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  1. #21
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    Its usually what people brandy around when they want to flood the market with the working poor to destroy livelihoods.

    It's our generation " wont someone think of the children" it's a empty moralist scare mongering that is meaningless.
    The great replacement "theory" is deeply racist and peddled by fascists. To make it equivalent to "think about the children" is a very wide stretch. Also many fascist dictators were elected in a free democracy. Even the one in germany with the funny mustache.
    Last edited by Pannonian; 2022-07-28 at 11:45 AM. Reason: had to put theory in quotation marks

  2. #22
    Legendary! Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The great replacement "theory" is deeply racist and peddled by fascists. To make it equivalent to "think about the children" is a very wide stretch. Also many fascist dictators were elected in a free democracy. Even the one in germany with the funny mustache.
    This is highly misleading. Yes, he got elected, but after more or less brutally getting rid of any opposition, terrorizing people, making himself the only option left and while pumping propaganda for years. There was no free democracy at that point.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2022-07-28 at 12:15 PM.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  3. #23
    Elemental Lord Santti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    This is highly misleading. Yes, he got elected, but after more or less brutally getting rid of any opposition, terrorizing people, making himself the only option left and while pumping propaganda for years. There was no free democracy at that point.
    I don't quite remember. I'm not sure the Nazis really did much of that before Hitler was named the chancellor. Other than the Beer Hall Putsch, but I'm not so sure if that was all that worth it, at the time. Hindenburg resisted appointing Hitler the Chancellor, but other conservatives and such convinced him otherwise, in the vain hope that they could use Hitler and the Nazis for their own purposes. They were scared of the Communist party taking over.
    Last edited by Santti; 2022-07-28 at 12:37 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ransath View Post
    Money laundering, especially prior to his election? I couldn't give a flying fuck.

  4. #24
    Legendary! Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santti View Post
    I don't quite remember. I'm not sure the Nazis really did much of that before Hitler was named the chancellor. Other than the Beer Hall Putsch, but I'm not so sure if that was all that worth it, at the time. Hindenburg resisted appointing Hitler the Chancellor, but other conservatives and such convinced him otherwise, in the vain hope that they could use Hitler and the Nazis for their own purposes. They were scared of the Communist party taking over.
    They did after, but ye. There was little free democracy about all of this.

    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The great replacement "theory" is deeply racist and peddled by fascists. To make it equivalent to "think about the children" is a very wide stretch. Also many fascist dictators were elected in a free democracy. Even the one in germany with the funny mustache.
    You are trained very well.. no bad thoughts allowed in that head of your...

  6. #26
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    You are trained very well.. no bad thoughts allowed in that head of your...
    It's more that we're able to recognize irrationally hateful dogma for being exactly what it is. Those "bad thoughts" are allowed in our heads, but we're not letting them in, because they're so deeply nonsensical and unthinkingly hateful.

    Why would we choose to believe something so wrong, solely to fuel our hatred for innocent people? You'd have to be a racist to make that choice.


  7. #27
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    This is highly misleading. Yes, he got elected, but after more or less brutally getting rid of any opposition, terrorizing people, making himself the only option left and while pumping propaganda for years. There was no free democracy at that point.
    This is highly misleading. Yes he terrorized people, and got rid of the opposition. Nonetheless his party got elected numerous times - https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichs...M%C3%A4rz_1933 (while the article is in german, the graphs should speak for themself)

    There was opposition. And his first time being chancellor wasn't that undemocratic, maybe from todays perspective, but if we take modern standards not a lot of countries in the 30s would pass scrutiny.

    So i don't know what you mean there was no "free democracy" - what does this even mean? Was it a highly legitimate democratic election according to modern standards? no. Was the election of 1933 (march! not november) democratic? Definitely yes. Don't let the people of the hook - they wanted him.

    Edit: Sure it went very despotic very fast after 1933, and there wasn't a trace of democracy left 2 years later. Hitlers rise to power wasn't some violent mob seizing power (like they tried 22 in the bierhallputsch) but undermining and abusing democratic processes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    You are trained very well.. no bad thoughts allowed in that head of your...
    What is this supposed to mean? I don't really care which degenerated ideology you believe in - but if you use it for your populist politics riling up and endangering people, then i think that's a bad thing - yes. Sitting 50 km from the hungarian border the decline in human rights is quite egregious.
    Last edited by Pannonian; 2022-07-28 at 02:28 PM.

