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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Yeah honestly I usually cope with ret being bad/mediocre by just tanking in keys, but prot plays like garbage in DF with the holy power nerf. The only real fun button prot has is avenger's shield (and toll) and now those are worse.

    Pretty much always level pal 1st or 2nd every expansion but unless the tuning is mega busted I don't really see a point in 10.0
    I always level my Paladin first, partly because they've been my main almost the whole time since BC, but also because experience has taught me that levelling Paladins tends to be fairly miserable, so I do it first and get it out of the way (and because if I put it off I probably won't get round to it until late or never). This tripped me up in BfA because Ret was very strong levelling, and my second 'main' was a Shaman and they were very much not. Otherwise it's been a pretty good rule of thumb.

  2. #162
    So they made spellwarding prot only and now it shares a CD instead of replacing BoP so there is even less reason to bring a ret.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Eon Drache View Post
    So they made spellwarding prot only and now it shares a CD instead of replacing BoP so there is even less reason to bring a ret.
    Yep. This nerfs Ret's utility and survivability all in one go.

    On top of this, the nerf to Art of War proc rates de-powers a number of talents, all in the name of slowing Holy Power generation. If HoPo generation was really that much too high, surely knocking BoJ down to one HoPo would've solved it?

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    Yep. This nerfs Ret's utility and survivability all in one go.

    On top of this, the nerf to Art of War proc rates de-powers a number of talents, all in the name of slowing Holy Power generation. If HoPo generation was really that much too high, surely knocking BoJ down to one HoPo would've solved it?
    I feel like they saw rets were disappointed so they wanted to see how far they could knock us in 1 go. Moving Empyrean Power and Zeal is really crappy too.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Eon Drache View Post
    I feel like they saw rets were disappointed so they wanted to see how far they could knock us in 1 go. Moving Empyrean Power and Zeal is really crappy too.
    I don't think it actually changes much - Zeal beats Fires, so we'll still take it, and Empyrean Power is actually quite strong so we'll want it anyway. It's a bit pointless, but doesn't really change anything.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    Yep. This nerfs Ret's utility and survivability all in one go.

    On top of this, the nerf to Art of War proc rates de-powers a number of talents, all in the name of slowing Holy Power generation. If HoPo generation was really that much too high, surely knocking BoJ down to one HoPo would've solved it?
    Probably kills the consecration build before it even started.

  7. #167
    Its sad thing that rets didnt change at all since Legion.

    Yes, we do get few abilities back. But most of them wont be used because of how underpowered they are.

    So the gameplay feels the same for 6+ years. Which is sad. And its not just about rets.

    1. In an ideal world, they should remove holy power completely.

    2. Convert Blades of Justice back into Exorcism. Which would be pure holy dmg. (Buffs us in pvp)

    3. Remove "radiant" (w/e that spell dmg is) Wake of Ash and bring back Holy Wrath (would be pure holy dmg and would generate HP if we still have it)

    4. Remove retarded steed and bring back Pursuit of Justice (increases speed by % based on HP)

    5. Bring back old Long arm of the law.

    6. Bring back Divine Intervention as flavor ability + wipe/res safe.

    If engineers can have if, why paladins cant?

    7. Remove word of glory and bring back old flash of light instant after 4 judgements.

    8. Judgement CD reduced significantly.

    9. Instead of WOG, bring back holy radience. Make it cost 50% mama and have ~2 sec cast time. Would be HUGE m+/raid utility.

    10. Remove joke (shield) of Vengeance and bring back Divine Protection. Which would reduce dmg taken by 20% if 1 min cd. Or 35% if 2 min cd.


    Now, many spells could be buffed/enchanted if we had pre-legion glyphs. (Like DS heals for X amount.... radiance heals 2 more persons.... judgement range increased by X.... holy wrath stuns elementals too... etc, etc, etc...)



    Those were the days, my friend....

  8. #168
    So really, the only good thing from the revamp for Ret viability was Spellwarding and that was removed. Back to the same position it was before, all of its utility can be better provided by a Prot or Holy paladin so it lives or dies by the numbers it puts out.

