Retribution Dragonflight Talents

[ipoststuff]

Path of Ruin is undertuned. ATM picking it is a dps loss. Within 45 seconds you can 3xPoR for 9 hp cost or 1 WoA + 4 DS for a total of 9hp cost. And the latter does way more damage.

I don't think removing the cooldown would work since it would simply replace DS ,and possible TV too, which isn't that interesting. Removing the hp cost however could work.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

this talent tree is quite sad.

Its like they understand the old tree was more fun but the totally fail to understand why. Its not about just pushing buttons its about freedom. If you look yourself to the meta it is your decision not blizzard decision.

What does this even mean? There have always and always will be better and worse choices for talents in a game like this, it's just the reality.

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Path of Ruin is undertuned. ATM picking it is a dps loss. Within 45 seconds you can 3xPoR for 9 hp cost or 1 WoA + 4 DS for a total of 9hp cost. And the latter does way more damage.

I don't think removing the cooldown would work since it would simply replace DS ,and possible TV too, which isn't that interesting. Removing the hp cost however could work.

The numbers stuff seems like the least important thing right now, and probably what will be changed last.

[Tangra58]

I like it it terms of damage and healing, but those are just numbers that could end up being weak. Cleave looks good. I'm worried about CC defensive cooldowns, and mobily. My windwaker and havoc dh seem to bengetting way bigger buffs out of this.

[Bigcountry11782]

Th ret tree just looks boring and just a copy/paste of what we already have with some stupid consecration garbage added to it. so no I am not exited for the tree. Blizzard hates us rets nothing will get better.

[Chickat]

Th ret tree just looks boring and just a copy/paste of what we already have with some stupid consecration garbage added to it. so no I am not exited for the tree. Blizzard hates us rets nothing will get better.

I think the cons build sounds fun for m+ personally. Its not the best tree, but there are worse ones. I do wish they would give us half the attention that some classes are getting though. I wonder if pally dev is the one that left? Do we know whos working on pally, or what other tree they are working on?

[Celvira]

What's bothering me is that they are making DK's Death Advance talent baseline, AND adding a movement speed increase talent on top of it. Meanwhile, paladins still need to spec into their mobility, and then pump 3 additional points into it to get maximum value.

Devs stated they want paladin to be slow, but hard to stop, yet DK has done this much better than us since Legion released. To add salt to the wound, they removed Long Arm of the Law without giving us an alternative skill to compensate, whether that be a new mobility skill or an additional anti-CC tool. But hey, I guess it's okay for DK to have Death Grip and be fast and hard to stop. Thanks for listening to paladin feedback and implementing our suggestions onto DK Blizzard!

[Usagi Senshi]

What's bothering me is that they are making DK's Death Advance talent baseline, AND adding a movement speed increase talent on top of it. Meanwhile, paladins still need to spec into their mobility, and then pump 3 additional points into it to get maximum value.

Devs stated they want paladin to be slow, but hard to stop, yet DK has done this much better than us since Legion released. To add salt to the wound, they removed Long Arm of the Law without giving us an alternative skill to compensate, whether that be a new mobility skill or an additional anti-CC tool. But hey, I guess it's okay for DK to have Death Grip and be fast and hard to stop. Thanks for listening to paladin feedback and implementing our suggestions onto DK Blizzard!

Yeah, I was already thinking about dusting off my old ret paladin for fun, but my original intent was sticking with my Frost DK and Arms warrior and I'm thinking that's the better plan overall.

[ExiHext]

I think the cons build sounds fun for m+ personally. Its not the best tree, but there are worse ones. I do wish they would give us half the attention that some classes are getting though. I wonder if pally dev is the one that left? Do we know whos working on pally, or what other tree they are working on?

