Retribution Dragonflight Talents

[Varaben]

Seeing how strikingly disproportionate class design was at what's arguably the biggest class rework since the removal of the original talent trees, it is a failure of management. Brian Holinka is responsible for what the combat/class team does, he should have been on top of these design updates. And if he fails to manage that, shouldn't Ion point it out? How can they release a Hunter update every week, yet several other classes and specs barely had any work done, let alone communication?!

Paladin feedback thread on Beta has had 700 player responses in the last 20 days with 0 Dev responses. Sad.

[Eon Drache]

Empyrean Power is not useless for single target fights. A +25% damage Divine Storm is a decent chunk of damage, and it doesn't have to be used immediately so we can avoid wasting a Judgement buff on it. Unless we're absolutely GCD locked it's a pretty decent talent in terms of ST damage, enough to bump Crusader Strike's priority up to possibly above BoJ (especially with Art of War's nerf) depending on what BoJ talents you take. In any AoE fight is very good. With its low proc rate it doesn't feel great, but it is powerful.

This is a problem with our builders doing so little damage and our spenders being so strong (relatively). It means that any talent that boosts Holy Power generation or outright grants use of a spender is very strong, and thus must have a low proc rate (Fire of Justice, Empyrean Power) or a major reduction in damage (Tempest of the Lightbringer) or it's just overpowering. About two-thirds of the value of hitting BoJ or Crusader strike comes from the Holy Power they generate, for example.

It will depend a lot on tuning. Don't forget the class tree has a talent that gives strength for using Crusader Strike so at the very least it doesn't feel as bad hitting that. Empyrean power could very well end up being useless on single target, We don't know yet. I just think the placement is weird.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

At this point you can't tell me that they just don't care about Rets. Like, I'm not buying that.
This is like targeted bullying at this point. There's no way they don't have a giant post-it hanging in there office, saying (in big letters) that Rets just must be fucked with.

It's too much incompetence at once. Too much attention on specific parts of an otherwise entirely neglected spec at once.

To look at Ret, the probably least brought spec, the probably least performing spec in history, and say that, after already taking away parts of their kit with the talent tree revamp, they've now decided to even take the one new utility toy away that might possibly perhaps eventually whocouldhaveknownaly given Ret an ever so slight chance at being relevant once or twice per tier. Someone very high up at Blizzard clearly hates Ret. There's no way this tree went live and Spellwarding were taken away if anyone at Blizzard gave even just the slightest fuck about this spec being able to find a group.

I mean it is in a bad place but this comment is silly in a game where feral exists lmao. Also ret has actually seen occasional world first and high level arena play.

That said, it does seem utterly pointless in DF unless it is overtuned

[Kalisandra]

It will depend a lot on tuning. Don't forget the class tree has a talent that gives strength for using Crusader Strike so at the very least it doesn't feel as bad hitting that. Empyrean power could very well end up being useless on single target, We don't know yet. I just think the placement is weird.

If Empyrean Power is useless ST, that means Divine Storm is very weak compared to TV/FV and our spenders, and that means we'll be using our ST rotation when fighting two targets. Won't that be fun?

Alternately, it means that they nerfed both spenders very hard and filled in all the GCD holes. At that point spenders will just be another button to hit when it's lit up in the priority list. I don't see them doing that.

[Eon Drache]

If Empyrean Power is useless ST, that means Divine Storm is very weak compared to TV/FV and our spenders, and that means we'll be using our ST rotation when fighting two targets. Won't that be fun?

Alternately, it means that they nerfed both spenders very hard and filled in all the GCD holes. At that point spenders will just be another button to hit when it's lit up in the priority list. I don't see them doing that.

k not useless but imo feels bad. I don't like the change because of the position in the tree.

[Kalisandra]

k not useless but imo feels bad. I don't like the change because of the position in the tree.

I agree that it feels bad, and that the former position was more sensible. What they could have done was leave Empyrean Power where it was, and make a choice node for Zeal/Fires of Justice where Zeal was if they really wanted that choice to be forced.

