Retribution Dragonflight Talents

[Celvira]

It's a great move in the right direction, but I don't understand why it's in the ret tree. Put SOV and DP in the class tree instead.

Also I assume unbreakable spirit reduces the CD from 2m to 1.4m, so that isn't THAT bad, but a 20% wall on a 1.4min CD is sort of a bare minimum. I know you can't compare these abilities exactly, but rogues get elusiveness that reduces damage by 20% for 6s and it's on a FIFTEEN (15) second cooldown. Ours is 80 second CD for an extra 2 seconds for duration. I'd take feint any day of the week over SOV or DP.

It just seems odd to me that they want Ret to wear plate but also have paper defenses? It's so easy to remove bubble and this point that I'd rather make it a talent choice and let me take something else. Between spellwarding, bubble, and DP, it does look like our defenses against spells will be better overall, I just feel like 20% damage reduction skills shouldn't have such a long CD. Maybe improve unbreakable spirit to 40% or 50% reduction? Maybe make it a 2 pt talent for 25/50% so we'd have to really trade it for something good that deep, but in return we get a 1 min DP, 2.5m bubble, and a 5 min LOH (making it usable in arena).

Like I said in my earlier post, I think we should continue to pester Blizzard with repeated feedback regarding lowering DP's base CD down to match Holy's 60 seconds.

This is very little reason why Holy and Ret, which both have access to the exact same CD, get treated differently for it. If Ret would be "unbalanced" because its 20% defensive is on a minute CD, then why isn't it considered unfair for Holy? In fact, Holy is far tankier than Ret due to them being a healer, so singling Ret out specifically over a shared ability seems conflicting considering the goal of the new talent system is to introduce flexibility in how a class can allocate their utility and playstyle.

Quick edit to state that the lower CD will even fit Blizz's current design philosophy of Ret being a slow (unfortunately), but hard to stop (also questionable in practice) crusader due to us having the choice to spec into a CD that recharges faster so we can survive 60s burst windows more reliably, or to use as a buffer to absorb attacks from range heavy comps while we "charge into battle on our Divine Steed" as we are being relentlessly kited.

[PaladinBash]

2m CD for Protection is awful. It just is. Make it 1m CD like Holy's and consider taking it off Unbreakable Spirit or leave it 2m CD and make Unbreakable Spirit a 50% reduction at 2/2. That way it's a 1m CD and bubble's more in line with other strong defensives at 2.5m CD.

It's just their design philosophy for Ret is just bullshit. "We want Ret to be slow and tanky" but then they refuse to give it anything to make it tanky and when forced into doing it, add needless things to make it awkward and bad. For instance, having to effectively take 3 talent points as it is now to get a 20% reduction on a 1.4m CD is shit. It just is. Die by the Sword, for instance, is 1 point and much better. Shammies are much faster and get their own 40% reduction on a similar timer with similar talent investments except it's stronger and lasts longer. Neither of those classes are supposed to be 'slow and tanky', to say nothing of DKs of course, who legitimately are just that.

The stupid horse takes 4pts to make good and while I'll argue simply taking 2pts makes it at least useable in PVE for most shit (1 to get it and another for 2 charges), it's pretty pathetic. Make it baseline last longer, leave in the 2-charge talent and replace the 2/2 increased duration with old PVP talent that lowers its CD instead. A lot of the issues in PVE with it isn't that it doesn't last long enough, it's that the CD is too long. I'd argue it should also have the damage reduction added to it but I already think riding a horse is fucking goofy looking as it is for mobility, never mind as a defensive and I don't think we're gonna get a 30s CD defensive any time soon on multiple charges. That's dreaming.

[Celvira]

I always thought Paladin's mobility, at least visually, should have leaned into their divine aesthetic. Instead of jumping on a horse, Paladin's could temporarily gain a pair of angelic wings (like they grow while Avenging Wrath is active) and either quickly dash in the direction they are facing (either one significant surge, or a few short dashes), or gain a new animation that functions as movement speed increase like our current Divine Steed or Rogue's sprint.

I know it wouldn't ultimately change much, but we'd look a hell of a lot more unique and better fulfill our classes fantasy of representing a divine warrior that is something greater than just "a heavily-armored knight on their horse". Bonus points if the wings functioned like DK skills and either removed CC or prevented us from being slowed for the duration.

