Retribution Dragonflight Talents

[Arai]

I like the blade of justice animation, but all other points very reasonable.

I understand that. The simplest soluation would be to introduce a glyph to change the animation. You know the glyphs that are 100% cosmetic nowadays and meant for this purpose. Same thing with Templars Verdict animation which I liked the old one from MoP/WoD much more.

But they don't because of some stupid philosophy or design decision that doesn't make any sense like "players will be confused if the animation is different in pvp" or some crap. You know what confuses players, especially new ones, in PvP? That they get totally stomped in low rating because boosting is rampant in PvP and R1 Glads are farming and boosting 24/7.

[roboscorcher]

Pigs will fly when blizzard will make wow classes as interesting and unique as most DnD classes, they just lack too much imagination, sometimes it seem they don't even remember the thematic of the classes/spec they modify (Affliction the dot rot spec becoming a burst spec like destruction in BFA and it's burst came from a pet like demonology, WTF ??) or never bothered creating a clear identity for certains spec like Arm or Holy Paladin.

But to come back to ret paladin personally i think that as long that the class use holy power like a rogue use combo point it will feel bland, it would have been better that holy power serve to cast different seal/short duration aura that you can put on ally to buff them to go with the thematic that paladin are champions empowering their ally to the way to victory while also providing Healing, dps or keeping the enemy on you depending of the spec.

Amen, Holy Power is the problem. Everything is "putting lipstick on the pig" that is the builder-spender system. Sure, spenders in burst windows are nice, but the builders in non-burst windows do nothing. It seems like, to do any real damage with the spec, you need to do 10 minutes of meal prep for a 1-minute feast.

TBC ret has its flaws (no AoE for example) but what puts its seal-twisting above HoPo is the FLOW of the rotation. Even outside burst windows, you can do crazy damage. You only have to adapt to the speed of the swingtimers while prioritizing Crusader Strike. It's super basic, yet super rewarding.

No piano playing. No meal prep. Just reacting to the beat of combat. It's bliss.

[Varaben]

So I dont think ret's issues in pve are mobility related. They are utility related, as we've discussed: poor defensives, not a single S tier or even A tier utility button, mass competition among other melee specs, etc

Like long arm of the law isn't fixing any of that is all I'm getting at. And looking at the new talent trees, it seems like ret will lose some of it's B/C tier utility and be completely reliant upon damage tuning, putting it in an even worse place in DF unless it is numerically overtuned.

It's wild that BOP, sacrifice, LOH aren't even considered A or S tier utility. I feel like "utility inflation" hasn't affected Ret because our utility on paper looks OP (e.g. immunities and full heals). But in reality, the CDs are way too long in PVE, and whenever we use our "utility" of healing (that every other hybrid dps spec has as good or better) it's a massive DPS reduction in a lot of cases (selfless healer is really the only one, but it's not super useful). In some M+ situations I've had a healer die and been able to wog spam through to beat the boss. And while that's kinda neat and does sort of work (at lower keys anyway), and nobody really seems to care because every single other hybrid can do the same thing plus they have CC or other useful raid buffs/utility.

- - - Updated - - -

Amen, Holy Power is the problem. Everything is "putting lipstick on the pig" that is the builder-spender system. Sure, spenders in burst windows are nice, but the builders in non-burst windows do nothing. It seems like, to do any real damage with the spec, you need to do 10 minutes of meal prep for a 1-minute feast.

TBC ret has its flaws (no AoE for example) but what puts its seal-twisting above HoPo is the FLOW of the rotation. Even outside burst windows, you can do crazy damage. You only have to adapt to the speed of the swingtimers while prioritizing Crusader Strike. It's super basic, yet super rewarding.

No piano playing. No meal prep. Just reacting to the beat of combat. It's bliss.

What's annoying is that so many of the talents in DF are called SEALS, yet they're just passive talents. It's sort of a slap in the face (not to be too dramatic).

[Ashana Darkmoon]

It's wild that BOP, sacrifice, LOH aren't even considered A or S tier utility. I feel like "utility inflation" hasn't affected Ret because our utility on paper looks OP (e.g. immunities and full heals). But in reality, the CDs are way too long in PVE, and whenever we use our "utility" of healing (that every other hybrid dps spec has as good or better) it's a massive DPS reduction in a lot of cases (selfless healer is really the only one, but it's not super useful). In some M+ situations I've had a healer die and been able to wog spam through to beat the boss. And while that's kinda neat and does sort of work (at lower keys anyway), and nobody really seems to care because every single other hybrid can do the same thing plus they have CC or other useful raid buffs/utility.

