Retribution Dragonflight Talents

[Donkeywing]

Perhaps. I would say in pugs kiting is more usual however, but I know slow isnt always prefered. I think the utility options for m+ are getting strong now, there are very few dps specs in the game that can slow by 50% so easily and consistently (also when you keep wake slow in mind), we don't lose much by doing it. There are few dps specs able to relieve this much pressure on a tank. That can be very valuable in some dungs/affixes and is valuable in general. Yeah sure we don't sync up too well with holy or prot, but lucky for us most tanks can't play prot paladin anyway.

[Grapemask]

At this point you can't tell me that they just don't care about Rets. Like, I'm not buying that.
This is like targeted bullying at this point. There's no way they don't have a giant post-it hanging in there office, saying (in big letters) that Rets just must be fucked with.

I've been playing ret since the game launched and I've always felt it's very clear that Blizzard has a weird bias against paladins doing DPS in general. Yeah yeah, other classes also have issues, but we're talking about ret here.

What's always bugged me is that the paladin toolkit isn't allowed to be both broad and deep, despite the fact that that's basically the idea of the class. It's always been "you're allowed to do one thing very well and nothing else at all, or you can do a lot of things but they're all going to suck." The result of both is a class that isn't terribly viable. You can have a sharp knife but you can't pick it up, or you can have fifty knives but none of them can cut a steak, and neither one of those options is worthwhile at the dinner table. But then you look at the other side and you see plenty of examples of classes that are allowed to do many things well.

These issues are then compounded by the eternal fanboys who will insist that the class is fine because of that very sharp knife, regardless of the issues with it. Blizzard loves to lean on these guys. I got tired of interacting with the community somewhere around the Ghostcrawler days, because Greg Street really perfected the PR technique of giving a megaphone to the fans who cheered on the one good thing paladins could do while entirely ignoring the players who rightfully called out the issues with the bigger picture. MMO-C would fill entire pages with blue quotes responding to the community cheers about how great ret paladins are now that they can freedom out of a stun, and not a single post highlighting that it's still better to bring a class that can actually do something useful when they're not stunned.

It's especially frustrating to see the same mistakes made over and over. It's like a cycle of Blizzard saying "oopsy doops, we recognize we did X wrong, so we're doing Y." "Oopsy doops, we recognize we did Y wrong, we're going to do X," cycling through the same solutions every other expansion while also watering them down with each iteration. That's more of a complaint for the game as a whole, but through the lens of the paladin's never-evolving situation it's just more aggravating.

[Tyris Flare]

I've been playing ret since the game launched and I've always felt it's very clear that Blizzard has a weird bias against paladins doing DPS in general. Yeah yeah, other classes also have issues, but we're talking about ret here.

What's always bugged me is that the paladin toolkit isn't allowed to be both broad and deep, despite the fact that that's basically the idea of the class. It's always been "you're allowed to do one thing very well and nothing else at all, or you can do a lot of things but they're all going to suck." The result of both is a class that isn't terribly viable. You can have a sharp knife but you can't pick it up, or you can have fifty knives but none of them can cut a steak, and neither one of those options is worthwhile at the dinner table. But then you look at the other side and you see plenty of examples of classes that are allowed to do many things well.

These issues are then compounded by the eternal fanboys who will insist that the class is fine because of that very sharp knife, regardless of the issues with it. Blizzard loves to lean on these guys. I got tired of interacting with the community somewhere around the Ghostcrawler days, because Greg Street really perfected the PR technique of giving a megaphone to the fans who cheered on the one good thing paladins could do while entirely ignoring the players who rightfully called out the issues with the bigger picture. MMO-C would fill entire pages with blue quotes responding to the community cheers about how great ret paladins are now that they can freedom out of a stun, and not a single post highlighting that it's still better to bring a class that can actually do something useful when they're not stunned.

It's especially frustrating to see the same mistakes made over and over. It's like a cycle of Blizzard saying "oopsy doops, we recognize we did X wrong, so we're doing Y." "Oopsy doops, we recognize we did Y wrong, we're going to do X," cycling through the same solutions every other expansion while also watering them down with each iteration. That's more of a complaint for the game as a whole, but through the lens of the paladin's never-evolving situation it's just more aggravating.