[Gloriandus]

I like to envision a raid utility for Ret called "Inspiration". It leans into the fantasy of a "field general" inspiring his/her troops in battle. Spending Holy Power builds up an "Inspiration bar"; when maxed, one of a few abilties either become available to pick from, or are randomly cast.

- A lower-effectiveness World of Glory heal on all party/raid members within X yards
- Short-duration raidwide % stat buff (randomized?)
- Raid members within X yards deal X% of their damage as Holy damage for X seconds
- All raid members gain Avenging Wrath for X seconds (probably OP)
- 1-second group/raidwide Divine Shield (probably OP)

Things like that.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I mean that's kinda what the night fae thing was and everyone hated it

[Celvira]

My idea for a utility would have been a throwback to the Classic-WotLK era talent "Sanctified Retribution", but tweaked to better mesh with WoW's modern skills and talents. It would read as follows -

Sanctified Retribution
Instant
5 min cooldown

Utter a vow of enmity against the wicked, granting Seraphim to all party and raid members within 40 yards of you. Lasts 20 seconds.

The intent behind my suggestion was to give Ret a mini lust effect that leans into the fantasy of a vengeful crusader that doesn't require a party member be slain to activate, but without stepping on the toes of existing Paladin utilities such Holy's Aura Mastery talent that bolsters party survivability. Talents that provide DPS/HPS increases are always valuable, and such an ability would make Ret an appealing choice when forming a raid roster, even if their overall damage output happens to not be the greatest for the current patch cycle.

Sanctified Retribution would not inflict the exhaustion debuff, and if the ret paladin who cast the spell benefits from Seraphim before the effect expires (whether manually or passively through Retribution Aura) it alters Seraphim's duration to reflect the buff with the highest remaining time left.

[roboscorcher]

My idea for a utility would have been a throwback to the Classic-WotLK era talent "Sanctified Retribution", but tweaked to better mesh with WoW's modern skills and talents. It would read as follows -

Sanctified Retribution
Instant
5 min cooldown

Utter a vow of enmity against the wicked, granting Seraphim to all party and raid members within 40 yards of you. Lasts 20 seconds.

The intent behind my suggestion was to give Ret a mini lust effect that leans into the fantasy of a vengeful crusader that doesn't require a party member be slain to activate, but without stepping on the toes of existing Paladin utilities such Holy's Aura Mastery talent that bolsters party survivability. Talents that provide DPS/HPS increases are always valuable, and such an ability would make Ret an appealing choice when forming a raid roster, even if their overall damage output happens to not be the greatest for the current patch cycle.

Sanctified Retribution would not inflict the exhaustion debuff, and if the ret paladin who cast the spell benefits from Seraphim before the effect expires (whether manually or passively through Retribution Aura) it alters Seraphim's duration to reflect the buff with the highest remaining time left.

That's a pretty cool idea.

I recently had a thought about Retribution Aura. What if it had a bonus effect where, if you're the last one standing in a full raid/party, you become a Divine Avenger for 15 seconds. This buff gives you 75% damage absorption, 25% bonus damage, and a Naaru spawns to give minor heals. 1 hour CD, resets like Bloodlust.

Divine Avenger could be a Ret-only talent, and this effect would be a secondary effect to one of the passive talents (2% mastery for example).

This would be a fun niche thing for Rets, and would finally give them something only their spec can bring.

[Gloriandus]

My idea for a utility would have been a throwback to the Classic-WotLK era talent "Sanctified Retribution", but tweaked to better mesh with WoW's modern skills and talents. It would read as follows -

Sanctified Retribution
Instant
5 min cooldown

Utter a vow of enmity against the wicked, granting Seraphim to all party and raid members within 40 yards of you. Lasts 20 seconds.

The intent behind my suggestion was to give Ret a mini lust effect that leans into the fantasy of a vengeful crusader that doesn't require a party member be slain to activate, but without stepping on the toes of existing Paladin utilities such Holy's Aura Mastery talent that bolsters party survivability. Talents that provide DPS/HPS increases are always valuable, and such an ability would make Ret an appealing choice when forming a raid roster, even if their overall damage output happens to not be the greatest for the current patch cycle.

Sanctified Retribution would not inflict the exhaustion debuff, and if the ret paladin who cast the spell benefits from Seraphim before the effect expires (whether manually or passively through Retribution Aura) it alters Seraphim's duration to reflect the buff with the highest remaining time left.

Yes, that is a cool idea, and practical. Roboscorcher's is awesome as well.