  8. #28
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    So i don't know what you mean there was no "free democracy" - what does this even mean? Was it a highly legitimate democratic election according to modern standards? no. Was the election of 1933 (march! not november) democratic? Definitely yes. Don't let the people of the hook - they wanted him.
    There's this weird tendency to try and forget that fascism is inherently populist in nature. It thrives through popular support. That's the origin of the term; "fascii" were small sticks, and the notion pushed by Mussolini that earned the movement its name was based on the metaphor that small sticks standing together were harder to break than each stick standing by itself.

    Fascism has always held broad appeal to certain types of people, that's why it's so dangerous.

    Which brings us right back around to why he's being invited to CPAC.


  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    You are trained very well.. no bad thoughts allowed in that head of your...
    Note how you refuse to address the fact that fascists being elected does not make them less fascist.

    Interesting.

  10. #30
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There's this weird tendency to try and forget that fascism is inherently populist in nature. It thrives through popular support. That's the origin of the term; "fascii" were small sticks, and the notion pushed by Mussolini that earned the movement its name was based on the metaphor that small sticks standing together were harder to break than each stick standing by itself.

    Fascism has always held broad appeal to certain types of people, that's why it's so dangerous.

    Which brings us right back around to why he's being invited to CPAC.
    I think this specific problem has a lot to do with hindsight. We know Nazis are evil, because of wars of aggression, holocaust, etc. - everyone knows this. So apart from a fringe portion of the population no one in their right mind would support them. So by that logic they could never have had popular support.

    What a lot of people ignore is that it always ramps up - that's why its so important to call it out early. If you don't call it out when they make stupid jokes about how brown immigrants don't fit into society, then it will be to late when the camps open up. That's the sad truth, because the moment they are in power its too late.

    That's btw. something that has been bothering me my whole life. For obvious reasons we learn a lot about this time in school - history and also political education, and in each and every discussion all of my class mates would go on about how they would have never supported them, or would have stood up, yadda yadda. My "luck" is that i had the chance to speak to a lot of people that lived at this time and how they perceived it, and though there is a lot of white washing, it shows how fast it can go, and with how little it starts.

    To illustrate this point, a story my grandmother told me.

    She was 15 when Austria was annexed/elected to join germany. When the rhetoric against jews ramped up, she talked to her mother what that meant, because her employer was a jew, friend of the family who often helped out the single mother. My great-grandmother replied that they only meant the bad jews, and they would never target their friend.

    People tend to ignore/explain away a lot of stupid shit.
    Last edited by Pannonian; 2022-07-28 at 02:45 PM.

  11. #31
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    I think this specific problem has a lot to do with hindsight. We know Nazis are evil, because of wars of aggression, holocaust, etc. - everyone know this. So apart from a fringe porition of the population no one in their right mind would support that. So by that logic they could never have had popular support.

    What a lot of people ignore is that it always ramps up - that's why its so important to call it out early. If you don't call it out when they make stupid jokes about how brown immigrants don't fit into society, then it will be to late when the camps open up. That's the sad truth, because the moment they are in power its too late.

    That's btw. something that has been bothering me my whole life. For obvious reasons we learn a lot of this time in school - history and also political education, and in all each and every discussion all of my class mates would go on about how they would have never supported them, or would have stood up, yadda yadda. My "luck" is that i had the chance to speak to a lot of people that lived at this time and how they perceived it, and though there is a lot of white washing, talking to people living through this time shows how fast it can got, and with how little it starts.
    One of the most intelligent things in The Boys is when the character Stormfront (a literal Nazi, like, buddied around with Goebbels back in the day Nazi) is talking about how she's gaining such influence over social media in the modern day, and she says the line "People love what I have to say. They believe it. They just don't like the word Nazi."

    We've been told Nazis were evil by so much media for the last 70 years. We've forgotten why they were evil. People's rejection of Nazism is too often just purely aesthetic; if you trade out the black uniforms and red armbands for camo and American flag pins, they can't recognize the same rhetoric coming out of the person's mouth.


  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I've not really been cheerleading for Trump in the last couple years though. Instead I've been cheerleading for a more non-political understanding of progress where it doesn't actually matter that much in regards to who is president.
    So, several years of making sure everything is on course for burning down, it's time to sit aside and ponder the meaning of life, so to say?