This is some really cringe victim mentality and conspiratorial thinking. There is no "class bias" in the way people think. Developers aren't sitting around with a raging hard-on waiting to fuck over the specs they don't like.

Also, it is not like the same developers are making these choices every expansion. Few people who worked on this stuff in GCs era are even at the company anymore.

The reasons the spec tends to struggle are mostly structural, which I guess you are at least getting at near the end of this screed. There's very little institutional knowledge, because developers change all the time - that's a big reason mistakes get repeated. But there are also way too many specs in this game and it's not possible to make them all good, since good is relative to what other specs can do.

That, combined with the sacred cow mentality inherent in all long-running products (meaning, you can't change too dramatically or there will be a massive backlash from existing fans) means design options are pretty limited.

[Grapemask]

This is some really cringe victim mentality and conspiratorial thinking.

Let's not be that guy with strawmen and silliness.

Also, it is not like the same developers are making these choices every expansion. Few people who worked on this stuff in GCs era are even at the company anymore.

Well yeah, I've assumed this has been WoW's problem for the last 15 years or so. It's a whole new crowd trying to figure out what to do with the game every few years, with none of these lessons carrying forward. Every expansion gets a surge of blog posts of "we think we did X wrong, we think Y is the fix," and they're almost identical to the surge of blog posts two expansions back. We think choices are interesting, we don't think choices are useful when you just go to the internet to make the choice for you, we think choices are so neat we're going to give you a bizarre hex grid of dozens of them, and I'm going to anxiously await next expansion's return to "you just went to the internet to tell you which choices to make" and another pairing down.

[Tyris Flare]

That could definitely happen if it doesn't work out. I think it's something of an experiment to start a new era of the game (probably 3 expansions worth) but it could get short-circuited.

I dont think it will, though, if only because this stuff is far easier to change and balance than the borrowed power systems of the Legion-SL era

[Varaben]

This is some really cringe victim mentality and conspiratorial thinking. There is no "class bias" in the way people think. Developers aren't sitting around with a raging hard-on waiting to fuck over the specs they don't like.

Also, it is not like the same developers are making these choices every expansion. Few people who worked on this stuff in GCs era are even at the company anymore.

The reasons the spec tends to struggle are mostly structural, which I guess you are at least getting at near the end of this screed. There's very little institutional knowledge, because developers change all the time - that's a big reason mistakes get repeated. But there are also way too many specs in this game and it's not possible to make them all good, since good is relative to what other specs can do.

That, combined with the sacred cow mentality inherent in all long-running products (meaning, you can't change too dramatically or there will be a massive backlash from existing fans) means design options are pretty limited.

I hear what you're saying, but what's hard to grasp is why some melee classes like rogues, monks, ferals, warriors and to a lesser extent DKs have very strong mobility options and Ret has next to nothing. Steed doesn't last long enough and doesn't surpress snares/slows and while freedom is pretty strong, it requires a pvp talent to actually be usable in rated PVP. And while Divine Shield used to be an extremely strong cooldown, priests and warriors can just delete it and in 3v3 your chances of seeing a priest OR a warrior on the opposite team are extremely high.

My point is, Ret Paladin has some serious weaknesses that don't seem to exist in other classes/specs. It's consistently poorly represented in M+ and Raids in addition to top ladder PVP. I agree with the sacred cow stuff and you're probably right that spec bias doesn't exist and all of that. But the fact is that Ret has had next to no attention in Dragonflight Beta, and while many other specs are seeing an evolution of their rotation, Ret is basically moving forward with the same spec it had in Season 4, only our big procs have been nerfed (necro hammer, blade of wrath and ashes to dust), slowing down the spec and compensating with nothing. We have the same mobility we had in Dragonflight, yet Mages and warriors have infinite mobility. So it does seem like some kind of bias.

I'll stop ranting, but because Ret paladins only have one option when it comes to a DPS spec on their class, if we're under-tuned or not performing well, we're forced to either tank/heal or play a different class. Whereas Rogues/Mages/Hunters/Warlocks will always have a DPS spec that's competitive. So by comparison, Ret is a VERY risky spec to main and my guess is that's why people are so frustrated with it. I'm in the camp of "I've played paladin forever and I don't want to reroll," but at some point, Ret is just a bad spec to main.

