M+ Hot Take: M+ is not meant to be pugged

[neescher]

This guy is talking abt keys under 15

It's not really better under 15. Probably worse. See how many 2.8k+ dps apply to a group if you start one. Most people just look at the number when they invite, and in their mind there's no reason to ever invite a 1.5k player over a 2.5k player.

[kranur]

Here's a ... weird? ... thought ... if you feel that they weren't meant to be pugged, why are you pugging them? It's not like some automated system forces you to.
On that note, Mythic or even Heroic raids aren't really meant to be pugged either, but nothing stops people who want to give it a shot.

[ellieg]

It's not really better under 15. Probably worse. See how many 2.8k+ dps apply to a group if you start one. Most people just look at the number when they invite, and in their mind there's no reason to ever invite a 1.5k player over a 2.5k player.

2.5k+ players almost never apply to keys under 14. Except for like +2-4 if they are valor farming.

[neescher]

2.5k+ players almost never apply to keys under 14. Except for like +2-4 if they are valor farming.

That's not my experience, but I haven't really played in ~4-6 weeks, might be different now

[MidnyteTV]

If you think that way, there's an easy solution: Don't pug.

There's no reason for anyone to demand to take it away from the rest of us, who enjoy it.

I don't demand to take M+ puggin away from anybody. Thats why I dont M+ that often, i don't often have enough people i know to do it on a whim, it's usually a planned activity. So when I want to do it on a whim, i don't because pugging is a nightmare.

[Moose184]

I'm saying it dsnt take 2 hrs to get an invite like u claimed. And if it does for u its cause ur rio is too low for the groups u are applying for like I said. And if u finally do get that invite to a key u aren't qualified for based on ur low rio, its no wonder ppl are toxic. The group is prob full of other low rating ppl that don't know what they are doing, which leads to frustration.

I didn't know you were looking over my shoulder while I played. Even when I had a high rio in season 2 when I had KSM it still took 1-2 hours to get into a group and if I have a ilvl of 252 on week one or two of season three and people still won't invite even to +6 or 7's. Not to mention nobody want's to invite a melee when a third of the affixes are up that week.

- - - Updated - - -

Two words: Own key.

Doesn't change the fact that people leave for no reason in pugs.

[Twdft]

Doesn't change the fact that people leave for no reason in pugs.

I always wonder why so many people encounter leavers and toxicity on a regular basis. I have pugged my way to 2800, and I think I had about 5 leavers. Can't even blame all of them because sometimes it's just not worth to stay. And toxic? Also only a handful of people and they were not really "toxic" but rather had a more passive/aggressive style of expressing themselves as would be necessary.

I don't think I have simply amazing luck with my groups, I rather suspect that the people complaining about widespread leavers and toxicity might just be the reason for that.


https://raider.io/sl3-review

[Moose184]

I always wonder why so many people encounter leavers and toxicity on a regular basis. I have pugged my way to 2800, and I think I had about 5 leavers. Can't even blame all of them because sometimes it's just not worth to stay. And toxic? Also only a handful of people and they were not really "toxic" but rather had a more passive/aggressive style of expressing themselves as would be necessary.

I don't think I have simply amazing luck with my groups, I rather suspect that the people complaining about widespread leavers and toxicity might just be the reason for that.


https://raider.io/sl3-review

The WoW community is one of the most toxic communities ever. If you think toxic people are rare in this game you are delusional.

[Elsiriana]

Well the problem is that most people expect and i say this in a tanking PoV that you take the route as someone who does MDI, i had that today in plaguefall i got bitchslapped by a bunch of karens because i didnt pull the exact same mobs as mdi players i was like wtf this is only a 15 not a freaking 25.

[Rendark]

The WoW community is one of the most toxic communities ever. If you think toxic people are rare in this game you are delusional.

If that's true then why don't i run into to them all the time?

[Tziva]

Well the problem is that most people expect and i say this in a tanking PoV that you take the route as someone who does MDI, i had that today in plaguefall i got bitchslapped by a bunch of karens because i didnt pull the exact same mobs as mdi players i was like wtf this is only a 15 not a freaking 25.

In general, when I am tanking, I do pretty similar routes to what I see in my main's keys, but I will never do any route that relies on a bunch of skips in +15 or lower keys, especially if it is a full PuG. There are too many ways they can go wrong -- starting with not triggering Wo, to killing Wo a zillion years before the rest of the mobs, to fucking up stealth and pulling stuff -- but I always say at the start of the key that I'm doing a straightforward route with no skips. I did a lot of DOS while Scale hunting and I ALWAYS did the basic Hakkar > Mech > Ardenweald route with no skips, and no one was ever pissy about it when I told them my plans up front. The only place I ever try to attempt a skip at all is at the start of Mists, but I also go into it knowing that we might have to do those particular pulls I'd normally bypass.