[ExiHext]

That's a pretty cool idea.

I recently had a thought about Retribution Aura. What if it had a bonus effect where, if you're the last one standing in a full raid/party, you become a Divine Avenger for 15 seconds. This buff gives you 75% damage absorption, 25% bonus damage, and a Naaru spawns to give minor heals. 1 hour CD, resets like Bloodlust.

Divine Avenger could be a Ret-only talent, and this effect would be a secondary effect to one of the passive talents (2% mastery for example).

This would be a fun niche thing for Rets, and would finally give them something only their spec can bring.

Don't like. If you are the last one standing, the fight is basically over. 15s mean nothing. We need something that benefits the group while everybody is alive.

[ipoststuff]

I think mobility is our biggest issue in PvP. Once it's fixed it will also improve our survivability. With more uptime we'll be able to pressure more, heal more, interrupt more. At 45 seconds cooldown Divine Steed is never going to be enough.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Group Seraphim would be way too powerful lol.

Just adding back the Legion-BFA passive would be a huge boost in progression when people die more frequently.

Dungeon utility is a lot harder since it's competing against so many other melee specs for basically 1 or maybe 2 slots. If dungeons output more unavoidable damage and off-healing was improved, it would help a fair bit. Just not sure they'll go back to that model

[Celvira]

I'd rather we get utility that doesn't encourage allies to die to gain a DPS benefit, and that includes the older Retribution passive. In mythic, early deaths usually result in the raid lead calling for a wipe anyways, and the personal DPS gain becomes, less and less relevant as your guild becomes comfortable performing mechanics.

Also, I believe the group Seraphim can work if the values prove to be too strong. Instead of 8% increases, it can be lowered to 3% to account for the entire group receiving the buff. If it's still considered overkill, the classic version of Sanctified Retribution gave a flat 3% damage increase, so the ability could be altered to cause all the party/raid members attacks to deal additional holy damage for the duration.

I just wanted a skill that felt more engaging for the raid beyond a simple damage increase (more haste speeds up rotations, and select classes can proc effects with the higher crit-chance).

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Paladins getting brez, which is something

[Celvira]

Paladins getting brez, which is something

Yeah, but it's ultimately inconsequential since DK, another plate DPS, has a battle rez and the coveted Anti-Magic Zone in a single package. Plus, brez has limited uses per encounter, but having a Blood tank and a DK dps means the entire raid gets two uses of AMZ, compared to Paladin's utility of making a single player invulnerable every 3-5 minutes (a Protection Paladin will likely use their immunity on themselves dealing with mechanics, so that utility tends to only benefit themselves).

Also, there is a chance Ion mixed-up the class that receives the new brez during the interview (saying the first class that came to mind), and it could very well end up going to Priest. He never confirmed which class gets it, just hinted, so we still need confirmation.

However, if Paladin does get the new brez, but with an added effect (such as giving the Paladin who cast the brez a small duration of wings that stacks with our passive) then we could possibly be going somewhere. But brez's usually don't have a secondary effect, so this is wishful thinking at best.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I mean it's nice for small groups and no longer makes engineering mandatory, but that's about it. Still not a reason to take a paladin

[Kalisandra]

I mean it's nice for small groups and no longer makes engineering mandatory, but that's about it. Still not a reason to take a paladin

Given my gear-luck I'll be stuck with Engineering for the googles anyway (unless Smithing has good hats).

[Eon Drache]

Paladins getting brez, which is something

Wait is it confirmed its paladin? I just saw another class might get it.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I heard it was elsewhere, but maybe maybe it was an example and not for sure

[ipoststuff]

Ion mentioned one more class is getting battle res. He also mentioned they are considering paladin. It is not 100% yet but mosty likely paladins will get it. It fits the paladin best and ret really needs 5man utility.
I think it's great. A lot of paladins, including me, have been asking for battle res.

[roboscorcher]

Ion mentioned one more class is getting battle res. He also mentioned they are considering paladin. It is not 100% yet but mosty likely paladins will get it. It fits the paladin best and ret really needs 5man utility.
I think it's great. A lot of paladins, including me, have been asking for battle res.

Haha I was just reading that and thinking "that would be a great addition to Retribution Aura. When it procs, the paladin rez becomes a brez." This would allow all Paladins to use it, but Ret would be in the best position to use it. They could even make it a Ret tree talent, to make it spec specific. But the RetAura solution is fairer, where Holy and Prot can still brez if they switch auras.