[Tyris Flare]

I hear what you're saying, but what's hard to grasp is why some melee classes like rogues, monks, ferals, warriors and to a lesser extent DKs have very strong mobility options and Ret has next to nothing. Steed doesn't last long enough and doesn't surpress snares/slows and while freedom is pretty strong, it requires a pvp talent to actually be usable in rated PVP. And while Divine Shield used to be an extremely strong cooldown, priests and warriors can just delete it and in 3v3 your chances of seeing a priest OR a warrior on the opposite team are extremely high.

My point is, Ret Paladin has some serious weaknesses that don't seem to exist in other classes/specs. It's consistently poorly represented in M+ and Raids in addition to top ladder PVP. I agree with the sacred cow stuff and you're probably right that spec bias doesn't exist and all of that. But the fact is that Ret has had next to no attention in Dragonflight Beta, and while many other specs are seeing an evolution of their rotation, Ret is basically moving forward with the same spec it had in Season 4, only our big procs have been nerfed (necro hammer, blade of wrath and ashes to dust), slowing down the spec and compensating with nothing. We have the same mobility we had in Dragonflight, yet Mages and warriors have infinite mobility. So it does seem like some kind of bias.

I'll stop ranting, but because Ret paladins only have one option when it comes to a DPS spec on their class, if we're under-tuned or not performing well, we're forced to either tank/heal or play a different class. Whereas Rogues/Mages/Hunters/Warlocks will always have a DPS spec that's competitive. So by comparison, Ret is a VERY risky spec to main and my guess is that's why people are so frustrated with it. I'm in the camp of "I've played paladin forever and I don't want to reroll," but at some point, Ret is just a bad spec to main.

To be clear, I don't disagree that ret is bad, only with the idea that it is somehow left that way intentionally by biased devs or whatever. I think the explanations are more innocuous, like they don't really know what to do with it while being hemmed in by sacred cows in design + the reality that there are a million melee specs in this game.

It also suffers from prot and holy existing and it being kind of "unfair" in a 20 person raid to have more than 1 of a class, so ret is probably always going to get the short end of the design stick. Holy is basically a default spot in every raid forever thanks to aura mastery etc, so ret is kind of hosed.

And at this point, 18 years into the game, every serious melee player has already rerolled to a more reliable class like rogue.

[Mardux]

Divine Storm is capped in SF, and remains capped in DF (5 targets). Tempest of the Lightbringer is uncapped, and it's sad that this is it's primary drawcard, given its low damage.

Exorcism is capped at 7 target, Radiant Decree at 5. Wake of Ashes does not specify a cap (it says 'all enemies', but most capped attacks do that, so that's not helpful), just that it does reduced damage on secondary targets.

Consecration isn't capped, so with Divinity, etc., for large pulls could well be our best attack - assuming the mobs stay in it, of course. I feel like it's 2006 again.

False. DS is not capped. Wake uses sqrt. Consec is soft capped at 20.

[Varaben]

To be clear, I don't disagree that ret is bad, only with the idea that it is somehow left that way intentionally by biased devs or whatever. I think the explanations are more innocuous, like they don't really know what to do with it while being hemmed in by sacred cows in design + the reality that there are a million melee specs in this game.

It also suffers from prot and holy existing and it being kind of "unfair" in a 20 person raid to have more than 1 of a class, so ret is probably always going to get the short end of the design stick. Holy is basically a default spot in every raid forever thanks to aura mastery etc, so ret is kind of hosed.

And at this point, 18 years into the game, every serious melee player has already rerolled to a more reliable class like rogue.

Totally agree, back in the day when Ret had some unique utility and raids were bigger, it made sense to include a Ret. The DPS has always been decent, it's not like it's ever terrible. I truly think that Divine Shield and Lay on Hands is what holds Ret back from being better. The devs have to be careful giving us too much damage or utility because these two are seen as trump cards. IMO, I'd dump both for actual mobility or a decent defensive cooldown. Or a gap closer. But I think they're too "iconic" to ever be taken away and it limits the design space for Ret.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Max talked some about this stuff in his SL tier video, pretty much echoing what everyone has said from a pve perspective. Unless the spec is overtuned, it has no place anywhere. Nothing unique, a mediocre damage profile, and a unique buff covered by the other specs.