I like the idea of Cons in theory, but in reality it sucks in M+. Mobs will be kited out of it constantly which will lead to massive damage loss if you take all Cons talents. That said, although I'm always quite pessimistic, I am convinced we will see a lot of rework in the general paladin tree and perhaps the ret tree in the next two weeks. They are nowhere near the other talent trees (besides druid and priest which are almost confirmed to get reworks) in terms of quality.
And then there is this whole thing about paladins supposedly getting a combat rezz.

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What's bothering me is that they are making DK's Death Advance talent baseline, AND adding a movement speed increase talent on top of it. Meanwhile, paladins still need to spec into their mobility, and then pump 3 additional points into it to get maximum value.

Devs stated they want paladin to be slow, but hard to stop, yet DK has done this much better than us since Legion released. To add salt to the wound, they removed Long Arm of the Law without giving us an alternative skill to compensate, whether that be a new mobility skill or an additional anti-CC tool. But hey, I guess it's okay for DK to have Death Grip and be fast and hard to stop. Thanks for listening to paladin feedback and implementing our suggestions onto DK Blizzard!

I am almost positive they will adress our mobility in the next weeks. I'm guessing at least Divine Steed will go baseline. Everything else would be outrageous.

[Chickat]

I like the idea of Cons in theory, but in reality it sucks in M+. Mobs will be kited out of it constantly which will lead to massive damage loss if you take all Cons talents. That said, although I'm always quite pessimistic, I am convinced we will see a lot of rework in the general paladin tree and perhaps the ret tree in the next two weeks. They are nowhere near the other talent trees (besides druid and priest which are almost confirmed to get reworks) in terms of quality.
And then there is this whole thing about paladins supposedly getting a combat rezz.

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I am almost positive they will adress our mobility in the next weeks. I'm guessing at least Divine Steed will go baseline. Everything else would be outrageous.

Tbh, I cant stand the constant kiting meta in m+. I wish they would change that.

[Nymrohd]

For me the main issue remains the class tree. I think you should need at most half your points to get the throughput talents in the class tree, like shaman do with the capstone talents of the class tree being powerful utilities or defensives (honestly feel shaman trees should be how ALL trees should be). Meanwhile ret will only pick utility in the tree because they have to path through it. Pathing is also very restrictive.

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Tbh, I cant stand the constant kiting meta in m+. I wish they would change that.

It's just not tanking! I get having to kite a specific type of mob, that's part of the job (even though it used to be that dps had the better tools to do and often were assigned that job). But when at some point the entire idea is to generate enough threat under defensives so you can kite while the rest of the group tries to kill the mobs that's just degenerate; it's clearly not how the game is intended to be played and just the result of infinite progression.

On Divine Steed I actually enjoy the ability I just wish they went all the way. This was ripped off Diablo 3. Rip it properly. Make the base talent have two charges and then replace Cavalier with a Choice node between Steed of Glory (the pvp ability that knocks people back and gives you snare immunity) and obviously Draw and Quarter "Holy chains will bind up to 6 nearby monsters, dragging them as you ride". Replace Seasoned Warhorse with a new talent that drags any active Consecration that you are standing on along with you.

[Chickat]

For me the main issue remains the class tree. I think you should need at most half your points to get the throughput talents in the class tree, like shaman do with the capstone talents of the class tree being powerful utilities or defensives (honestly feel shaman trees should be how ALL trees should be). Meanwhile ret will only pick utility in the tree because they have to path through it. Pathing is also very restrictive.

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It's just not tanking! I get having to kite a specific type of mob, that's part of the job (even though it used to be that dps had the better tools to do and often were assigned that job). But when at some point the entire idea is to generate enough threat under defensives so you can kite while the rest of the group tries to kill the mobs that's just degenerate; it's clearly not how the game is intended to be played and just the result of infinite progression.

On Divine Steed I actually enjoy the ability I just wish they went all the way. This was ripped off Diablo 3. Rip it properly. Make the base talent have two charges and then replace Cavalier with a Choice node between Steed of Glory (the pvp ability that knocks people back and gives you snare immunity) and obviously Draw and Quarter "Holy chains will bind up to 6 nearby monsters, dragging them as you ride". Replace Seasoned Warhorse with a new talent that drags any active Consecration that you are standing on along with you.

