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  1. #41
    Pandaren Monk meathead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    It was a fully geared dual glaive Warrior, maybe he previously played tank and rerolled Fury and either way it just proves my point that it doesn't matter when the best classic guild has speedruns including "not optimal race" players. The racial situation does not change between TBC and WOTLK for Warrior. Orc/Troll remain the best in PVE and Orc/Tauren remain the best in PVP but no more so than in TBC.
    humans have the best pvp racial that allows for two dps trinkets
    thats why most re rolled human in wrath
    so yeah race does matter in wrath but not as much as what class you play = op'ed dks and pallys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voidillusion View Post
    I'd say that if you really have to ask about races then they probably wont mater much to you, just play wtv you think is cool.

    However, if you do think min/max is important then yeah they matter, quite a bit.

    Since you mentioned Warrior, in LK Orc will keep the extra expertise when using axes, and the dps CD bloodfury will be enhanced so that it doesnt reduces healing received when you use it. So yeah, it matters.
    i dont think bloodfury for orcs scales as good/high as pve dps trinkets in wrath right? so humans would still get more from their racial.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    i dont think bloodfury for orcs scales as good/high as pve dps trinkets in wrath right? so humans would still get more from their racial.
    Don't quite get what you're saying, elaborate pls.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    For PvP, Undead becomes more acceptable, Arms warriors lose access to Deathwish...
    Swapping Sweeping Strikes and Deathwish was the dumbest change that was ever implemented in the entire lifespan of TBC IMO. I wonder what their rationale behind it was at the time.

    They threw that change in during the ZA patch and then reverted it for Wrath.

    Anyway, Undead for PvP is definitely the way to go and can make a huge difference.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by voidillusion View Post
    Don't quite get what you're saying, elaborate pls.
    He is talking about pvp. Because orc racial is a flat amount of ap/sp it won’t scale as well as trinkets because if let’s say orc racial gives you 200 sp in season5 gear it will still give you 200sp in season 8 gear even though in season 8 a trinket will give you an astronomically higher amount of sp.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by WaltherLeopold View Post
    . Race can be important for your performance, if you care about performance.
    It's not that important, the difference at T7 between a fully BIS Orc/Undead with optimal play is around 1%, or about 50-60dps on ST. If you're playing the game asking questions like "what is the best race" it really makes no damn bit of difference at all. Nobody picked Tauren in Classic just so they could outrange strider fears on Vashj and tank them like Preach, what a ridiculous reason to suggest someone would pick a Tauren, especially given you can achieve the same thing with costumes.

    Plenty of Taurens with 99% parses are ahead of Orcs. If you're playing in a top guild you probably pick the optimal race, it's irrelevant if you're just clearing content and also unnecessary to chase high parses. Nobody is even debating if some races are better than others, we're debating whether it really matters in the grand scheme of playing the game as a Warrior.

    It doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    humans have the best pvp racial that allows for two dps trinkets
    thats why most re rolled human in wrath
    so yeah race does matter in wrath but not as much as what class you play = op'ed dks and pallys.

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    Good luck playing a Human Horde Warrior, lol.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2022-08-03 at 05:17 PM.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcnally86 View Post
    I was asking the question because I did not know when it mattered. Thank you for telling me I should not have asked though.

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    Thanks for the information. I see I would have to maybe coordinate it with gear which I definitely will not be doing.

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    I cannot think of any situation where that answer helps.
    some things are nice for getting a little more dps boost for some stuff. for horde hunters troll is pretty nice due to berserking and affinity for bow. add skinning into it for the master of anatomy bonus to crit and its a nice flat hands off damage bonus. passives to weapon skill and things like that are nice for some classes but overall arent game breaking. what i always did was look at teh class i want to play and then look up what races got bonuses to teh class weapon type. then a skill that adds into it somehow. not sure of that helps but thats my 2 cents. good luck and have fun!!
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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    It's not that important, the difference at T7 between a fully BIS Orc/Undead with optimal play is around 1%, or about 50-60dps on ST. If you're playing the game asking questions like "what is the best race" it really makes no damn bit of difference at all. Nobody picked Tauren in Classic just so they could outrange strider fears on Vashj and tank them like Preach, what a ridiculous reason to suggest someone would pick a Tauren, especially given you can achieve the same thing with costumes.

    Plenty of Taurens with 99% parses are ahead of Orcs. If you're playing in a top guild you probably pick the optimal race, it's irrelevant if you're just clearing content and also unnecessary to chase high parses. Nobody is even debating if some races are better than others, we're debating whether it really matters in the grand scheme of playing the game as a Warrior.