Yeah I mean don't get me wrong, I love being able to save someone with LoH or even off-heal at times in a pinch, but in reality those things just aren't anywhere near as good as what other melee bring. Monks can burst to ungodly levels on an AE pack, paralyze mobs for skips, ring of peace (one of the best utility spells in the game!), provide a phys dmg increase, TOD important burst targets, etc. Even if Ret did the same damage (which it usually doesn't), I'd argue that RoP by itself is functionally more useful more often than anything ret has.

Rogues have like an entire bar of unique utility so there's no point in even doing a comparison; shroud or soothe by themselves are often more useful than ret's entire toolkit in practice.

DH imprison allows skips and is better than any ret CC, and the magic debuff is pretty highly coveted as well (though not as important for a group of 5 compared to 20).

Ret is probably in a better position than warriors and maybe DKs, but if you look at the historical tier list for classes someone posted in the Raids area, it's pretty obvious that all the plate DPS classes are essentially just C tier or lower all the time unless their damage is wildly overtuned in a particular patch. There are generally less survivable (despite wearing plate!) and bring less utility while also typically doing less damage.

E: to the previous poster, since i know we very much disagree on seals lol, all I'll say is that holy power has nothing to do with any of the issues I described above.

[Kalisandra]

It's wild that BOP, sacrifice, LOH aren't even considered A or S tier utility. I feel like "utility inflation" hasn't affected Ret because our utility on paper looks OP (e.g. immunities and full heals). But in reality, the CDs are way too long in PVE, and whenever we use our "utility" of healing (that every other hybrid dps spec has as good or better) it's a massive DPS reduction in a lot of cases (selfless healer is really the only one, but it's not super useful). In some M+ situations I've had a healer die and been able to wog spam through to beat the boss. And while that's kinda neat and does sort of work (at lower keys anyway), and nobody really seems to care because every single other hybrid can do the same thing plus they have CC or other useful raid buffs/utility.

Our normal m+ team has a warrior tank and a fury DPS, and the most common 'close shave' that's a near wipe sees everyone but them die, and then they kill the boss before the boss works through their considerable self-healing and survival CDs. My Ret can't keep up generally, and those times when I can, it's at the cost of all my damage output, so I'm only really contributing if a substantial amount of my healing is going into the tank, and honestly it's seldom the difference between a win and a wipe.

[JemiS]

Ret is probably in a better position than warriors and maybe DKs, but if you look at the historical tier list for classes someone posted in the Raids area, it's pretty obvious that all the plate DPS classes are essentially just C tier or lower all the time unless their damage is wildly overtuned in a particular patch. There are generally less survivable (despite wearing plate!) and bring less utility while also typically doing less damage.

IMO, this is one of the main issues. As the game has evolved, the differences in survivability by armor class have eroded, but "plate classes" are still held to a "tankier but less mobile" or "tankier but less utility" standard.

Ret used to genuinely be able to through on Righteous Fury, taunt, and tank in a pinch.

[Celvira]

Guys, a small win for Ret today - we got Divine Protection back![

[Eon Drache]

Not happy about wake of ashes being moved closer to the bottom of the tree

I thought it was just ashes to ashes that moved slightly and it moved up didn't it? Anyone got the tree for the newest build?

[Eon Drache]

it was swapped with divine toll

yeah, they were right next to each other in the previous build.

[ExiHext]

Guys, a small win for Ret today - we got Divine Protection back![

Yea, a Divine Protection that's even worse than SoV...great. It should be a defensive on top and not in exchange for SoV, ret is already squishy as hell.

I have to say, with those subpar paladin talent trees Blizzard killed any hype I had for DF. The amount of contempt they show by NOT giving THE original buff class any group buffs or group utility is incredible. There is (currently) not a single reason to bring a ret paladin to the group because let's face it: our damage will be mediocre as always, so it will be the usual rogue/mage/hunter and perhaps warrior/dh meta. Not to forget that new super mobile class coming with DF, that no doubt will be overpowered af.

Good luck applying to any group.

[ipoststuff]

Divine Protection has been added as a choice node with Shield of Vengeance. Cooldown increased to 2 minutes.

At 2 minutes cooldown SoV is better.

Justicar’s Vengeance now costs 3 Holy Power and deals 7% less damage.

I would be surprised if blizzard actually made JV somewhat useful. Even at 3 hp it's not good enough.

The talent locations of Ashes to Ashes and Divine Toll have been swapped.

That probably means Divine Resonance and Empyrean Endowment switched places as well. I think that's a good change. I think without Ringing Clarity, DT isn't that good.

Ret still needs better mobility and 5 man utility.

[Celvira]

Yea, a Divine Protection that's even worse than SoV...great. It should be a defensive on top and not in exchange for SoV, ret is already squishy as hell.

