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  1. #141
    All of the game should be PUG friendly. ICC/Ulduar was one of the best raiding experience partly due to amout of PUGs.

    So, hell no. If you like to run with your pals, run hard content with your pals. I dont have friends in game and i dont want to have friends in the game. Nobody would play this game today if you HAD to play with people.

  2. #142
    Dungeons are the perfect pugging content, they require little to no communication, the mechanics are straight forward, the routes become common knowledge a few weeks in, the real problem here is trying to make competitive content from what isn't meant to be competitive content, and the toxicity coming from a poor scoring system people mistake for a ranking system.

    Most of this disaster is on Blizzard trying to turn fun relaxed content into a malfunctionning gimmicky esport, and a lot of the playerbase suddenly trying to be more competitive than they can afford to, chasing score instead of chasing good gameplay.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by b1gh3x View Post
    M+ is great fun with a group of friends.

    Solo, it is easily one of the most miserable experiences this game has to offer.

    As solo;

    -the toxicity you have to endure, even if not directed at you, is some of the worst I have seen outside of a MOBA.

    -the pressure to preform is at an elevated level, beyond that of just rolling with friends, likely contributing to the toxicity problem.

    -the wait times are horrendous if you are a dps. Even if you are assembling your own group. You either have to wait on a tank or a healer, or you spend a good chunk of your play time getting rejected, applying to join other groups.

    -Even if the previous three aren't an issue, it has the same pitfalls as any pugs, in that people aren't always on the same page. Examples like unfamiliar routes, unintended mob pulls, wasted cooldowns, and a whole host of other coordination problems.

    With no alternative end game content, it is as if Blizzard is trying to de-incentivize solo play.
    It depends what level you play on. In low keys it is super toxic, but in 20+ it's actually quite chill.

    I still enjoy more doing keys with friends though, even if my friends suck and I have to play lower keys.
    Last edited by facefist; 2022-08-23 at 07:41 AM.

  4. #144
    Warchief Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b1gh3x View Post
    M+ is great fun with a group of friends.

    Solo, it is easily one of the most miserable experiences this game has to offer.
    I mean Ion said as much in one of his earlier interviews... I think from Legion?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Trenbolone View Post
    M0 should be queueable. There should be some kind of leaver/dc protection for keys.
    Agreed on M0 but for leaver/dc protection for keys - there have been no good ideas on how to implement such a system that isn't without potentially larger issues: holding players hostage, degenerate gameplay, etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludek View Post
    There are possible solutions to ease the problem, yet none of them is a perfect one.
    Blizz could try punish the quiters, but then it ends out in even more meta groups.
    Also that would bring out a bad emergent gameplay where players who want to quit a key will actively (or passively) sabotage the group until someone else leaves first to avoid the penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludek View Post
    Removing the timer (or making it bragging rights only) would potentially either trivialize the dungeons, or make people burn themselves out with pushing a key outside of their gear/skill range (but tbh, if they want to burn themselves, let them).
    Eh... If that were the case, why aren't certain cooldowns reset after a wipe? In a raid setting you can pull with hero, wipe and have hero back up. In a M+, can't do that until after the timer has passed.

    And technically, for the purposes of the GV - only completion is considered. So if players want to ignore the timer, they can.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ludek View Post
    Personally I would just remove the key downgrading on fail due to not completing the dung - then the stakes would be the same as in raids - your group was not able to complete the dungeon, you can try with another one.
    Ooof... again negative emergent gameplay can arise with no degrading of keys. Think about it, you would reset the key if you knew you were off on completing in time right? So then what prevents a player from reseting the key earlier? On the first full party wipe? On the first non-wipe death? On the first bad pull of a mob pack?

    Similar to how early beta testing of Torghast where players would reset their runs until the first power drop from a run was actually a good power. Because reset cycling is "wastes" less time than running the dungeon with errors for 20+ minutes to realize that you're not going to make the timer. Errors being defined as player deaths or bad pulls or party wipes, etc etc.
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  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by b1gh3x View Post
    M+ is great fun with a group of friends.

    Solo, it is easily one of the most miserable experiences this game has to offer.

    As solo;

    -the toxicity you have to endure, even if not directed at you, is some of the worst I have seen outside of a MOBA.