[Varaben]

k not useless but imo feels bad. I don't like the change because of the position in the tree.

Positioning which they've said isn't OK in other specs, yet exists across the board on Paladin? Yeah the tree layout for Ret is a mess and they just made it MORE of a mess.

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I agree that it feels bad, and that the former position was more sensible. What they could have done was leave Empyrean Power where it was, and make a choice node for Zeal/Fires of Justice where Zeal was if they really wanted that choice to be forced.

Haven't they also done the opposite of what they're trying to do, reduce holy power overage? But now I can take Fires AND empyrean power? (Nevermind, Zeal is probably going to be better than Fires especially with the AoW nerf - we're gonna need all the haste we can get, so Fires of Justice is just a dead talent now, RIP).

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I mean it is in a bad place but this comment is silly in a game where feral exists lmao. Also ret has actually seen occasional world first and high level arena play.

That said, it does seem utterly pointless in DF unless it is overtuned

And it'll never be overtuned - remember Season 1 of shadowlands when we were one shotting with divine toll? The entire idea of ret being slow, but hard hitting when they do connect is just flawed. Either we never actually get to our target because our mobility is trash or we do and we WRECK them, which gets later nerfed. What we end up with is not enough kill power nor mobility. Which is maybe sorta fine in 3v3 where you have someone snaring/rooting for you, but in 2s it means we're poopy. And we're back to this crappy consistent damage and less crappy but still crappy burst damage during CDs. It just doesn't work in real life.

[Kalisandra]

Haven't they also done the opposite of what they're trying to do, reduce holy power overage? But now I can take Fires AND empyrean power? (Nevermind, Zeal is probably going to be better than Fires especially with the AoW nerf - we're gonna need all the haste we can get, so Fires of Justice is just a dead talent now, RIP).

My maths, which might be wrong, suggests that Empyrean Power was worth almost twice Fires, single target, and about x2.5 as much AoE. Zeal's trickier to calculate, but it's just lost some value with the Art of War nerf. Even so, unless you avoid BoJ talents, it's got a lot of value because hasted auto-attacks mean more AoW procs.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Certainly not in pvp, it just doesn't have the toolkit. At this point anyone who wants to be serious as melee has just learned to play warrior/rogue I imagine

[Varaben]

My maths, which might be wrong, suggests that Empyrean Power was worth almost twice Fires, single target, and about x2.5 as much AoE. Zeal's trickier to calculate, but it's just lost some value with the Art of War nerf. Even so, unless you avoid BoJ talents, it's got a lot of value because hasted auto-attacks mean more AoW procs.

yeah Zeal is going to be far and away better than fires of justice I would assume, it really doesn't make sense to make us choose between the two. There's too much synergy between Zeal and Blade of Wrath. Even with baseline Art of War, Zeal is probably still the better choice. Fires does synergize well with Empyrean Power, but at this point we're debating two talents that were already a choice in Shadowlands. I think I just had high hopes that the new talent trees would provide new and interesting choices, brand new spells, potentially some existing talents going baseline, etc. And that didn't really happen to any significant extent. Holy has gotten a little bit of attention but the other two are just meh right now.

[Donkeywing]

The nerf to ret not getting spellwarding anyway is so big I could hardly believe it. I didnt believe the 50% nerf to art of war either, I thought regular autoattack proc would be buffed to compensate. These kind of nerfs are ridiculous and over the top. They're fine letting warlocks get away with the most insane, unbalanced m+ dmg I have ever seen for a whole season. Infact, they even gave them a 5% flat buff to push them on, but as soon as ret is looking to be somewhat good or usefull they nerf it into the abyss. As if ret is a stackable spec.

[Stormdash]

So, am I wrong or does Exorcism's return amount to being a nostalgia talent that doesn't really add any real value to a build without being an HP gen? There isn't enough going on that usually forces you to DPS from max range. It's a shame, I liked Exorcism, I preferred it to ever having gotten Blade of Justice. Wish maybe they had made Exorcism something that replaces Blade of Justice but with a different effect.