I have to say, with those subpar paladin talent trees Blizzard killed any hype I had for DF. The amount of contempt they show by NOT giving THE original buff class any group buffs or group utility is incredible. There is (currently) not a single reason to bring a ret paladin to the group because let's face it: our damage will be mediocre as always, so it will be the usual rogue/mage/hunter and perhaps warrior/dh meta. Not to forget that new super mobile class coming with DF, that no doubt will be overpowered af.

Good luck applying to any group.

Divine Protection is a much better defensive that SoV, which is seen by many rets as more of an offensive tool than a reliable defensive. A flat 20% damage reduction will mitigate a greater amount of damage than SoV, and allows us to survive mechanics that will kill us currently. Like, single DoT ticks in high keys and mythic raids can immediately pop SoV, and people have been begging Blizzard to bring back Divine Protection since Legion.

Also, stacking DP and SoV together has weird anti-synergy, as damage reduction would lower the amount of damage you take, thus potentially lowering the amount of DPS the spell can dish out if you fail to accrue enough damage to pop the shield before it expires. I'd rather they make Divine Protection a 60s CD like Holy instead.

And I'll agree on Ret needing a bit more raid utility to make us competitive, but Blessing on Spellwarding at least opens up more desirability by allowing us to counter mechanics by having access to 2 invulns every 5 minutes (alternating BoP/BoS on a per fight basis as needed). Granted, this is possible for any Paladin, but it still helps.

- - - Updated - - -

At 2 minutes cooldown SoV is better.

Outside of the DPS aspect, SoV is only better if you are absorbing a single, non-fatal hit. Otherwise, Divine Protection wins out if you are taking rapid, repeated instances of damage.

[Kalisandra]

Divine Protection is a much better defensive that SoV, which is seen by many rets as more of an offensive tool than a reliable defensive. A flat 20% damage reduction will mitigate a greater amount of damage than SoV, and allows us to survive mechanics that will kill us currently. Like, single DoT ticks in high keys and mythic raids can immediately pop SoV, and people have been begging Blizzard to bring back Divine Protection since Legion.

Not at a 2 min CD it's not.

SoV stops 30% of your health. For DP to prevent that much you have to take 150% of your health (because it prevents 20% of damage taken), and it has to be taking in an 8s window vs SoV's 15s window. Note that during that 8s window you have to also be getting healed for more than 20% of your maximum health, or you'll die anyway. DP with a 2 minute CD will only be worth taking for some very specific mechanics, otherwise SoV will actually be better.

Also, stacking DP and SoV together has weird anti-synergy, as damage reduction would lower the amount of damage you take, thus potentially lowering the amount of DPS the spell can dish out if you fail to accrue enough damage to pop the shield before it expires. I'd rather they make Divine Protection a 60s CD like Holy instead.

It needs to be a 1 min CD - at that point it's worth taking for the greater flexibility and because each use only needs to average taking 75% of max health (before reduction) for it to be worthwhile. SoV would still have its uses - fights with big hits every 2+ minutes, and fights where a bit of absorption plus some damage is attractive.

And I'll agree on Ret needing a bit more raid utility to make us competitive, but Blessing on Spellwarding at least opens up more desirability by allowing us to counter mechanics by having access to 2 invulns every 5 minutes (alternating BoP/BoS on a per fight basis as needed). Granted, this is possible for any Paladin, but it still helps.

Note that Spellwarding competes with a shorter CD on BoP, but Spellwarding has a shorter CD than BoP does even with the other talent. So unless there's some huge physical damage mechanic that needs to be cheesed, it'll always be Spellwarding for that node, assuming we take anything there at all (and honestly I expect most of the time we'll take Unbreakable Spirit if we're going for Seraphim/Sanctified Wrath).

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Nobody is ever going to pick a ret paladin in a group because of spellwarding

Without some new utility nothing is going to change about the (lack of) role in the meta

[ipoststuff]

We should get a combat resurrection. It was a paladin skill originally.

[Varaben]

Guys, a small win for Ret today - we got Divine Protection back![

It's a great move in the right direction, but I don't understand why it's in the ret tree. Put SOV and DP in the class tree instead.

Also I assume unbreakable spirit reduces the CD from 2m to 1.4m, so that isn't THAT bad, but a 20% wall on a 1.4min CD is sort of a bare minimum. I know you can't compare these abilities exactly, but rogues get elusiveness that reduces damage by 20% for 6s and it's on a FIFTEEN (15) second cooldown. Ours is 80 second CD for an extra 2 seconds for duration. I'd take feint any day of the week over SOV or DP.

It just seems odd to me that they want Ret to wear plate but also have paper defenses? It's so easy to remove bubble and this point that I'd rather make it a talent choice and let me take something else. Between spellwarding, bubble, and DP, it does look like our defenses against spells will be better overall, I just feel like 20% damage reduction skills shouldn't have such a long CD. Maybe improve unbreakable spirit to 40% or 50% reduction? Maybe make it a 2 pt talent for 25/50% so we'd have to really trade it for something good that deep, but in return we get a 1 min DP, 2.5m bubble, and a 5 min LOH (making it usable in arena).