  9. #169
    At this point you can't tell me that they just don't care about Rets. Like, I'm not buying that.
    This is like targeted bullying at this point. There's no way they don't have a giant post-it hanging in there office, saying (in big letters) that Rets just must be fucked with.

    It's too much incompetence at once. Too much attention on specific parts of an otherwise entirely neglected spec at once.

    To look at Ret, the probably least brought spec, the probably least performing spec in history, and say that, after already taking away parts of their kit with the talent tree revamp, they've now decided to even take the one new utility toy away that might possibly perhaps eventually whocouldhaveknownaly given Ret an ever so slight chance at being relevant once or twice per tier. Someone very high up at Blizzard clearly hates Ret. There's no way this tree went live and Spellwarding were taken away if anyone at Blizzard gave even just the slightest fuck about this spec being able to find a group.

  10. #170
    I'm playing Ret in classic and the difference is astounding, one feels like a holy warrior the other a rogue without mobility.

    Can't we go back in design? Ditch holy power, make us resilient (and slow), with lots of utility.

    Sincerely I couldn't care less about damage rankings or dps meters, they are just numbers but live paladin feels wrong, doesn't feel like a paladin in my opinion.
    Vae Victis... woe to the conquered!

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Binks View Post
    I'm playing Ret in classic and the difference is astounding, one feels like a holy warrior the other a rogue without mobility.

    Can't we go back in design? Ditch holy power, make us resilient (and slow), with lots of utility.

    Sincerely I couldn't care less about damage rankings or dps meters, they are just numbers but live paladin feels wrong, doesn't feel like a paladin in my opinion.
    See, this is why I don't get why everyone hates Divine Steed. Sure Pursuit worked better but that's all effect and no aesthetics. Getting Divine Steed to work and be unique would let Paladins be as they should be (slow and tanky) with the ability to have effective mobility when needed that makes sense with the Holy Knight fantasy.

  12. #172
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    Removal of Spellwarding is a very big nerf to both our survivability and utility. I really don't see how ret had too much utility to warrant a nerf like this.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Probably kills the consecration build before it even started.
    Actually, by making Wake procs so rare, it might force the Consecration build, because even without procs at least you're still doing damage from the base Cons - we just won't even consider Ashes to Dust in such a build.

    It's killed Radiant Decree, though - it doesn't do enough damage to be worth pressing, let alone spending a point on when HoPo is rare, and if its damage is sufficiently boosted it'll start one-shotting folks, so it'll attract a pile of PvP nerfs, and be back where it started.

  14. #174
    Seeing how strikingly disproportionate class design was at what's arguably the biggest class rework since the removal of the original talent trees, it is a failure of management. Brian Holinka is responsible for what the combat/class team does, he should have been on top of these design updates. And if he fails to manage that, shouldn't Ion point it out? How can they release a Hunter update every week, yet several other classes and specs barely had any work done, let alone communication?!
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Blizzard do what the players want all the time.

  15. #175
    Yeah I saw the blue post said something like this "Ret's were having too much fun, so in the same spirit of tuning as the removal of Long Arm of the Law, we've decided to reduce Holy Power accrual by 50%. This is more in line with the fantasy of being slow, weak, and left behind that we're targeting".

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Yeah I saw the blue post said something like this "Ret's were having too much fun, so in the same spirit of tuning as the removal of Long Arm of the Law, we've decided to reduce Holy Power accrual by 50%. This is more in line with the fantasy of being slow, weak, and left behind that we're targeting".
    They could remove the random ways to get holy power. That I wouldn't mind. I'm personally not a fan of the Conc randomly giving hopo thing. But the developers for ret just want us to suffer at this point. Do we know what took the spot of Spellwarding? Or did the talent choice just go away completely?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    I don't think it actually changes much - Zeal beats Fires, so we'll still take it, and Empyrean Power is actually quite strong so we'll want it anyway. It's a bit pointless, but doesn't really change anything.
    I mean, it made sense for Empyrean Power to lead into Tempest of the Lightbringer, now you have to take it to get a Templar's Verdict talent so if the fight is pure single target you now have a useless talent that you have to take. It made If they want to go this route they should also move Tempest and the Templar's Verdict talent.

