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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Varaben View Post
    I get what you're saying, but at the same time, justicar's vengeance has been in the tree for years and has been largely undertuned the entire time. Yet it's still there, wasting space. Surely Blizz can look at raid logs and such and see talents that literally get 0 use. So it being there and them adding THEN removing long arm of the law, makes it kinda look like they're phoning in the ret talents at this point. The recent changes were positive I'd say, but still they have a long ways to go. Look what they did to the mage talents - everyone complained and said they were terrible and the tree got reworked. Now everyone loves the mage trees.

    Point is, ret needs the same thing, so hopefully it's just a matter of time. They were messing around with the paladin tree last week, so hopefully we see some adjustments this week.
    Oh sure, but I think right now in an alpha debating the spell power coefficient of an ability is probably not the top tier concern. We won't get that type of data until way more people are playing the beta and logging etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundering View Post
    It simple means in vanilla you can both be a healer and a tank this is possible in tbc too but to a lower degree due to heroics(pre nerf), you can design the talents as u wish to play. You can open up entire playstyles just for fun like Shockadin's, not bis or a common accepted raidspecc(but with the right guild you can be accepted as a dps/healer) but its there and you can have fun with it.

    A problem with modern blizzard is they dont like giving players the power due to, then they need to work more to "balance" things that can be abused. Also its against their more themepark note concept.
    I mean, it's a different game from a different time period. There were always better choices then too and the logs we have from classic show how hilariously imbalanced the game is, beyond anything that would be tolerated now. Not by Blizzard, but by the audience!

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Oh sure, but I think right now in an alpha debating the spell power coefficient of an ability is probably not the top tier concern. We won't get that type of data until way more people are playing the beta and logging etc.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I mean, it's a different game from a different time period. There were always better choices then too and the logs we have from classic show how hilariously imbalanced the game is, beyond anything that would be tolerated now. Not by Blizzard, but by the audience!
    The unbalance was already existing knölade and still people played vanilla classic and just accepted it and enjoyed the game for it what it was. People just had fun something retail haven't showed in a very very long time.
    People had no problems accepting it.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Oh sure, but I think right now in an alpha debating the spell power coefficient of an ability is probably not the top tier concern. We won't get that type of data until way more people are playing the beta and logging etc.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I mean, it's a different game from a different time period. There were always better choices then too and the logs we have from classic show how hilariously imbalanced the game is, beyond anything that would be tolerated now. Not by Blizzard, but by the audience!
    I get what you're saying "it's alpha" but both consecration and justicar's vengeance have been undertuned for YEARS, so there's no reason to think they will be useful in Dragonflight. That said, there are so many knobs that increase consecration's damage that if it isn't good, it's a huge black eye on the ret tree. Theres 10+ points that Blizz wants us to take that beef up consecration, and it's not clear whether that is actually going to be worth getting or not. You have to make some serious trade-offs to get all that FAT aoe damage, but even on alpha some of the talents aren't working and the damage is still miniscule.
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  4. #124
    oh i 100% agree on consecration. Like I said earlier, relying on ground-based damage is inherently a disadvantage with no upside. that's different than talking about pure numbers tuning imo

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundering View Post
    even classic trees are better than this.
    Found the vanilla zealot who pretends like spending most of your time auto attacking is compelling because they have some silly vendetta against wow

  6. #126
    New build confirms Paladins receive the new brez, and nerfs to some of our talents damage throughout. The silver lining is that they are adjusted the class tree, so hopefully they'll condense some of the 0/2 and 0/3 nodes so we can select more utility without sacrificing our DPS potential.

    Edit - I just noticed the new talents were up on Wowhead, and the changes made were all pretty good. All the DPS nodes are more readily available (we can safely take Aegis and Recompense together without sacrificing other talents), and both Unbreakable Spirit and Spellwarding are valuable talents that were placed higher in the tree. Also, my previous hopes for reducing talent bloat were addressed, as Seal of Reprisal and Seal of the Crusader both became 0/2 talents instead of their original 0/3.

    As I said, pretty great changes all around! My only substantial grievance with the new class tree is that Seasoned Warhorse is still a 0/2 talent, and I'd love to see it reduced to a single node or rolled into Divine Steed and made baseline. If the latter was to occur, we could receive a new talent to improve Divine Steed like DK's new Mark of Darkness talent (possibly a talent that ignores roots when Divine Steed is active, but I admit this is wishful thinking).

    For the spec tree, nothing major has changed, but it is interesting to note that Divine Protection is listed with a 1 min CD as opposed to the previous blue post claiming the CD would match SoV's 2 min. I'm hoping this is intentional and not a mistake, as Ret sorely needs a short-CD defensive to feel less squishy compared to other melee specs.

    My wishes for the spec tree going forward would be seeing less reliance on trying to make Consecration more appealing to artificially "fill" the tree, and for some of those talents to get replaced with new additions/abilities that alter our gameplay in more meaningful ways. I understand this will be a more rigorous task with DF's release looming on the horizon, so realistically this is more a hope for future iterations of the spec tree post-launch.
    Last edited by Celvira; 2022-09-01 at 09:57 PM.
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  7. #127
    I like the layout of the new class tree a lot more now. We get more choices about which talents to take, though we are still forced down a set path. The Divine Steed talents still need to be adjusted. No reason it should be 4 talents. Merge Seasoned Warhorse and Cavalier so that it is 1 talent. Move Seal of the Templar into one of their spots. Move around another talent somewhere. It is a move in the right direction, though. The spec tree got the changes that were announced last week with Divine Protection and Divine Toll moving. I would like to see the node for selfless healer and healing hands switch with Eye for an Eye and Justicar's Vengeance.