I liked the idea of it becoming a true healer hybrid, but it doesnt seem like that's every going to happen.

[Kalisandra]

Perhaps. I would say in pugs kiting is more usual however, but I know slow isnt always prefered. I think the utility options for m+ are getting strong now, there are very few dps specs in the game that can slow by 50% so easily and consistently (also when you keep wake slow in mind), we don't lose much by doing it. There are few dps specs able to relieve this much pressure on a tank. That can be very valuable in some dungs/affixes and is valuable in general. Yeah sure we don't sync up too well with holy or prot, but lucky for us most tanks can't play prot paladin anyway.

Thunderclap can be talented to a 40% snare (close enough to 50%) with a 12-yard radius (the snaring Cons only has 9-yard radius), and has a 6s CD, and those affected are slowed for 10s without any requirement for them to stay within a particular area (unlike Cons). So actually Warriors can be simply better at this. On the 'plus' side for Retribution, we have to buy this or some other even less useful (for PvE) talent to get to Relentless Inquisitor, so it's 'free' in a way.

So, if an AoE snare is sought after, we also need more than a Warrior can bring. The battle rez is something, but Warriors bring Battle Shout (+5% Attack Power to group) and can talent into an AoE stun, an AoE fear (that can also be talented into a cower), and can talent into Spear of Bastion for an amazing long-CD snare, and really good self-sustain, and good personal mobility (so better up-time, more reliable at getting onto a mob and kicking it, etc.). I'm not seeing a minor amount of (really expensive in terms of DPS) off-healing as cutting it.

[ipoststuff]

I understand the spec needed tuning but some of those last changes aren't good at all.

Ashes to Dust, went from 8.4% (24*0.35) down to 3.6% (18*0.2) chance to proc from auto attacks. That's 1 proc per 100 seconds before haste/zeal. A really bad talent.

Templar’s Vindication, went from 9% (30*0.30) down to 3% (15*0.20) damage increase on ONE ability for 2 points. Can't developers do even simple math?

[Kalisandra]

Apparently not. They've been tuning down damage (fine) and proc chances on things that power the rotation, and that's not fine at all.

[Varaben]

I understand the spec needed tuning but some of those last changes aren't good at all.

Ashes to Dust, went from 8.4% (24*0.35) down to 3.6% (18*0.2) chance to proc from auto attacks. That's 1 proc per 100 seconds before haste/zeal. A really bad talent.

Templar’s Vindication, went from 9% (30*0.30) down to 3% (15*0.20) damage increase on ONE ability for 2 points. Can't developers do even simple math?

Genuinely think Blizzard didn't even try with Ret Paladin in dragonflight and that's pretty sad. Some specs got a lot of attention, and for whatever reason Blizzard literally just dumped our tier sets, legendaries and current talents in SL into the tree and said F it, we're done and moved on. The recent nerfs are going to make Ret scale poorly as the expansion goes on and because there's no real unique utility (I don't think bubble, LOH, and battle res are enough), there's just no reason to take Ret in M+ or Raids, much less PVP where our mobility is still terrible (and other classes are getting MORE mobility).

[Becket]

Let´s be honest with ourselfs, Ret is a PvP spec, if its still work on PvP we gucci, but they nerfed everything so.... yeah, meh.

[Demsi]

Let´s be honest with ourselfs, Ret is a PvP spec, if its still work on PvP we gucci, but they nerfed everything so.... yeah, meh.

Ret has been terrible in pvp for most of the game's lifespan so i think we're fucked either way

[Donkeywing]

Thunderclap can be talented to a 40% snare (close enough to 50%) with a 12-yard radius (the snaring Cons only has 9-yard radius), and has a 6s CD, and those affected are slowed for 10s without any requirement for them to stay within a particular area (unlike Cons). So actually Warriors can be simply better at this. On the 'plus' side for Retribution, we have to buy this or some other even less useful (for PvE) talent to get to Relentless Inquisitor, so it's 'free' in a way.

