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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    Because I'm not naive enough to think that if you raise wages for the majority of workers good wont immediately follow. People wont magically have more buying power it doesn't work that way.
    You are naive enough to believe that inflation is the result of wages. You just keep parroting the same thing over and over again. Eventually you'll get some infractions for trolling and then you can pat yourself on the back knowing that you stood up to the woke mob that make up MMOC's moderation team.

    You've been given plenty of opportunity to display some counter-research yet somehow it never arrives.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It literally does, and if you'd take even a few minutes to look at actual data
    At this point I'm fairly convinced he wouldn't know where to begin with, which is why he's still refusing to engage with any data whatsoever and instead resting purely on his received talking points.

  3. #223
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    At this point I'm fairly convinced he wouldn't know where to begin with, which is why he's still refusing to engage with any data whatsoever and instead resting purely on his received talking points.
    It's not just not knowing where to begin; look at the post where I broke down minimum wages, with a graph that showed inflation rates per year; I didn't directly link the timeline of minimum wage hikes, but I went over each of them in the response and you can double-check those pretty easily.

    He can't claim he doesn't know where to start, because I started it right there, and pointed out how no data points correlate in the way he claims, and he just ignored it.


  4. #224
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Let's move on and get back to the topic. Discussion about specifics can be fine, but the tangent has gone on long enough and isn't being properly tied to the topic of this thread.
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  5. #225
    Hell, let's use some actual math to dispel your point. This breakdown is sourced from Twitter, but that doesn't make the math any less accurate:

    Lemme do some quick back of the envelope math about wages. On a busy day at the pizza place, we'd have the following crew:
    • Drivers: $2/hr Tip Wage - 44 man-hours
    • Insiders: $8/hr - 20 man-hours
    • Managers: $12/hr - 22 man-hours

    For a total of ~$512. Aiming for ~15-20% of sales. That works out to ~17% on a ~$3000 night, so that's bang-on target.

    Let's say we raised everybody there to a $15/hr wage. We'd end up adding $778 to labor for the day. More than doubling! That sure sounds like a lot!

    But hang on a second. Let's assume for easy math that what we're selling is $10 one-topping large pizzas. For 3k, we're selling 300. We've got to divide up that 778 between the pizzas. That raises the price of each pizza from $10 to $12.59.

    But, here's something important. The price of a pizza has actually gone down. Remember, money isn't real! It's a representation of the time worked. The vast majority of the people we had been selling that pizza to weren't making $15 an hour before. We were in a college town, that manager wage of $12/hour was a /good/ wage. WE were buying that pizza.

    So, in terms of value:
    • The cost of the pizza is lower for a driver. The driver was probably, with tips, making 10-15/hour, but that depends on how good the night is - some nights, it might not be minimum wage. So, $7-15/hour. The pizza costs probably more than an hour of work. Now, if they're making 15, it costs 50 minutes of work. Reliably.
    • Likewise, for the manager, 50 minutes of labor. It's a few seconds more expensive now, but it's still right about ~83% of an hour.
    • For the insider, the cost of that pizza went from 75 minutes worth of labor, to 50 minutes of labor. It's 33% cheaper.

    There are some externalities - the price of the things we use to make the pizza will go up a bit, but not by much; farms are efficient as fuck, and farm workers process a truly staggering amount of ingredients per hour. It's ameliorated. The workers are making substantially more money. Their lives are better. They're happier. And all for an extra $2.59 per pizza, if the only place we're shunting this cost is direct to the customer. If we get rid of tips? 20% was pretty standard. So now, it's only .59 more.

    And now, those workers with more money - they're not putting it into savings accounts. They're buying the things they've just been making do without. Repairing their cars. Buying shit for their leisure time. Hell, FOOD - I /never/ went out to eat when I was working restaurants. God forbid, maybe they even make enough money to follow health code rules and actually go to the doctor when they get sick. Because right now they don't. The people making your food are doing so while sick. Constantly.

    It also means that rent in Charlotte ($1500 avg for a two-bedroom, so 750ish/person) goes from 60% of a full-time minimum wage's monthly take, to 29%. It cuts the cost of your rent in goddamn half. It's still not "affordable" by the standards of my parents' generation, but it means that a person making minimum wage can afford on ~1/3rd of their income to live with a roommate.