    -the pressure to preform is at an elevated level, beyond that of just rolling with friends, likely contributing to the toxicity problem.

    -the wait times are horrendous if you are a dps. Even if you are assembling your own group. You either have to wait on a tank or a healer, or you spend a good chunk of your play time getting rejected, applying to join other groups.

    -Even if the previous three aren't an issue, it has the same pitfalls as any pugs, in that people aren't always on the same page. Examples like unfamiliar routes, unintended mob pulls, wasted cooldowns, and a whole host of other coordination problems.

    With no alternative end game content, it is as if Blizzard is trying to de-incentivize solo play.
    I don't think M+ was ever meant to be pugged. It's a format that rewards tight teamwork. I disagree, however, that Blizz is trying to de-incentivize solo play. They admitted during Dragon Isles reveal that solo players represent over half their subscriber base.

    Not every feature needs to cater to every segment of the player base. Want to see the dungeons at a less challenging level? They have N, H, and low level M. Want to form a tight team and see how far you can push it? They have keys that keep scaling to eventually challenge everyone.

    Variety is good. None of us should insist that the game be centered around us.
    Last edited by Joveon Lightbringer; 2022-09-14 at 05:11 AM. Reason: spelling

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  6. #146
    You got friends? Good for you, play with them. Why force others to play the way you like it? Personally I never encountered toxic behaviour in pugged M+. The only thing they should do is polish LFG interface. Entering the same message over and over becomes tiresome very quickly. Also they should allow for filters because why would I search for groups that already have healers in it.

  7. #147
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Anything that relies heavily on leader boards or competition between groups is not a good design for random strangers getting together. I've never much cared for M+ because those elements reduce what should be something fun to something else. A lot of the game is like this now and people wonder why it's not as much fun as it used to be. It breeds arrogance which is something that the game could do with a lot less.

    This applies to a lot more than just M+. It's DPS meters and everything else that establishes pecking orders of players. It's not a terrible reason to opt out entirely and settle for just playing with friends and people you know.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2022-09-19 at 05:51 AM.
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  8. #148
    Reasons to not do M+ with anyone you care about:
    1. You can't bail on the group, no matter what.
    2. Your friend may be sucking ass, so now you're stuck in a fail group and have to be nice about it.
    3. I don't want to fail in front of people I care about.

  9. #149
    Dreadlord saintminya's Avatar
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    I agree. M+ may be comfortably puggable depending on the key and current affixes, but in my opinion is meant to be done with at least a partial group of friends. I'd say raids are better tailored to full or partial pugs, if only due to the presence of a timer. Engage however you want, but I'm never tempted to run any M+ when my guildies/real life mates are offline.
    Last edited by saintminya; 2022-09-19 at 06:17 AM.

  10. #150
    I agree with OP. M+ is a miserable experience alone, even as a healer, arguably the least stressful and pressured role.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethas View Post
    Also they should allow for filters because why would I search for groups that already have healers in it.
    Check out "Premade Groups Filter" addon. Another addon that should be part of the standard UI

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Cynical Asshole View Post
    Reasons to not do M+ with anyone you care about:
    1. You can't bail on the group, no matter what.
    I'm constantly playing with a friend, we're always bailing together.

    2. Your friend may be sucking ass, so now you're stuck in a fail group and have to be nice about it.
    Or be a grown adult and tell them they suck.

    3. I don't want to fail in front of people I care about.
    Get over your own sucking then.

  13. #153
    (OPs) listed issues dont necessarily originate from competitive content, and not even from gear distribution representative for a misplaced neoliberal design philosophy - toxicity isnt exclusive to mythic PvE, neither r DPS queue times nor any other miscommunications (which too often result in toxicity), but the human condition.

    but m+ is an illustrative highlight on the last xpacs corruption of design paradigms - the decasualisation started late Legion. endgame progression was slowed via scarcitiy, time investment (eg borrowed power grind) and skill (well, mythic tier content requires skill, to be translated as time investment). high entrance and progression barriers segregate the playerbase for the result of performance pressure, which often ends in toxicity.