Problems tend to arise more if it is discovered mid-run that things aren't going the way they expected. I find you'll have infinitely better success saying, "this is only a 15 so I'm just going to do a basic route" before we start. At absolute worst, at least people can get their tantrums out of the way before the clock is running. People fighting mid-key is the fucking worst.

[Jastall]

I guess my 2700 rating gotten mostly by pugging with literally a handful of bad experiences was a product of my imagination then. I do make my own keys so it takes a lot of the waiting time off but is so, so worth it.

The most toxic keys are in the 12-13 range, where bad people try to get KSM and get an attitude for it, and above 17 where the worst metaslaves reside. Outside of those sections my pugging experience was silky smooth the vast majority of the time. Just avoid traps like people with overly low or high RIO (super high ones might complain all the time that you don't do things exactly the way they want or quit the microsecond things don't go perfectly) or grabbing the first tank/healer you see regardless of ability. Tanks make or break pug M+.

Also, I daresay a ton of keys are pugged- I don't have the numbers but I wouldn't even be close to surprised if it was the majority by a fairly wide margin. Keys are definitely more puggable than raids until you get to the higher levels.

[Tziva]

(super high ones might complain all the time that you don't do things exactly the way they want or quit the microsecond things don't go perfectly

I mentioned earlier in the thread that I haven't seen a lot of toxicity in PuGs overall, but this is the one place I do consistently see it anytime I am not the one making the group, and I wonder if it contributes partially to the huge divide in experiences. People tend to invite the people with the highest scores that sign up -- and on a surface level, why wouldn't you? -- but I think it's generally a mistake. Most people know intuitively not to invite people with really low score, but I don't think too many people consider the risks of high score players in low key runs.

Unless you're doing a +2 where it can be a total clownshow but you're still going to easily +3 a key with a crazy good dpser, inviting people with a score massively above the level you're doing is a recipe for disaster IMO. Although you'll get chill people farming valor or carrying a shitty friend on occasion, I feel like the majority of the time I invite someone massively overscore a key level, they come in with very unreasonable expectations and get mad when the key doesn't go as if everyone else has that same level of gear and experience. They are also are more prone to ditching after a single wipe or big mistake, and much more likely to demand you do specific routes or strategies. If I'm running a +8, it's probably because I just hit 60 and my gear is shit, and maybe the other people in the group have done like four keys ever, and sure my healer buddy may have a 3k main but this is the first time he's ever healed a keystone before and so probably we're not going to be doing huge pulls and MDI level skips.

If I'm listing an alt's 13 key, for example, I'll take a 2600 person before a 3200 person just because I feel like there's much better odds that the guy just above KSM is more familiar with what kind of performance level to expect from kind of players who are running 13s. I'm generalising, but if I invite a guy who normally does mid-20s keys to my shitty alt run, they often come in expecting everyone else to operate at the same level as them and are frustrated when that doesn't happen, and toxicity happens. It's better for everyone involved -- them included -- if we just avoid that scenario.

[TomBrokovski]

Cap m+ to +15 for pugs. For higher keys, bring back the old Arena teams interface and make it so you can only do keys as that team. Would make it a lot more interesting and reduce the pugging issues.

Honestly most pugging issues are in the lower keys vs higher ones, there's a huge skill gap present there. If you have your interrupt on your bar and keybound, you're already better than 99% of pugs in the +2-14 key range.

[Twdft]

<snip>

Yeah, inviting rating appropriate people is good. A 3200 player simply gets nothing out of a +15, you have to hope it's not an impatient player.

This weekend I pugged my way to KSM on yet another char, just for the fun of it. DOS was last dungeon missing, got into a group, go to dungeon and tank takes what felt like ages to choose the last player. They did your bog standard route without any skips so could have been you but they didn't announce it before. Run went as expected for when all chars are about 2500, some mistakes but timed with a couple minutes to spare. At the end turned out that the guy specifically invited players just shy of 2500 so they knew everyone would hang in there wanting to get the mount.

[Nephod]

I have never and will never (due to lack of friends and no interest in making any) play as a premade. I have pugged m+ as a healer since Legion and it is the only thing I do in WoW (the only game I play).

I hope nothing changes.

[neescher]

The WoW community is one of the most toxic communities ever. If you think toxic people are rare in this game you are delusional.

The wow community isn't anywhere close as toxic as most MOBA, FPS or BR communities. Seriously, if you encounter toxic people on a regular basis, the problem might be you. I've been pugging 15-20 keys all expansion, somewhere around 500x 15+ timed runs combined on all alts+main, and I have encountered toxic people in maybe 10-15 runs total.