    That's what a $15/hour minimum wage means. You get to live with a basic human amount of dignity.

    And unless the landlord goddamn DOUBLES your rent (they would, the fuckers), it's still a good deal for you. Because the pizza didn't double in price. It went up by $0.59.
    https://twitter.com/NomeDaBarbarian/...13493229146115

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    Hell, let's use some actual math to dispel your point. This breakdown is sourced from Twitter, but that doesn't make the math any less accurate:


    https://twitter.com/NomeDaBarbarian/...13493229146115
    But the invisible hand of the free market won't be able to forcefully slide into the workers and dryfist them while the owner makes mad bank.
    Won't someone think of the poor owners?
    Those lobbyists and bribed politicians aren't cheap you heartless bastard!
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    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok


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  7. #227
    Old God Captain N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopymonster View Post
    But the invisible hand of the free market won't be able to forcefully slide into the workers and dryfist them while the owner makes mad bank.
    Won't someone think of the poor owners?
    Those lobbyists and bribed politicians aren't cheap you heartless bastard!
    You'll get the typical response of "They're Franchise Owners" they don't make the big corporate money. This flies in the face at what the actual cash down payment one even needs to become a franchise owner, and the overhead is some unreachable plateau that the owner will be unable to purchase his supplies (from the company they're a franchisee of) if they pay employees decent salaries.
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  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain N View Post
    You'll get the typical response of "They're Franchise Owners" they don't make the big corporate money. This flies in the face at what the actual cash down payment one even needs to become a franchise owner, and the overhead is some unreachable plateau that the owner will be unable to purchase his supplies (from the company they're a franchisee of) if they pay employees decent salaries.
    Eeeeehhhhhhhhhhhhh, it depends. Subway is a good example of how corporations lure in franchisees and can fuck them over bigtime (whole-ass Jon Oliver episode on it). It's like buying a taxi medallion and then finding out you're getting fucked by rideshare companies. A LOT of these folks (franchise owners, taxi drivers etc.) take out big loans from friends and family, plus banks if they can, to afford the initial costs with the promise that they will be able to pay it off over time. And many may not be allowed to set their own wages due to agreements with corporate.

    Not a blanket defense, but this is a huge overgeneralization here. A lot of franchise owners are decent folks that are just in an absolutely fucked situation and trying to do their best. A lot are truly dogshit human beings, too.

  9. #229
    Old God Captain N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Eeeeehhhhhhhhhhhhh, it depends. Subway is a good example of how corporations lure in franchisees and can fuck them over bigtime (whole-ass Jon Oliver episode on it). It's like buying a taxi medallion and then finding out you're getting fucked by rideshare companies. A LOT of these folks (franchise owners, taxi drivers etc.) take out big loans from friends and family, plus banks if they can, to afford the initial costs with the promise that they will be able to pay it off over time. And many may not be allowed to set their own wages due to agreements with corporate.

    Not a blanket defense, but this is a huge overgeneralization here. A lot of franchise owners are decent folks that are just in an absolutely fucked situation and trying to do their best. A lot are truly dogshit human beings, too.
    While I'm not going to disagree that Corporations can fuck over their franchise owners, I would expect the owners to understand what they're getting into when they sign a contract to become owners. If they're borrowing money from friends and family to start their own business and the first thing they're thinking is -- How can I screw my workers so that I benefit from this the most then fuck them. If they're genuinely trying to be good employers and they're falling on rough times (like COVID) I can sympathize with them. Unfortunately we continue to see more and more "People just don't want to work" bullshit being parroted and a lot of those jobs are fast food chains with franchise owners.
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  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain N View Post
    While I'm not going to disagree that Corporations can fuck over their franchise owners, I would expect the owners to understand what they're getting into when they sign a contract to become owners.
    Sure, that's assuming that the contract isn't intentionally opaque. Or that corporate head office doesn't go back on their word on some things like having competing stores very close to each other so they're essentially taking business away. Because we all know that corporations have never reneged on agreements or been dishonest with people before : P

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain N View Post
    Unfortunately we continue to see more and more "People just don't want to work" bullshit being parroted and a lot of those jobs are fast food chains with franchise owners.
    To a point with some, yes. But again, I'd suggest finding the Jon Oliver episode on just how insanely shitty some of these corporations like Subway are to their franchisees. This includes things like non-disparagement clauses preventing them from saying anything even remotely critical about the corporation, so they have to tow the company lie or lose their franchise. Which will financially break a lot of franchise owners, and leaves the folks who are working there potentially shit outta luck for a while in case they can find a new franchisee to take over, or simply shutter the store altogether.