    It doesn't.
    I never suggested that someone picks tauren for its hit box potential, but you made a confused statement as to why someone on a Progress speedrun was Tauren and I explained to you the potential use case of Tauren, and how an Alliance player got it. The latter seemed to be completely lost on you.

    also show your math on orc racials only being 1% dps increase
    Last edited by WaltherLeopold; 2022-08-03 at 06:00 PM.

  8. #48
    The latter seemed to be completely lost on you.
    No I'm aware I mistook the costume for Progress (an alliance guild) doing a Horde run, but that detail is actually irrelevant. If I had been aware of that when I posted it I would have still made the exact same point, with the exact same opinions using a different guild/run/player as an example.

    The point stands, the example was a mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by WaltherLeopold View Post
    also show your math on orc racials only being 1% dps increase
    I didn't use math, I used Landsouls sheet. The value of the racials depends other factors like the current gear equipped so it's not static either, are you for some reason disputing that it's around 1%? This is also completely besides the point that most of the people in the thread have made, racials should not be the reason you decide not to make an Undead Warrior. If I were to play Undead instead of Orc it would not significantly affect me in any way whatsoever.

    If every Orc Warrior in a Horde Speedrun was instead an Undead, your speedrun results will not be any different because it's massively insignificant in the grand scheme of the run. Now forget about speedrunning and think of a normal player? How does it matter at all?

    It doesn't.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2022-08-03 at 08:51 PM.
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  9. #49
    ONLY FOR POTENTIAL DK'S:

    While it's a very edge case... currently, meta wise, if you're horde side rolling a DK for dps - troll or GTFO.
    Troll racial + recent ghoul AI fix (they attack properly now rather than having a stutter) makes the troll racial INCREDIBLY OP on almost all fights. They're in a different league entirely on short fights, still winning on longer ones.

    For alliance (again talking DK) ... it tends to depend on how your guild is for spacegoats.
    If you will likely have a spacegoat in your group - human. If you won't - spacegoat.
    Basically the 1% melee hit chance is a buff that works over the whole expansion. Towards the end of wrath, DK's will be forced to use axes as there's no good mace/sword drops so the human mace/sword expertise racial becomes useless. At that point it's a free "pvp trinket" racial vs 1% hit...
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  10. #50
    I don't think race is particularly important in this regard. I also played as undead and had no restrictions on my senses at all

  11. #51
    Pandaren Monk meathead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somic View Post
    He is talking about pvp. Because orc racial is a flat amount of ap/sp it won’t scale as well as trinkets because if let’s say orc racial gives you 200 sp in season5 gear it will still give you 200sp in season 8 gear even though in season 8 a trinket will give you an astronomically higher amount of sp.
    correct! BF does not scale like trinkets do

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    It's not that important, the difference at T7 between a fully BIS Orc/Undead with optimal play is around 1%, or about 50-60dps on ST. If you're playing the game asking questions like "what is the best race" it really makes no damn bit of difference at all. Nobody picked Tauren in Classic just so they could outrange strider fears on Vashj and tank them like Preach, what a ridiculous reason to suggest someone would pick a Tauren, especially given you can achieve the same thing with costumes.

    Plenty of Taurens with 99% parses are ahead of Orcs. If you're playing in a top guild you probably pick the optimal race, it's irrelevant if you're just clearing content and also unnecessary to chase high parses. Nobody is even debating if some races are better than others, we're debating whether it really matters in the grand scheme of playing the game as a Warrior.

    It doesn't.



    Good luck playing a Human Horde Warrior, lol.
    what do you mean good luck?
    you sound like there is not a massive 99% ally server right now for TBC that will be wrath server soon, same for horde...

    when wrath was live humans were the most played countless rerollers went ally for human racial
    only thing stopping that now is no fraction change service for wrath...yet and hopefully they dont allow one.
    wrath is beyond broken balance wise in every shape and form of it pvp and pve not allowing fraction changes is good but blizz loses $$$ from not doing it,so we will see.

    alot of people picked cow for the bigger hit box back in the day

    race does matter but class matters way more in wrath

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    what do you mean good luck?
    you sound like there is not a massive 99% ally server right now for TBC that will be wrath server soon, same for horde..
    It doesn't matter that Human has the best PvP racials with a meaningful advantage if you've chosen to play Horde, Human isn't an option.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  13. #53
    It doesn't.

    /End thread


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  14. #54
    Human gets way way way more strong in PvP, you're at a distinct disadvantage if you aren't playing human (unless your class cant be human of course). Shadowmeld gets massively buffed and is probably the 2nd best racial in PvP but you have to be very skilled to use it optimally.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusken View Post
    The harsh truth is; if you have to ask, it doesn't matter.
    Harsh, but quite true

  16. #56
    Differences are pretty negligible.