    this MAGA design wasnt exclusive to m+, but already had become the integral logic: to force engagement, also social, as guilds and Friend lists simply mean another (emotional) bond to untie before unsub. simple logic: less loot=more /played.

    it made loot so great again, that it ignored the social basics of the human condition and enforced a rigid career mindset, wow became elitist jerks paradise. almost the complete initial SL design was time-intensive, if not outright hostile, as it required massive investment, which symptomatically became stress. (so i quit s1)

    though Blizzard lost touch with the playerbase long before (u think u do, but u dont), this trend of ignorance on (massive) negative playerfeedback felt like a running gag since Legion and is maybe the most important aspect of player frustration and therefore toxicity - since Legion the design parameter accessibility was reduced to introduction to endgame content.

    a lot of this frustration simply is ilvl (as in output) drama, while M+ is maybe the most accessible endgame content (small difficulty increases) not just the loot system, but also the competitive aspect is almost exclusively designed for a (very vocal) minority. many wouldnt choose this progression avenue, if it wouldnt be the most accessible source of mythic gear.

    personally i dislike the timer, as it feeds into the GoGoGo mentality and subjects to (perceived) Meta-gameplay, but i do understand (and sometimes enjoy) the competitive aspect and the convinience of a professionalized routine (it installs).

    WoWs playerbase is very heterogenous, the 12 year nub and his mom, the mid-thirties c-suit exec and the retired plumber. it is not to be reduced to professionals for another SL. its like referencing Micheal Schuhmacher in StraßenVerkehrsOrdnung, to design by a focus on the very marginal (progaming) elite. its ok to have high tier content for high tier players, but its hostile not just to exclude the majority from high tier content by rigid time investments, but to design any endgame activity exclusive for competitive mindsets.

    so m+ high tier isnt meant and cant be pugged (by majority), but the original issue extends to overall endgame. an easy solution would be the return of TF and WQ gear for alternative progression routes, but such probably could only further delay WoWs stagnation. as the central issue of the historic trend of design is exclusivity, as in FOMO, MAGA and P2W.

    endgame needs to be inclusive and offer more than just grind until power cap. personally the most fun starts close to BIS ilvl, cuz iam done with the fucking job and can now enjoy my lambos freeride in whatever direction i feel like.
    Last edited by Final Verdict; 2022-09-19 at 12:03 PM.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by b1gh3x View Post
    M+ is great fun with a group of friends.

    Solo, it is easily one of the most miserable experiences this game has to offer.

    As solo;

    -the toxicity you have to endure, even if not directed at you, is some of the worst I have seen outside of a MOBA.

    -the pressure to preform is at an elevated level, beyond that of just rolling with friends, likely contributing to the toxicity problem.

    -the wait times are horrendous if you are a dps. Even if you are assembling your own group. You either have to wait on a tank or a healer, or you spend a good chunk of your play time getting rejected, applying to join other groups.

    -Even if the previous three aren't an issue, it has the same pitfalls as any pugs, in that people aren't always on the same page. Examples like unfamiliar routes, unintended mob pulls, wasted cooldowns, and a whole host of other coordination problems.

    With no alternative end game content, it is as if Blizzard is trying to de-incentivize solo play.
    It's not a hot take, but a fact that M+ wasn't really designed for pugs.

    And that is a bad thing and I'd argue one of the main reasons why recent expansions are so disliked. Well, it's not necessarily M+ itself, but just the fact how all the actual endgame content is a horrible experience for the vast majority of the playerbase. On one side, solo players are being punished really hard, but also on the other side, there are no or little incentives to join guilds either as this format doesn't fit with M+ well either.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    Cap m+ to +15 for pugs. For higher keys, bring back the old Arena teams interface and make it so you can only do keys as that team. Would make it a lot more interesting and reduce the pugging issues.
    Honestly, I regularly pug 20+ as DPS. The range 15+ is not where the negative lug experience comes from IMO. Ofc from time to time I have runs that don't finish in time, but barely ever is there any toxicity or anger involved. It's not universally true, but the crowd that pushes "higher" keys is generally much more relaxed IMO.
    Same goes for 2-5 keys. The hell starts from 6-14. People are flaming 24/7 and are generally always on the brink of explosion.