Tbh, I would like Consecrated ground. Your consecration emenates from you as an area instead of on the ground. It just follows you around like a big power word barrier.

[Nymrohd]

Tbh, I would like Consecrated ground. Your consecration emenates from you as an area instead of on the ground. It just follows you around like a big power word barrier.

Or just make it a straight up Aura.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Being on the ground is bad for dungeons and pvp. I never understood why anyone was happy it was added back to the rotation lol

And now after a whole expansion with insanely powerful ground circles like wild spirits, spear, etc I would hope the lesson was learned, but sadly it does not seem so. And sadly I think the odds of it turning into a PbAoe pulsing aura are insanely low since it would negate the point of prot tanking inside it

[Thundering]

What does this even mean? There have always and always will be better and worse choices for talents in a game like this, it's just the reality.

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The numbers stuff seems like the least important thing right now, and probably what will be changed last.

What does this even mean? There have always and always will be better and worse choices for talents in a game like this, it's just the reality.

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The numbers stuff seems like the least important thing right now, and probably what will be changed last.

It simple means in vanilla you can both be a healer and a tank this is possible in tbc too but to a lower degree due to heroics(pre nerf), you can design the talents as u wish to play. You can open up entire playstyles just for fun like Shockadin's, not bis or a common accepted raidspecc(but with the right guild you can be accepted as a dps/healer) but its there and you can have fun with it.

A problem with modern blizzard is they dont like giving players the power due to, then they need to work more to "balance" things that can be abused. Also its against their more themepark note concept.

[Nymrohd]

Being on the ground is bad for dungeons and pvp. I never understood why anyone was happy it was added back to the rotation lol

And now after a whole expansion with insanely powerful ground circles like wild spirits, spear, etc I would hope the lesson was learned, but sadly it does not seem so. And sadly I think the odds of it turning into a PbAoe pulsing aura are insanely low since it would negate the point of prot tanking inside it

While I fully agree that SL made a mesh with ground effects, Consecration is absolutely thematic of Paladin. My initial suggestion was a talent linked to Steed that let you pick up your active consecrations and move them along, dropping them wherever the steed stopped. This would have helped Prot significantly (since Prot would now be able to move between spots without forfeiting mastery) but would also be useful for Ret, especially if it affected extra consecrations created by BoJ.
I guess mechanically it would convert Consecration into an Aura when you used steed, dispel existing consecrations and when Steed lapsed, it would remove the Aura and cast the consecrations on the spot for their remaining duration. Any cast during would be Auras as well?

[Kalisandra]

Being on the ground is bad for dungeons and pvp. I never understood why anyone was happy it was added back to the rotation lol

And now after a whole expansion with insanely powerful ground circles like wild spirits, spear, etc I would hope the lesson was learned, but sadly it does not seem so. And sadly I think the odds of it turning into a PbAoe pulsing aura are insanely low since it would negate the point of prot tanking inside it

That Prot has to tank on Consecration to get some of their abilities working properly is silly anyway, in this age of kiting pulls.

[Varaben]

What does this even mean? There have always and always will be better and worse choices for talents in a game like this, it's just the reality.

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The numbers stuff seems like the least important thing right now, and probably what will be changed last.

I get what you're saying, but at the same time, justicar's vengeance has been in the tree for years and has been largely undertuned the entire time. Yet it's still there, wasting space. Surely Blizz can look at raid logs and such and see talents that literally get 0 use. So it being there and them adding THEN removing long arm of the law, makes it kinda look like they're phoning in the ret talents at this point. The recent changes were positive I'd say, but still they have a long ways to go. Look what they did to the mage talents - everyone complained and said they were terrible and the tree got reworked. Now everyone loves the mage trees.