[Eon Drache]

So, am I wrong or does Exorcism's return amount to being a nostalgia talent that doesn't really add any real value to a build without being an HP gen? There isn't enough going on that usually forces you to DPS from max range. It's a shame, I liked Exorcism, I preferred it to ever having gotten Blade of Justice. Wish maybe they had made Exorcism something that replaces Blade of Justice but with a different effect.

Depending on the tuning it could actually be a strong aoe talent.

[Ramiell]

I've not played WoW in 2-3 years. The new talent stuff for all classes does look interesting though.

Seems like an opportunity to add in the Shockadin playstyle flavor was missed with the Retribution tree. Also, one of the Divine Steed nodes making your steed stick around for a few seconds and do something (bite, kick, snare, etc) would be cool.

[ipoststuff]

So, am I wrong or does Exorcism's return amount to being a nostalgia talent that doesn't really add any real value to a build without being an HP gen? There isn't enough going on that usually forces you to DPS from max range. It's a shame, I liked Exorcism, I preferred it to ever having gotten Blade of Justice. Wish maybe they had made Exorcism something that replaces Blade of Justice but with a different effect.

Exorcism does around the same damage as Final Verdict on single target. It doesn't require any HP, it's ranged and it can cleave. I don't understand the "if it doesn't generate HP it's useless".

[Kalisandra]

Depending on the tuning it could actually be a strong aoe talent.

Exorcism will have to be tuned up a LOT to give good damage, given its long CD. Oh, and it was target capped today.

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Exorcism does around the same damage as Final Verdict on single target. It doesn't require any HP, it's ranged and it can cleave. I don't understand the "if it doesn't generate HP it's useless".

Unless the numbers have been changed just now, it does half unless the target is in Cons, in which case it about the same - but on a 20s CD. This is less than HoW, Judgement, or BoJ once you count the value of their Holy Power, and on a much longer CD (that doesn't scale with Haste). Thus it's a low-priority button.

[Eon Drache]

Exorcism will have to be tuned up a LOT to give good damage, given its long CD. Oh, and it was target capped today.

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Ew, they cap it at 5? Isn't that what's wrong with Radiant Decree in aoe? Divine Storm is uncapped but Radiant Decree is 5 targets before tapering off?

[Kalisandra]

Divine Storm is capped in SF, and remains capped in DF (5 targets). Tempest of the Lightbringer is uncapped, and it's sad that this is it's primary drawcard, given its low damage.

Exorcism is capped at 7 target, Radiant Decree at 5. Wake of Ashes does not specify a cap (it says 'all enemies', but most capped attacks do that, so that's not helpful), just that it does reduced damage on secondary targets.

Consecration isn't capped, so with Divinity, etc., for large pulls could well be our best attack - assuming the mobs stay in it, of course. I feel like it's 2006 again.

[Eon Drache]

Divine Storm is capped in SF, and remains capped in DF (5 targets). Tempest of the Lightbringer is uncapped, and it's sad that this is it's primary drawcard, given its low damage.

Exorcism is capped at 7 target, Radiant Decree at 5. Wake of Ashes does not specify a cap (it says 'all enemies', but most capped attacks do that, so that's not helpful), just that it does reduced damage on secondary targets.

Consecration isn't capped, so with Divinity, etc., for large pulls could well be our best attack - assuming the mobs stay in it, of course. I feel like it's 2006 again.

Patch 9.1.5 removed the cap on Divine Storm. It does taper off. Maybe Radiant Decree is hard capped at 5 though?

[ipoststuff]

Exorcism will have to be tuned up a LOT to give good damage, given its long CD. Oh, and it was target capped today.

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Unless the numbers have been changed just now, it does half unless the target is in Cons, in which case it about the same - but on a 20s CD. This is less than HoW, Judgement, or BoJ once you count the value of their Holy Power, and on a much longer CD (that doesn't scale with Haste). Thus it's a low-priority button.

Exorcism dot applies on the primary target regardless of consecration.