  16. #156
    I've pugged up to +20 perfectly fine I've rarely had bad experiences, actually the lower keys are usually the worst

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Gasparde View Post
    I'm constantly playing with a friend, we're always bailing together.


    Or be a grown adult and tell them they suck.


    Get over your own sucking then.
    Yeah, the special snowflake syndrome reaches insane level, cause they call themselves "Friends" but they are not, the meaning is really weird with some people.

    Our friend group that goes back 18 years can not talk politely to each other, its literally how we are, the same with every real friendship group i meet.

    If you cant be a grown adult and be honest with others, especially your friends and family, then whats the point?

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Final Verdict View Post
    (OPs) listed issues dont necessarily originate from competitive content, and not even from gear distribution representative for a misplaced neoliberal design philosophy - toxicity isnt exclusive to mythic PvE, neither r DPS queue times nor any other miscommunications (which too often result in toxicity), but the human condition.

    but m+ is an illustrative highlight on the last xpacs corruption of design paradigms - the decasualisation started late Legion. endgame progression was slowed via scarcitiy, time investment (eg borrowed power grind) and skill (well, mythic tier content requires skill, to be translated as time investment). high entrance and progression barriers segregate the playerbase for the result of performance pressure, which often ends in toxicity.

    this MAGA design wasnt exclusive to m+, but already had become the integral logic: to force engagement, also social, as guilds and Friend lists simply mean another (emotional) bond to untie before unsub. simple logic: less loot=more /played.

    it made loot so great again, that it ignored the social basics of the human condition and enforced a rigid career mindset, wow became elitist jerks paradise. almost the complete initial SL design was time-intensive, if not outright hostile, as it required massive investment, which symptomatically became stress. (so i quit s1)

    though Blizzard lost touch with the playerbase long before (u think u do, but u dont), this trend of ignorance on (massive) negative playerfeedback felt like a running gag since Legion and is maybe the most important aspect of player frustration and therefore toxicity - since Legion the design parameter accessibility was reduced to introduction to endgame content.

    a lot of this frustration simply is ilvl (as in output) drama, while M+ is maybe the most accessible endgame content (small difficulty increases) not just the loot system, but also the competitive aspect is almost exclusively designed for a (very vocal) minority. many wouldnt choose this progression avenue, if it wouldnt be the most accessible source of mythic gear.

    personally i dislike the timer, as it feeds into the GoGoGo mentality and subjects to (perceived) Meta-gameplay, but i do understand (and sometimes enjoy) the competitive aspect and the convinience of a professionalized routine (it installs).

    WoWs playerbase is very heterogenous, the 12 year nub and his mom, the mid-thirties c-suit exec and the retired plumber. it is not to be reduced to professionals for another SL. its like referencing Micheal Schuhmacher in StraßenVerkehrsOrdnung, to design by a focus on the very marginal (progaming) elite. its ok to have high tier content for high tier players, but its hostile not just to exclude the majority from high tier content by rigid time investments, but to design any endgame activity exclusive for competitive mindsets.

    so m+ high tier isnt meant and cant be pugged (by majority), but the original issue extends to overall endgame. an easy solution would be the return of TF and WQ gear for alternative progression routes, but such probably could only further delay WoWs stagnation. as the central issue of the historic trend of design is exclusivity, as in FOMO, MAGA and P2W.

    endgame needs to be inclusive and offer more than just grind until power cap. personally the most fun starts close to BIS ilvl, cuz iam done with the fucking job and can now enjoy my lambos freeride in whatever direction i feel like.
    I agree with you on almost every single point. I would venture to say everything up to +20 is puggable but beyond that is when you want people to know the ins and outs etc. I got my KSM at 288 ilvl on a brewmaster monk this season with a few 17s and 18s thrown in since Kara was a nightmare, i pugged all of it and was done with the patch within 2 weeks which is solid for me as no one i know really plays and those that do want to raid log.

    The only thing blizzard needs to do is make all gear from a vender that you save up points for that were on a weekly cap ( but can be made up by late bloomers ) that you can spend on 298 items. This would put a time table of start to finish on when you are expected to stick around instead of playing the slot machine which also gets people to say screw it why bother. Take a lead from the FF14 devs, its okay to take a break.

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