Point is, ret needs the same thing, so hopefully it's just a matter of time. They were messing around with the paladin tree last week, so hopefully we see some adjustments this week.

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Being on the ground is bad for dungeons and pvp. I never understood why anyone was happy it was added back to the rotation lol

And now after a whole expansion with insanely powerful ground circles like wild spirits, spear, etc I would hope the lesson was learned, but sadly it does not seem so. And sadly I think the odds of it turning into a PbAoe pulsing aura are insanely low since it would negate the point of prot tanking inside it

I'd rather see consecration turned into Ashen Hollow-like, where it has a long cooldown, but bigger effect. Just passive damage on the ground is a 2005-era effect IMO. Imagine if mages still channeled blizzard as a big part of their AOE or warlock's spammed rain of fire (not sure they ever did?). It's such an iconic ability for paladins and I'm glad Blizz is trying to make it work, but holy crap there are so many talents needed to boost its damage. They need to be 1 point-ers if they really want us to use consecration.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I get what you're saying, but at the same time, justicar's vengeance has been in the tree for years and has been largely undertuned the entire time. Yet it's still there, wasting space. Surely Blizz can look at raid logs and such and see talents that literally get 0 use. So it being there and them adding THEN removing long arm of the law, makes it kinda look like they're phoning in the ret talents at this point. The recent changes were positive I'd say, but still they have a long ways to go. Look what they did to the mage talents - everyone complained and said they were terrible and the tree got reworked. Now everyone loves the mage trees.

Point is, ret needs the same thing, so hopefully it's just a matter of time. They were messing around with the paladin tree last week, so hopefully we see some adjustments this week.

Oh sure, but I think right now in an alpha debating the spell power coefficient of an ability is probably not the top tier concern. We won't get that type of data until way more people are playing the beta and logging etc.

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It simple means in vanilla you can both be a healer and a tank this is possible in tbc too but to a lower degree due to heroics(pre nerf), you can design the talents as u wish to play. You can open up entire playstyles just for fun like Shockadin's, not bis or a common accepted raidspecc(but with the right guild you can be accepted as a dps/healer) but its there and you can have fun with it.

A problem with modern blizzard is they dont like giving players the power due to, then they need to work more to "balance" things that can be abused. Also its against their more themepark note concept.

I mean, it's a different game from a different time period. There were always better choices then too and the logs we have from classic show how hilariously imbalanced the game is, beyond anything that would be tolerated now. Not by Blizzard, but by the audience!

[Thundering]

Oh sure, but I think right now in an alpha debating the spell power coefficient of an ability is probably not the top tier concern. We won't get that type of data until way more people are playing the beta and logging etc.

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I mean, it's a different game from a different time period. There were always better choices then too and the logs we have from classic show how hilariously imbalanced the game is, beyond anything that would be tolerated now. Not by Blizzard, but by the audience!

The unbalance was already existing knölade and still people played vanilla classic and just accepted it and enjoyed the game for it what it was. People just had fun something retail haven't showed in a very very long time.
People had no problems accepting it.

[Varaben]

Oh sure, but I think right now in an alpha debating the spell power coefficient of an ability is probably not the top tier concern. We won't get that type of data until way more people are playing the beta and logging etc.

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I mean, it's a different game from a different time period. There were always better choices then too and the logs we have from classic show how hilariously imbalanced the game is, beyond anything that would be tolerated now. Not by Blizzard, but by the audience!

I get what you're saying "it's alpha" but both consecration and justicar's vengeance have been undertuned for YEARS, so there's no reason to think they will be useful in Dragonflight. That said, there are so many knobs that increase consecration's damage that if it isn't good, it's a huge black eye on the ret tree. Theres 10+ points that Blizz wants us to take that beef up consecration, and it's not clear whether that is actually going to be worth getting or not. You have to make some serious trade-offs to get all that FAT aoe damage, but even on alpha some of the talents aren't working and the damage is still miniscule.