    I mean, could have just not done the first part, or could at least try to undo the damage now that it's done?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    True, I was just bored and tired but you are correct.

    Last edited by Thwart; Today at 05:21 PM. Reason: Infracted for flaming
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    millennials were the kids of the 9/11 survivors.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    It's kind of splitting the meaning to call a democratically elected leader a fascist. Not everyone is a fan of flooding the market to suppress wages and keep a slave style economy.
    Literally not happening. Hasn't ever really happened. Also the US needs immigrants to continue growing, as the US has always needed immigrants. It's just once those immigrants get here and start having kids, they forget they were immigrants and want to keep other immigrants out.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    Its usually what people brandy around when they want to flood the market with the working poor to destroy livelihoods.
    Literally a fiction in your head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    It's our generation " wont someone think of the children" it's a empty moralist scare mongering that is meaningless.
    What you wrote above, yes. It's empty scaremongering.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    One of the most intelligent things in The Boys is when the character Stormfront (a literal Nazi, like, buddied around with Goebbels back in the day Nazi) is talking about how she's gaining such influence over social media in the modern day, and she says the line "People love what I have to say. They believe it. They just don't like the word Nazi."

    We've been told Nazis were evil by so much media for the last 70 years. We've forgotten why they were evil. People's rejection of Nazism is too often just purely aesthetic; if you trade out the black uniforms and red armbands for camo and American flag pins, they can't recognize the same rhetoric coming out of the person's mouth.
    One of the reason is also people calling everyone that does not fit their views or opinions fascists or nazis.

  15. #35
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    One of the reason is also people calling everyone that does not fit their views or opinions fascists or nazis.
    Blame the right-wingers for this nonsense, by coining the term "feminazi" to slander feminists with.

    But in general, if you're being called a "fascist" or "Nazi" by a lot of different people in different context, it's almost certain you actually are a fascist or Nazi, and you're just whining about being accurately labelled; that your mask didn't hide you true identity.

    And if it's just some random nobody one time, shit, I've been called incorrect racial slurs and all kinds of other names by random idiots. That says more about them than I, and I've certainly never tried to argue that the labels were[ meaningless, it meant that one person was an idiot. But I could trivially point out how the accusation was nonsense; if you can't, well . . .


  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Blame the right-wingers for this nonsense, by coining the term "feminazi" to slander feminists with.

    But in general, if you're being called a "fascist" or "Nazi" by a lot of different people in different context, it's almost certain you actually are a fascist or Nazi, and you're just whining about being accurately labelled; that your mask didn't hide you true identity.

    And if it's just some random nobody one time, shit, I've been called incorrect racial slurs and all kinds of other names by random idiots. That says more about them than I, and I've certainly never tried to argue that the labels were[ meaningless, it meant that one person was an idiot. But I could trivially point out how the accusation was nonsense; if you can't, well . . .
    Nah, because as you said, people hate nazis or fascists (we have been fed by that, and for good reason), so it is far easier to paint your opponent as a nazi or fascist to win an argument. You deshumanize him and garner a lot of support instantly by doing that. So nope, wrong again.

  17. #37
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Nah, because as you said, people hate nazis or fascists (we have been fed by that, and for good reason), so it is far easier to paint your opponent as a nazi or fascist to win an argument. You deshumanize him and garner a lot of support instantly by doing that. So nope, wrong again.
    Nothing about those labels "dehumanize". You're still deflecting to protect Nazis and fascists. Like Orban.


  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    One of the reason is also people calling everyone that does not fit their views or opinions fascists or nazis.
    That's such fucking horseshit.

    If you do and say nazi and fascist things you get called a nazi and a fascist. JUST BECAUSE YOU SAY YOU AREN'T A NAZI OR FASCIST DOESN'T MAKE YOU NOT A NAZI OR A FASCIST.

    Someone saying- We should have less immigration - has to be followed by a WHY. If your why is shit like "We need to preserve our culture!" (which is just a more polite way of saying "preserve our race") or some other fascist nazi bullshit, you are a fucking nazi.

    Want to hear a none fascist/nazi argument for less immigration?

    Here, I'll give you one.

