everything in the game can be pugged, the problem is the learning curve. There are some changes Blizzard could make, like allowing people to play with all affixes even at low keys, or having a UI option to see timers in m0, stuff to let people get used to mechanics in a more forgiving environment.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    Cap m+ to +15 for pugs. For higher keys, bring back the old Arena teams interface and make it so you can only do keys as that team. Would make it a lot more interesting and reduce the pugging issues.
    Overall im missing Arenateams, because i made a lot of friends back then because you was forced to play with them. Now im doing randoM Arena, we have a run, we are adding each other in Bnet and in 9/10 cases we never play again. Oh and ofc its no voice.

    To do this all solo is great, but it would be nice if there is a system that gives longterm teams/guilds some bonuses, more loot, more rating, less rating lose, more valor/conq/honor points etc.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by talmir View Post
    When I look at the pugs looking for people the majority of them are higher than 15's. The lower ones do get filled faster, true, but higher keys are definately present.
    It's just because people stop playing much sooner at low levels. It changes a lot from season start to season end.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    You are just removing the "solo players" from the content as anyone without a team can't do jack in terms of pushing rating etc.
    If someone is interested in pushing, he would also be interested in finding a reliable/consistent group to have better results. If he's interested in gear only, there's no need to go past 15s.

    It seems to me many people have a really skewed vision about how really matters the r.io score for most players.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
    No it doesn't make any sense. So what if participation drops at a higher level?

    Do you guys even play this shit? Again, if you don't play something.. don't fuck about with it. M+ is just fine the way it is.
    If someone doen't like the friction they should play something else as high level content is clearly not for them.
    Because now 15s are high level content. To me it seems you're just trying to make high level M+ look more important than they really are (they're just a glorified validation method for a small subset of players).
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Because now 15s are high level content. To me it seems you're just trying to make high level M+ look more important than they really are (they're just a glorified validation method for a small subset of players).
    You can say the same about any of the high level content present in the game. I wonder how high a percentage of players do mythic raiding compared to high m+'s?

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Every single time I hear abt waiting 2 hrs to get into a group its because your rio score is too low. If you are pugging, you have to do it incrementally. Dont queue for 15s at 1500 score. Dont queue for 10s until you've done each dungeon on at least 5. Keep all your keys within q levels of eachother and don't try to jump up more than 1-2 levels at a time.

    Or push your own key. Drop it if u managed to climb it too high and no one queues for ur group cause ur rating is green
    Of course my rio score is going to be low in the first two weeks of a season. Has nothing to do with your rio score. People only want to bring the top classes that are in the MDI because they want to be carried.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by saixilein View Post
    Overall im missing Arenateams, because i made a lot of friends back then because you was forced to play with them. Now im doing randoM Arena, we have a run, we are adding each other in Bnet and in 9/10 cases we never play again. Oh and ofc its no voice.

    To do this all solo is great, but it would be nice if there is a system that gives longterm teams/guilds some bonuses, more loot, more rating, less rating lose, more valor/conq/honor points etc.
    "because i made a lot of friends back then because you was forced to play with them."

    "made friends... forced"

    I know what you mean, but man that sentence struck me as the epitome of sad for a second there.

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