So, if an AoE snare is sought after, we also need more than a Warrior can bring. The battle rez is something, but Warriors bring Battle Shout (+5% Attack Power to group) and can talent into an AoE stun, an AoE fear (that can also be talented into a cower), and can talent into Spear of Bastion for an amazing long-CD snare, and really good self-sustain, and good personal mobility (so better up-time, more reliable at getting onto a mob and kicking it, etc.). I'm not seeing a minor amount of (really expensive in terms of DPS) off-healing as cutting it.

You're right actually. After looking a bit closer at it, the warrior tree just owns the ret tree by a large margin. You didnt even mention rallying cry either. Yeah one could argue they cant get everything but every point they spend is good/usefull and the options are there. Also I'm not even sure if you even care about relentless inquisitor as much because the 2nd point only bumps it to 5 stacks; considering the conditional value of that it might not be worth it to invest points getting to it for m+, potentially, depends what you want to do I guess or how much haste you want.

- - - Updated - - -

This is some really cringe victim mentality and conspiratorial thinking. There is no "class bias" in the way people think. Developers aren't sitting around with a raging hard-on waiting to fuck over the specs they don't like.

I'm sorry but saying this after SL s3/s4 is so stupid. They had no problems nerfing lets say the feral tier set by 70%, but apparently warlocks doing double the dmg compared to other dps in m+ is completely fine and they actually gave it a 5% flat buff. The nerfs they ''tried'' weren't even close to being enough. They were also the best class in raid by far. After three pathetic rounds of nerfs they're still meta, just let that sink in to understand how truely brokenly OP they were. I was waiting every reset to see what they would do to warlock, the reality is they let it rein free; dominating all other dps specs by the largest margins ever recorded. Considering the ludicracy of what we witnessed in these seasons, there are only two options; they're either biased or entirely incompetent. Saying they're biased isn't unreasonable at all anymore. You're throwing around useless buzzwords while denying the reality of what has happened recently.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Never ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence? hehe

I think BFA fire mages were more OP than warlocks are right now, seems to be a last tier thing where someone wins the scaling lotto and 99% of the dev team has moved on to the expansion

[Kalisandra]

I'm sorry but saying this after SL s3/s4 is so stupid. They had no problems nerfing lets say the feral tier set by 70%, but apparently warlocks doing double the dmg compared to other dps in m+ is completely fine and they actually gave it a 5% flat buff. The nerfs they ''tried'' weren't even close to being enough. They were also the best class in raid by far. After three pathetic rounds of nerfs they're still meta, just let that sink in to understand how truely brokenly OP they were. I was waiting every reset to see what they would do to warlock, the reality is they let it rein free; dominating all other dps specs by the largest margins ever recorded. Considering the ludicracy of what we witnessed in these seasons, there are only two options; they're either biased or entirely incompetent. Saying they're biased isn't unreasonable at all anymore. You're throwing around useless buzzwords while denying the reality of what has happened recently.

They massively nerfed the Survival tier set as well, and they're still way up there, and weren't pulled back in. Our Survival Hunter does AoE damage that's as good or better than my Ret's best burst, at the same gear level, and they do it on every pull, not just the ones where they have all their CDs and good DP procs. Oh, and they have good ST damage from that same build and legendary set (better than I can get from AoE gear, that's for sure).

- - - Updated - - -

Never ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence? hehe

I think BFA fire mages were more OP than warlocks are right now, seems to be a last tier thing where someone wins the scaling lotto and 99% of the dev team has moved on to the expansion

Well, without a lot of re-buffing or a rebuild, we can be sure that Ret will not be willing the scaling lottery in DF (as ever).

[Jester Joe]

They massively nerfed the Survival tier set as well, and they're still way up there, and weren't pulled back in. Our Survival Hunter does AoE damage that's as good or better than my Ret's best burst, at the same gear level, and they do it on every pull, not just the ones where they have all their CDs and good DP procs. Oh, and they have good ST damage from that same build and legendary set (better than I can get from AoE gear, that's for sure).

To be fair, the biggest nerf Surv got was target capping the damage. Which to the average M+ player doesn't matter because no one's doing giant MDI pulls on live when there's no reason to.