In general, when I am tanking, I do pretty similar routes to what I see in my main's keys, but I will never do any route that relies on a bunch of skips in +15 or lower keys, especially if it is a full PuG. There are too many ways they can go wrong -- starting with not triggering Wo, to killing Wo a zillion years before the rest of the mobs, to fucking up stealth and pulling stuff -- but I always say at the start of the key that I'm doing a straightforward route with no skips. I did a lot of DOS while Scale hunting and I ALWAYS did the basic Hakkar > Mech > Ardenweald route with no skips, and no one was ever pissy about it when I told them my plans up front. The only place I ever try to attempt a skip at all is at the start of Mists, but I also go into it knowing that we might have to do those particular pulls I'd normally bypass.

Problems tend to arise more if it is discovered mid-run that things aren't going the way they expected. I find you'll have infinitely better success saying, "this is only a 15 so I'm just going to do a basic route" before we start. At absolute worst, at least people can get their tantrums out of the way before the clock is running. People fighting mid-key is the fucking worst.

Things like that is why some people encounter WAY less toxicity than others. If you actually talk and communicate before a key (and that even includes something like saying "hi"), people will be way more open and friendlier.

Yeah, inviting rating appropriate people is good. A 3200 player simply gets nothing out of a +15, you have to hope it's not an impatient player.

Yes and no. A 3200 player probably still wants to get their vault, if they haven't pushed any higher keys in that week. I mean they probably won't apply to a +15 if they don't need it, right?

But I kinda agree. Some of the worst experiences I've had was when inviting very high score players to relatively low keys. Especially (but not limited to) high rio tanks, who insist on doing MDI pulls and skips in a pug +15 with 2000s, and then get mad when people pull mobs or don't kill the pulls fast enough and they run out of CDs and die. I also tend to avoid that if possible, or if I invite them, talk to them (!) before the run and ask them about their route etc... Yeah some people get annoyed when you ask about route in a +15, because honestly it's totally unnecessary, but it helps to get the entire party on the same page about what to expect from the run.

[Twdft]

Things like that is why some people encounter WAY less toxicity than others. If you actually talk and communicate before a key (and that even includes something like saying "hi"), people will be way more open and friendlier.

If the group is full, I arrived at the dungeon and nobody could be bothered to return my greeting I simply leave (before the key started of course). I don't expect to trade life stories but if noone has the time to even type 2 letters in chat before a dungeon I lose interest in doing it.

[Asrialol]

1-14 keys are usually non-toxic and fine. 15 keys are usually toxic af. 20+ keys are usually non-toxic, though people do tend do get upset if something fails - but not near the toxicity you see in 15 keys.

[Ludek]

Is pugging M+ as hard as people tend to complain it is? No.

Is it as shitty as they complain it is? Kinda.

This season I pugged my way to KSM once they uncapped valor, because I had nothing better to do (my guild is pretty much dead since middle of S2, and I cannot find fun in raids anymore to be bothered to search for a new one). Last time I got KSM was season 1 of BFA, afterwards I was just running 1-2 dungs a week for the weekly chest/vault.

It took me around 1,5 month of casually running ~10 dungeons a week to get the achievement, PUG-s only, mix of joining groups and doing my own key. 9 keys were failed due to quitters.

It wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, and I actually had some fun with it, albeit I can see why it still can be kinda shit to PUG.

PUG-s are PUG-s, we all know it's a lottery - you can have great group, throwing jokes around while getting +3 time, and next run you will have a rage quitter because you did not do "MDI Wo skip on the 9th and 11th pack of thrash while pulling 17th to the side for optimal AOE" - we've all been there, done that.

Problem with PUG-s in M+ is that, M+ is the most punishing end game activity if you fail - in PVP you don't go down a rating bracket just from 1 lost game, in raids if your group disbands on the 4th boss, you still have the ID and you can continue trying to progress from that boss onwards.

While im M+ if the group fails best case scenario you need to redo the key on that level, but in case of a quit - you first need to do an extra lower dungeon just to have another go on the level you failed last time.

This kind of risk makes people pick and choose the best possible players from the lfg tool (highest rating, meta specs), also it discourages some from using their key as there is potential to ruin it.

On top of that, the timer generally can make people stressed out, which does not help in an environment where you need to coordinate stuff, and you don't have voice chat, so the tensions are getting high.

There are possible solutions to ease the problem, yet none of them is a perfect one.
Blizz could try punish the quiters, but then it ends out in even more meta groups.
Removing the timer (or making it bragging rights only) would potentially either trivialize the dungeons, or make people burn themselves out with pushing a key outside of their gear/skill range (but tbh, if they want to burn themselves, let them).
Personally I would just remove the key downgrading on fail due to not completing the dung - then the stakes would be the same as in raids - your group was not able to complete the dungeon, you can try with another one.