    It's a lot more nuanced than just "Franchisees are an extension of corporate power and fuckery."

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It literally does, and if you'd take even a few minutes to look at actual data rather than repeating propaganda talking points over and over, you'd know better.

    You can only hold the position you do by literally ignoring the facts. As I've tried to present, and you intentionally ignored, because the facts don't support your empty, baseless beliefs. Economics isn't a religion, dude, you need facts to back your case.
    Are you still trying to imagine a world where you can simply raise wages and magically expect every business to lose money through increased costs without trying to profit from it?

    I'm shattering your frankky naive world view with undeniable truths. Rent will go up. Homes will become more expensive and the cost of food will increase.

    You either would need a heavily regulated market or to somehow extract greed and laziness from all mankind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    You are naive enough to believe that inflation is the result of wages. You just keep parroting the same thing over and over again. Eventually you'll get some infractions for trolling and then you can pat yourself on the back knowing that you stood up to the woke mob that make up MMOC's moderation team.

    You've been given plenty of opportunity to display some counter-research yet somehow it never arrives.
    I've not made that point nor would I... I'm saying arbitrarily raising wages would cause inflation.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    I've not made that point nor would I... I'm saying arbitrarily raising wages would cause inflation.
    The only point you've made is that you'll stubbornly cling to your beliefs in the face of all evidence to the contrary, without providing a sliver of evidence of your own beyond "just trust me bro."

  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    Are you still trying to imagine a world where you can simply raise wages and magically expect every business to lose money through increased costs without trying to profit from it?
    There's no "imagining" necessary because in the real world most prices are determined by what the market is willing to tolerate for the good or service in question. And in the real world, every time there's been an increase in minimum wage there hasn't been a massive set of price hikes or spikes in unemployment.

    I'm shattering your frankky naive world view with undeniable truths. Rent will go up. Homes will become more expensive and the cost of food will increase.
    1) Again, this hasn't happened historically.
    2) This is why rather than having to revisit the minimum wage constantly you tie it to the cost of living so it rises automatically whenever said cost is inflated, thus removing the incentive to price gouge.

    You're welcome to actually provide examples of what you're insisting will happen, but thus far it's just been repeating the same set of right wing bullshit talking points without any data to back them up so I won't hold my breath. Rofl.
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  14. #234
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Edit: Just saw mod message.

    I'll just say what I said earlier and denote that this political party is going to be nothing for than a failed attempt. And even if it gains traction, it's simply going to be a party between Democrats and Republicans, which is still too far right.
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  15. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    I've not made that point nor would I... I'm saying arbitrarily raising wages would cause inflation.
    Source required for continued discussion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok


    If you look, you can see the straw man walking a red herring up a slippery slope coming to join this conversation.

  16. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Edit: Just saw mod message.

    I'll just say what I said earlier and denote that this political party is going to be nothing for than a failed attempt. And even if it gains traction, it's simply going to be a party between Democrats and Republicans, which is still too far right.
    Yeah the party platform right now just looks like vapid slogans and buzzwords, and trying to play the 'absolute center' game with critical social issues isn't going to win them any favors.

  17. #237
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    Are you still trying to imagine a world where you can simply raise wages and magically expect every business to lose money through increased costs without trying to profit from it?
    Go look up minimum wage hikes in history, and then look at inflation rates for those and the following years.

    I've done this.

    There's zero correlation. Sometimes inflation went up, sometimes it went down. There was zero cause and effect.

    You've obviously done zero actual research, and just claim it's true because you saw and agree with posts on twitter.
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  18. #238
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Mod warnings aren't optional suggestions. Take it to PMs if it's that important to you and get back on topic.
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  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by CastletonSnob View Post
    "Liberals in America would be far-right in Europe!".

    Yeah, no. There are some FAR-right politicians in Europe. The people who say this need to educate themselves on European politics. Europe has plenty of right-wing politicians.
    Are you talking about the politicians or the voters? There's a difference there.
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  20. #240
    The Forward party's ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to their newsletter.
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