  17. #177
    Empyrean Power is not useless for single target fights. A +25% damage Divine Storm is a decent chunk of damage, and it doesn't have to be used immediately so we can avoid wasting a Judgement buff on it. Unless we're absolutely GCD locked it's a pretty decent talent in terms of ST damage, enough to bump Crusader Strike's priority up to possibly above BoJ (especially with Art of War's nerf) depending on what BoJ talents you take. In any AoE fight is very good. With its low proc rate it doesn't feel great, but it is powerful.

    This is a problem with our builders doing so little damage and our spenders being so strong (relatively). It means that any talent that boosts Holy Power generation or outright grants use of a spender is very strong, and thus must have a low proc rate (Fire of Justice, Empyrean Power) or a major reduction in damage (Tempest of the Lightbringer) or it's just overpowering. About two-thirds of the value of hitting BoJ or Crusader strike comes from the Holy Power they generate, for example.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpcat View Post
    Seeing how strikingly disproportionate class design was at what's arguably the biggest class rework since the removal of the original talent trees, it is a failure of management. Brian Holinka is responsible for what the combat/class team does, he should have been on top of these design updates. And if he fails to manage that, shouldn't Ion point it out? How can they release a Hunter update every week, yet several other classes and specs barely had any work done, let alone communication?!
    Paladin feedback thread on Beta has had 700 player responses in the last 20 days with 0 Dev responses. Sad.
    Check out my Ret Paladin YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/VarabenGaming

    #RETPRESENT

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    Empyrean Power is not useless for single target fights. A +25% damage Divine Storm is a decent chunk of damage, and it doesn't have to be used immediately so we can avoid wasting a Judgement buff on it. Unless we're absolutely GCD locked it's a pretty decent talent in terms of ST damage, enough to bump Crusader Strike's priority up to possibly above BoJ (especially with Art of War's nerf) depending on what BoJ talents you take. In any AoE fight is very good. With its low proc rate it doesn't feel great, but it is powerful.

    This is a problem with our builders doing so little damage and our spenders being so strong (relatively). It means that any talent that boosts Holy Power generation or outright grants use of a spender is very strong, and thus must have a low proc rate (Fire of Justice, Empyrean Power) or a major reduction in damage (Tempest of the Lightbringer) or it's just overpowering. About two-thirds of the value of hitting BoJ or Crusader strike comes from the Holy Power they generate, for example.
    It will depend a lot on tuning. Don't forget the class tree has a talent that gives strength for using Crusader Strike so at the very least it doesn't feel as bad hitting that. Empyrean power could very well end up being useless on single target, We don't know yet. I just think the placement is weird.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Gasparde View Post
    At this point you can't tell me that they just don't care about Rets. Like, I'm not buying that.
    This is like targeted bullying at this point. There's no way they don't have a giant post-it hanging in there office, saying (in big letters) that Rets just must be fucked with.

    It's too much incompetence at once. Too much attention on specific parts of an otherwise entirely neglected spec at once.

    To look at Ret, the probably least brought spec, the probably least performing spec in history, and say that, after already taking away parts of their kit with the talent tree revamp, they've now decided to even take the one new utility toy away that might possibly perhaps eventually whocouldhaveknownaly given Ret an ever so slight chance at being relevant once or twice per tier. Someone very high up at Blizzard clearly hates Ret. There's no way this tree went live and Spellwarding were taken away if anyone at Blizzard gave even just the slightest fuck about this spec being able to find a group.
    I mean it is in a bad place but this comment is silly in a game where feral exists lmao. Also ret has actually seen occasional world first and high level arena play.

    That said, it does seem utterly pointless in DF unless it is overtuned

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