Retribution Dragonflight Talents

[Kalisandra]

It will depend a lot on tuning. Don't forget the class tree has a talent that gives strength for using Crusader Strike so at the very least it doesn't feel as bad hitting that. Empyrean power could very well end up being useless on single target, We don't know yet. I just think the placement is weird.

If Empyrean Power is useless ST, that means Divine Storm is very weak compared to TV/FV and our spenders, and that means we'll be using our ST rotation when fighting two targets. Won't that be fun?

Alternately, it means that they nerfed both spenders very hard and filled in all the GCD holes. At that point spenders will just be another button to hit when it's lit up in the priority list. I don't see them doing that.

[Eon Drache]

If Empyrean Power is useless ST, that means Divine Storm is very weak compared to TV/FV and our spenders, and that means we'll be using our ST rotation when fighting two targets. Won't that be fun?

Alternately, it means that they nerfed both spenders very hard and filled in all the GCD holes. At that point spenders will just be another button to hit when it's lit up in the priority list. I don't see them doing that.

k not useless but imo feels bad. I don't like the change because of the position in the tree.

[Kalisandra]

k not useless but imo feels bad. I don't like the change because of the position in the tree.

I agree that it feels bad, and that the former position was more sensible. What they could have done was leave Empyrean Power where it was, and make a choice node for Zeal/Fires of Justice where Zeal was if they really wanted that choice to be forced.

[Varaben]

k not useless but imo feels bad. I don't like the change because of the position in the tree.

Positioning which they've said isn't OK in other specs, yet exists across the board on Paladin? Yeah the tree layout for Ret is a mess and they just made it MORE of a mess.

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I agree that it feels bad, and that the former position was more sensible. What they could have done was leave Empyrean Power where it was, and make a choice node for Zeal/Fires of Justice where Zeal was if they really wanted that choice to be forced.

Haven't they also done the opposite of what they're trying to do, reduce holy power overage? But now I can take Fires AND empyrean power? (Nevermind, Zeal is probably going to be better than Fires especially with the AoW nerf - we're gonna need all the haste we can get, so Fires of Justice is just a dead talent now, RIP).

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I mean it is in a bad place but this comment is silly in a game where feral exists lmao. Also ret has actually seen occasional world first and high level arena play.

That said, it does seem utterly pointless in DF unless it is overtuned

And it'll never be overtuned - remember Season 1 of shadowlands when we were one shotting with divine toll? The entire idea of ret being slow, but hard hitting when they do connect is just flawed. Either we never actually get to our target because our mobility is trash or we do and we WRECK them, which gets later nerfed. What we end up with is not enough kill power nor mobility. Which is maybe sorta fine in 3v3 where you have someone snaring/rooting for you, but in 2s it means we're poopy. And we're back to this crappy consistent damage and less crappy but still crappy burst damage during CDs. It just doesn't work in real life.

[Kalisandra]

Haven't they also done the opposite of what they're trying to do, reduce holy power overage? But now I can take Fires AND empyrean power? (Nevermind, Zeal is probably going to be better than Fires especially with the AoW nerf - we're gonna need all the haste we can get, so Fires of Justice is just a dead talent now, RIP).

My maths, which might be wrong, suggests that Empyrean Power was worth almost twice Fires, single target, and about x2.5 as much AoE. Zeal's trickier to calculate, but it's just lost some value with the Art of War nerf. Even so, unless you avoid BoJ talents, it's got a lot of value because hasted auto-attacks mean more AoW procs.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Certainly not in pvp, it just doesn't have the toolkit. At this point anyone who wants to be serious as melee has just learned to play warrior/rogue I imagine

[Varaben]

My maths, which might be wrong, suggests that Empyrean Power was worth almost twice Fires, single target, and about x2.5 as much AoE. Zeal's trickier to calculate, but it's just lost some value with the Art of War nerf. Even so, unless you avoid BoJ talents, it's got a lot of value because hasted auto-attacks mean more AoW procs.

yeah Zeal is going to be far and away better than fires of justice I would assume, it really doesn't make sense to make us choose between the two. There's too much synergy between Zeal and Blade of Wrath. Even with baseline Art of War, Zeal is probably still the better choice. Fires does synergize well with Empyrean Power, but at this point we're debating two talents that were already a choice in Shadowlands. I think I just had high hopes that the new talent trees would provide new and interesting choices, brand new spells, potentially some existing talents going baseline, etc. And that didn't really happen to any significant extent. Holy has gotten a little bit of attention but the other two are just meh right now.