    Immigration from poorer countries towards richer countries can cause economic and social problems in the countries where the migrants are coming from, in the form of brain drain and loss of qualified, skilled or able bodied labor. A reasonable immigration policy should be established between the countries that receive the migrants and those that provide it by establishing temporary work permits where migrants get to earn money legally via wages that aren't undercutting local workers and that should be combined with measures that encourage investment from the richer country to the poorer countries so to help those workers stay home in future. So by creating a more equitable trading relationship and a system where investment and labor can more easily flow between those nations we discourage mass DESPERATION migration, prevent people from overstaying their Visas (because they can just get another one) and help those countries stabilize their economies by retaining skilled labor.

    Developed nations who absolutely love to endlessly bitch and moan about foreigners rarely fucking realize how much we are actually full on LEECHING OFF poorer countries.

    Nurses, doctors, engineers, technicians, plumbers etc. Often the countries of origin of these people have invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in the education and training of these people just to immediately lose them to a richer country.

    I live in Spain, something like a third of the doctors and nurses here are from South America due to the extremely liberal immigration system aimed at skilled professionals. Even more, during COVID Spain offered massive financial incentives for medical professionals from Latina America to move to Spain to staff regional and rural hospitals. Your average Colombian doctor in their early 30's a few years out of college makes 3 to 4 times here than what they would make in Colombia or whatnot while having access to better equipment and labor conditions.

    Meanwhile, back in Latin America there are huge shortages of medical staff.

    The problem with fascists, is that your arguments against immigration aren't based on stuff like "HUMAN WELL-BEING", you're just parroting ignorant xenophobic bullshit dumb farts like cUlTuREEE uWu.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    That's such fucking horseshit.

    If you do and say nazi and fascist things you get called a nazi and a fascist. JUST BECAUSE YOU SAY YOU AREN'T A NAZI OR FASCIST DOESN'T MAKE YOU NOT A NAZI OR A FASCIST.

    Someone saying- We should have less immigration - has to be followed by a WHY. If your why is shit like "We need to preserve our culture!" (which is just a more polite way of saying "preserve our race") or some other fascist nazi bullshit, you are a fucking nazi.

    Want to hear a none fascist/nazi argument for less immigration?

    Here, I'll give you one.

    Immigration from poorer countries towards richer countries can cause economic and social problems in the countries where the migrants are coming from, in the form of brain drain and loss of qualified, skilled or able bodied labor. A reasonable immigration policy should be established between the countries that receive the migrants and those that provide it by establishing temporary work permits where migrants get to earn money legally via wages that aren't undercutting local workers and that should be combined with measures that encourage investment from the richer country to the poorer countries so to help those workers stay home in future. So by creating a more equitable trading relationship and a system where investment and labor can more easily flow between those nations we discourage mass DESPERATION migration, prevent people from overstaying their Visas (because they can just get another one) and help those countries stabilize their economies by retaining skilled labor.

    Developed nations who absolutely love to endlessly bitch and moan about foreigners rarely fucking realize how much we are actually full on LEECHING OFF poorer countries.

    Nurses, doctors, engineers, technicians, plumbers etc. Often the countries of origin of these people have invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in the education and training of these people just to immediately lose them to a richer country.

    I live in Spain, something like a third of the doctors and nurses here are from South America due to the extremely liberal immigration system aimed at skilled professionals. Even more, during COVID Spain offered massive financial incentives for medical professionals from Latina America to move to Spain to staff regional and rural hospitals. Your average Colombian doctor in their early 30's a few years out of college makes 3 to 4 times here than what they would make in Colombia or whatnot while having access to better equipment and labor conditions.

    Meanwhile, back in Latin America there are huge shortages of medical staff.

    The problem with fascists, is that your arguments against immigration aren't based on stuff like "HUMAN WELL-BEING", you're just parroting ignorant xenophobic bullshit dumb farts like cUlTuREEE uWu.
    Case in point, thanks.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Nah, because as you said, people hate nazis or fascists (we have been fed by that, and for good reason), so it is far easier to paint your opponent as a nazi or fascist to win an argument. You deshumanize him and garner a lot of support instantly by doing that. So nope, wrong again.
    I mean...it could be because like...literally Nazi's are still around? And involved? And supporting Republicans/conservatives? That a close ally of Orban just resigned over his "Nazi speech"? I mean, there are a lot of actual Nazi's, and folks who hang around with actual Nazi's who are essentially Nazi's themselves. Because if you have 3 Nazi's and 5 other friends sitting at a table having an evening of beers, you have 8 Nazi's sitting at a table having an evening of beers.

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