    We can now take Fires of Justice and Aspirations of Divinity. This makes Crusader Strike for ret way more impactful.

    Something to note is Divine Protection is listed as a 1 minute CD, 20% Reduction 8 seconds. Unbreakable spirit DOES say it reduces to the CD by 30%. Anyone in beta can confirm if taking unbreakable spirit makes Divine Protection 40 seconds?

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Eon Drache View Post

    Something to note is Divine Protection is listed as a 1 minute CD, 20% Reduction 8 seconds. Unbreakable spirit DOES say it reduces to the CD by 30%. Anyone in beta can confirm if taking unbreakable spirit makes Divine Protection 40 seconds?
    When I was last subbed, that was how it worked for Holy paladin with Unbreakable Spirit SL. Although I think the actual CD was about 44 seconds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gungus View Post

    You think the girl born with eight limbs is now a spider?

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Celvira View Post
    When I was last subbed, that was how it worked for Holy paladin with Unbreakable Spirit SL. Although I think the actual CD was about 44 seconds.
    if it does end up being 44 seconds I'd be very happy with it. That would be a huge step up from what ret currently has as far as a defensive.

    Edit: Seems it is actually a 2 minute CD on the beta for ret, the wowhead calculator is wrong and lists it at a 1 min base. Unbreakable spirit reduces it to a 1.4m CD.
    Last edited by Eon Drache; 2022-09-02 at 02:53 PM.

  10. #130
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    At 2mins CD Protection is worse than Vengeance, and as both as affected by Unbreakable Spirit, that doesn't change this. It needs to be 1 min CD to even begin to compete (and as Vengeance is horrible, that says a lot about how weak a 2min Protection is).

  11. #131
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    • I think Divine Intervention would have been a better suited name for our battle rez. The new class tree looks much better.
    • The Mad Paragon talent changed to only work with HoW. The Mad Paragon and Vanguard's Momentum talents work well together. I think you either pick both or none, which makes The Mad Paragon quite useless for other specs.
    • Divine Protection at 42 seconds cooldown looks promising. I think they need take SoV off GCD too.
    • Turn Evil needs to be instant to be worth a point. We already have Repentance, Turn Evil isn't good enough to varrant a point I believe.
    • Seasoned Warhorse should reduced Divine Steed cooldown by 5/10 seconds. 45 is cooldown is too long.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    oh i 100% agree on consecration. Like I said earlier, relying on ground-based damage is inherently a disadvantage with no upside. that's different than talking about pure numbers tuning imo
    I personally think consecration builds should be thing for prot paladin, but seems like they want this to be retributions aoe build. So what about a talent that behaves like the old glyph of consecrator? This would make it more like a rushing jade wind allowing for more flexibility.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by ipoststuff View Post
    • I think Divine Intervention would have been a better suited name for our battle rez. The new class tree looks much better.
    • The Mad Paragon talent changed to only work with HoW. The Mad Paragon and Vanguard's Momentum talents work well together. I think you either pick both or none, which makes The Mad Paragon quite useless for other specs.
    • Divine Protection at 42 seconds cooldown looks promising. I think they need take SoV off GCD too.
    • Turn Evil needs to be instant to be worth a point. We already have Repentance, Turn Evil isn't good enough to varrant a point I believe.
    • Seasoned Warhorse should reduced Divine Steed cooldown by 5/10 seconds. 45 is cooldown is too long.
    Sadly Divine Protection is 1.4 min CD with Unbreakable talented.

  14. #134
    Bloodsail Admiral ipoststuff's Avatar
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    I think LoH should be usable in arenas. I don't think it makes sense to have a talent you can't use in pvp. Reducing base cooldown to 7 minutes would bring it to 5 minutes with Unbreakable Spirit. A big heal on a 5 minutes cooldown with Forbearance debuff is nothing too special.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by ipoststuff View Post
    I think LoH should be usable in arenas. I don't think it makes sense to have a talent you can't use in pvp. Reducing base cooldown to 7 minutes would bring it to 5 minutes with Unbreakable Spirit. A big heal on a 5 minutes cooldown with Forbearance debuff is nothing too special.
    Especially given dampening.

  16. #136
    Don't know if it's the most recent iteration, but now Ashes to Ashes is center bottom, in front of all the goodies.

    I don't understand why they are pushing this talent, or why it even exists. Utter garbage...
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  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foolicious View Post
    I personally think consecration builds should be thing for prot paladin, but seems like they want this to be retributions aoe build. So what about a talent that behaves like the old glyph of consecrator? This would make it more like a rushing jade wind allowing for more flexibility.
    Just give us a utility talent that lets Divine Steed drag your Consecrations along

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowfunk View Post
    Don't know if it's the most recent iteration, but now Ashes to Ashes is center bottom, in front of all the goodies.

    I don't understand why they are pushing this talent, or why it even exists. Utter garbage...
    Ashes to ashes is a great talent.... Its the current tier bonus?

  19. #139
    Giving a brez is neat but I think the re-removal of Long Arm of the Law might have finally broken my will to actually buy this expansion. I don't care about PVP a bit, but I really enjoyed it as more or less on-demand or semi-constant movement boost in PVE, and I had accepted it was gone, but putting it in and then pulling it right back out in favor of that stupid-ass looking horse might have done it.

  20. #140
    Bloodsail Admiral ipoststuff's Avatar
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    This is more of a graph/tree design problem than a paladin one. In a tree it doesn't make sense to have connection from a node with a sigle parent to a sibling node. The connections below serve no purpose.

    Cleanse Toxins -> Holy Aegis
    Cavalier -> Avenging Wrath
    Seasoned Warhorse -> Avenging Wrath
    Judgment -> Seal of the Templar

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