[Donkeywing]

The nerf to ret not getting spellwarding anyway is so big I could hardly believe it. I didnt believe the 50% nerf to art of war either, I thought regular autoattack proc would be buffed to compensate. These kind of nerfs are ridiculous and over the top. They're fine letting warlocks get away with the most insane, unbalanced m+ dmg I have ever seen for a whole season. Infact, they even gave them a 5% flat buff to push them on, but as soon as ret is looking to be somewhat good or usefull they nerf it into the abyss. As if ret is a stackable spec.

[Stormdash]

So, am I wrong or does Exorcism's return amount to being a nostalgia talent that doesn't really add any real value to a build without being an HP gen? There isn't enough going on that usually forces you to DPS from max range. It's a shame, I liked Exorcism, I preferred it to ever having gotten Blade of Justice. Wish maybe they had made Exorcism something that replaces Blade of Justice but with a different effect.

[Eon Drache]

So, am I wrong or does Exorcism's return amount to being a nostalgia talent that doesn't really add any real value to a build without being an HP gen? There isn't enough going on that usually forces you to DPS from max range. It's a shame, I liked Exorcism, I preferred it to ever having gotten Blade of Justice. Wish maybe they had made Exorcism something that replaces Blade of Justice but with a different effect.

Depending on the tuning it could actually be a strong aoe talent.

[Ramiell]

I've not played WoW in 2-3 years. The new talent stuff for all classes does look interesting though.

Seems like an opportunity to add in the Shockadin playstyle flavor was missed with the Retribution tree. Also, one of the Divine Steed nodes making your steed stick around for a few seconds and do something (bite, kick, snare, etc) would be cool.

[ipoststuff]

So, am I wrong or does Exorcism's return amount to being a nostalgia talent that doesn't really add any real value to a build without being an HP gen? There isn't enough going on that usually forces you to DPS from max range. It's a shame, I liked Exorcism, I preferred it to ever having gotten Blade of Justice. Wish maybe they had made Exorcism something that replaces Blade of Justice but with a different effect.

Exorcism does around the same damage as Final Verdict on single target. It doesn't require any HP, it's ranged and it can cleave. I don't understand the "if it doesn't generate HP it's useless".

[Kalisandra]

Depending on the tuning it could actually be a strong aoe talent.

Exorcism will have to be tuned up a LOT to give good damage, given its long CD. Oh, and it was target capped today.

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Exorcism does around the same damage as Final Verdict on single target. It doesn't require any HP, it's ranged and it can cleave. I don't understand the "if it doesn't generate HP it's useless".

Unless the numbers have been changed just now, it does half unless the target is in Cons, in which case it about the same - but on a 20s CD. This is less than HoW, Judgement, or BoJ once you count the value of their Holy Power, and on a much longer CD (that doesn't scale with Haste). Thus it's a low-priority button.

[Eon Drache]

Exorcism will have to be tuned up a LOT to give good damage, given its long CD. Oh, and it was target capped today.

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Ew, they cap it at 5? Isn't that what's wrong with Radiant Decree in aoe? Divine Storm is uncapped but Radiant Decree is 5 targets before tapering off?

[Kalisandra]

Divine Storm is capped in SF, and remains capped in DF (5 targets). Tempest of the Lightbringer is uncapped, and it's sad that this is it's primary drawcard, given its low damage.

Exorcism is capped at 7 target, Radiant Decree at 5. Wake of Ashes does not specify a cap (it says 'all enemies', but most capped attacks do that, so that's not helpful), just that it does reduced damage on secondary targets.

Consecration isn't capped, so with Divinity, etc., for large pulls could well be our best attack - assuming the mobs stay in it, of course. I feel like it's 2006 again.