[Ashana Darkmoon]

The plate thing just seems like a relic of a bygone era where armor actually mattered in PvE. But rogues have been the most survivable melee PvE class for as long as I can remember (along with the other leather-wearers, funnily!)

[Celvira]

It's a great move in the right direction, but I don't understand why it's in the ret tree. Put SOV and DP in the class tree instead.

Also I assume unbreakable spirit reduces the CD from 2m to 1.4m, so that isn't THAT bad, but a 20% wall on a 1.4min CD is sort of a bare minimum. I know you can't compare these abilities exactly, but rogues get elusiveness that reduces damage by 20% for 6s and it's on a FIFTEEN (15) second cooldown. Ours is 80 second CD for an extra 2 seconds for duration. I'd take feint any day of the week over SOV or DP.

It just seems odd to me that they want Ret to wear plate but also have paper defenses? It's so easy to remove bubble and this point that I'd rather make it a talent choice and let me take something else. Between spellwarding, bubble, and DP, it does look like our defenses against spells will be better overall, I just feel like 20% damage reduction skills shouldn't have such a long CD. Maybe improve unbreakable spirit to 40% or 50% reduction? Maybe make it a 2 pt talent for 25/50% so we'd have to really trade it for something good that deep, but in return we get a 1 min DP, 2.5m bubble, and a 5 min LOH (making it usable in arena).

Like I said in my earlier post, I think we should continue to pester Blizzard with repeated feedback regarding lowering DP's base CD down to match Holy's 60 seconds.

This is very little reason why Holy and Ret, which both have access to the exact same CD, get treated differently for it. If Ret would be "unbalanced" because its 20% defensive is on a minute CD, then why isn't it considered unfair for Holy? In fact, Holy is far tankier than Ret due to them being a healer, so singling Ret out specifically over a shared ability seems conflicting considering the goal of the new talent system is to introduce flexibility in how a class can allocate their utility and playstyle.

Quick edit to state that the lower CD will even fit Blizz's current design philosophy of Ret being a slow (unfortunately), but hard to stop (also questionable in practice) crusader due to us having the choice to spec into a CD that recharges faster so we can survive 60s burst windows more reliably, or to use as a buffer to absorb attacks from range heavy comps while we "charge into battle on our Divine Steed" as we are being relentlessly kited.

[PaladinBash]

2m CD for Protection is awful. It just is. Make it 1m CD like Holy's and consider taking it off Unbreakable Spirit or leave it 2m CD and make Unbreakable Spirit a 50% reduction at 2/2. That way it's a 1m CD and bubble's more in line with other strong defensives at 2.5m CD.

It's just their design philosophy for Ret is just bullshit. "We want Ret to be slow and tanky" but then they refuse to give it anything to make it tanky and when forced into doing it, add needless things to make it awkward and bad. For instance, having to effectively take 3 talent points as it is now to get a 20% reduction on a 1.4m CD is shit. It just is. Die by the Sword, for instance, is 1 point and much better. Shammies are much faster and get their own 40% reduction on a similar timer with similar talent investments except it's stronger and lasts longer. Neither of those classes are supposed to be 'slow and tanky', to say nothing of DKs of course, who legitimately are just that.

The stupid horse takes 4pts to make good and while I'll argue simply taking 2pts makes it at least useable in PVE for most shit (1 to get it and another for 2 charges), it's pretty pathetic. Make it baseline last longer, leave in the 2-charge talent and replace the 2/2 increased duration with old PVP talent that lowers its CD instead. A lot of the issues in PVE with it isn't that it doesn't last long enough, it's that the CD is too long. I'd argue it should also have the damage reduction added to it but I already think riding a horse is fucking goofy looking as it is for mobility, never mind as a defensive and I don't think we're gonna get a 30s CD defensive any time soon on multiple charges. That's dreaming.

[Celvira]

I always thought Paladin's mobility, at least visually, should have leaned into their divine aesthetic. Instead of jumping on a horse, Paladin's could temporarily gain a pair of angelic wings (like they grow while Avenging Wrath is active) and either quickly dash in the direction they are facing (either one significant surge, or a few short dashes), or gain a new animation that functions as movement speed increase like our current Divine Steed or Rogue's sprint.

I know it wouldn't ultimately change much, but we'd look a hell of a lot more unique and better fulfill our classes fantasy of representing a divine warrior that is something greater than just "a heavily-armored knight on their horse". Bonus points if the wings functioned like DK skills and either removed CC or prevented us from being slowed for the duration.