[Eon Drache]

Divine Storm is capped in SF, and remains capped in DF (5 targets). Tempest of the Lightbringer is uncapped, and it's sad that this is it's primary drawcard, given its low damage.

Exorcism is capped at 7 target, Radiant Decree at 5. Wake of Ashes does not specify a cap (it says 'all enemies', but most capped attacks do that, so that's not helpful), just that it does reduced damage on secondary targets.

Consecration isn't capped, so with Divinity, etc., for large pulls could well be our best attack - assuming the mobs stay in it, of course. I feel like it's 2006 again.

Patch 9.1.5 removed the cap on Divine Storm. It does taper off. Maybe Radiant Decree is hard capped at 5 though?

[ipoststuff]

Exorcism will have to be tuned up a LOT to give good damage, given its long CD. Oh, and it was target capped today.

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Unless the numbers have been changed just now, it does half unless the target is in Cons, in which case it about the same - but on a 20s CD. This is less than HoW, Judgement, or BoJ once you count the value of their Holy Power, and on a much longer CD (that doesn't scale with Haste). Thus it's a low-priority button.

Exorcism dot applies on the primary target regardless of consecration.

[Kalisandra]

Exorcism dot applies on the primary target regardless of consecration.

So it does. My mistake.

[Donkeywing]

Consecration isn't capped, so with Divinity, etc., for large pulls could well be our best attack - assuming the mobs stay in it, of course. I feel like it's 2006 again.

Conc being strong is a good thing, we're already using it without buffs in downtime currently so having a conc juiced up is very powerfull and can be seen as a massive buff if anything, in my opinion.

It should be noted that ret can pick the talent consecrated ground (not in a perfect position but you can choose it), which increases conc's size by 15% but most importantly gives a 50% slow to all the mobs in it. Anyone who's played prot paladin for long enough will know that this talent came in usefull in various situations (spitefull, kiting etc), essentially giving ret paladins additional access to strong utility for tanks with minimal effort, while also increasing the dps of conc if the pack is indeed moved*. Considering this, ret paladins might now have a very good role in m+ relieving huge pressure on tanks when considering they also bring devo aura, improved sacrifice, potential judgement of light ticks, on top of other tools like freedom or lay.


*The conc tick rate is very fast, so increasing its size by 15% and slowing mobs by 50% will definitely result in far more ticks therefore the talent will practically provide a lot of dmg not seen on the dmg meter.

[Kalisandra]

Conc being strong is a good thing, we're already using it without buffs in downtime currently so having a conc juiced up is very powerfull and can be seen as a massive buff if anything, in my opinion.

It should be noted that ret can pick the talent consecrated ground (not in a perfect position but you can choose it), which increases conc's size by 15% but most importantly gives a 50% slow to all the mobs in it. Anyone who's played prot paladin for long enough will know that this talent came in usefull in various situations (spitefull, kiting etc), essentially giving ret paladins additional access to strong utility for tanks with minimal effort, while also increasing the dps of conc if the pack is indeed moved*. Considering this, ret paladins might now have a very good role in m+ relieving huge pressure on tanks when considering they also bring devo aura, improved sacrifice, potential judgement of light ticks, on top of other tools like freedom or lay.


*The conc tick rate is very fast, so increasing its size by 15% and slowing mobs by 50% will definitely result in far more ticks therefore the talent will practically provide a lot of dmg not seen on the dmg meter.

+15% is one yard extra radius. As for slowing the mobs, that's something many PUG tanks won't thank you for because it'll make positioning them harder. And note that as it's tied to something that will be a major part of the AoE rotation (and like the ST one with the tier bonus and the AoJ proc Cons) it's not really something that we can control.

So it might be handy in a pre-made m+ group, but I'm not holding my breath when it comes to it suddenly making us wanted for m+ runs. All the other tools also come with Holy and Prot, and Holy also brings AM, while Prot brings Spellwarding (and that same snaring Cons, and as they'll be the tank they can play around it easily because they control its positioning). Of course, if Holy and Prot end up sucking, Ret might be the least-bad source of these things.