    Orc is nice because you'll ultimately want Shadowmourne. It's a pretty small difference though. You need 213 to expertise cap in WotLK. With the 5 free expertise you get, that drops to 172 rating. So you get about ~40 stat points you can redistribute into things like str/ap/arp/haste/crit.

    Troll gets a 3 min haste CD which lines up perfectly with Death Wish, so that'll be a minor dps buff too.

    Tauren & Forsaken get nothing special DPS wise.

    These numbers are pretty minor. If I run my warrior through a sim and give myself 5 expertise worth of other stats, it ups my dps by about 1.6%. Since warriors usually dual wield, your expertise values are different for each weapon if you have a racial, so that value can be even lower if you're not dual wielding axes. That's for Orcs. Which isn't super reliable since your BiS weapon is not always an axe. Pre-BiS is mace, Naxx is Axe, Ulduar is Sword or Mace, ToGC is Axe or Mace, ICC is maces until Shadowmourne.

    Troll vs Undead right now is a 0.9% difference on my warrior's gear. Even smaller than Orc.

    I'd say, for Horde, Orc > Troll > Blood Elf >= Undead >= Tauren.

    I personally would prefer a blood elf for the AoE silence that can be useful in raids/dungeons. Undead is decent with a situational CC break, and Tauren is the worst since war stomp is next to useless in group content due to DR.
    Last edited by God Save The King; 2022-08-08 at 11:18 PM.
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  17. #57
    Cata and MoP was when racials were at their strongest.

    It was nigh impossible to rank as a caster without being a Troll.

    The combination of Berserking, Soul Swap (Lock spell in MoP) and really strong Int procs from trinkets was the reason why snapshotting was removed from the game.

    Both Blood Fury and Berserking was also buffed every single expansion until Cata, for reasons unknown.
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  18. #58
    Pandaren Monk meathead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    correct! BF does not scale like trinkets do

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    what do you mean good luck?
    you sound like there is not a massive 99% ally server right now for TBC that will be wrath server soon, same for horde...

    when wrath was live humans were the most played countless rerollers went ally for human racial
    only thing stopping that now is no fraction change service for wrath...yet and hopefully they dont allow one.
    wrath is beyond broken balance wise in every shape and form of it pvp and pve not allowing fraction changes is good but blizz loses $$$ from not doing it,so we will see.

    alot of people picked cow for the bigger hit box back in the day

    race does matter but class matters way more in wrath
    i spoke to soon!blue post!
    Race and Faction Change
    While it won’t be ready for our launch in September, we have changed our minds on this, and we’re working on adding the Race and Faction change as a paid service in a future patch.

    Originally, we planned not to offer Race and Faction change at all, because it felt like it removed some of that fantasy feeling of having dramatically different physical attributes that affect your gameplay. We were also a little worried about players chasing the “flavor of the month” in terms of racial abilities However, we’re convinced by the argument that being able to play with your friends is more important, and that you should be able to bring your accomplishments with you when you do. This turns out to be the same tradeoff provided by transferring between realms, which is already available as a paid service, so it makes sense to make the same decision with respect to Race and Faction change.

    In short, this fits our aim to nurture and protect social experiences, so we’ll work on it for an upcoming patch.


    i called it! they want fraction change so blizz can make $ from it!
    easy to see why so many walked away from the game when this shit was live!

  19. #59
    Human is broken for PVP and Blizzard is bringing in race/faction change because they know they will profit off of people swapping to Human. I knew they would add in faction change when they didn't nerf every man for himself.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by ThrashMetalFtw View Post
    Both Blood Fury and Berserking was also buffed every single expansion until Cata, for reasons unknown.
    Generally speaking, they were just made more user friendly so to speak.
    Blood fury had its heal debuff removed and taken off the GCD (also made them useful for casters, but that's not a straight buff for everyone).
    Ask any Healer on Horde about their opinion on Blood fury, the answer will be almost universally negative.

    Berserking was simply given a flat effect rather than one that scales with your health, in Classic and TBC the Haste buff scaled with your current % HP, ranging from 10-30%.
    So technically speaking, you could get even more Haste out of it in Classic and TBC if you dipped low enough, 20% is just the obvious average value.

    Those racials are ironically not that OP in TBC because of those reasons, PvE wise racials barely matter in TBC.
    Quote Originally Posted by pinglong View Post
    Human is broken for PVP and Blizzard is bringing in race/faction change because they know they will profit off of people swapping to Human. I knew they would add in faction change when they didn't nerf every man for himself.
    I'd call out Blizzard greed whenever i see but frankly a lot of people were asking for it.
    For example, i've seen quite a few very intelligent rogues that rolled Undead because PvP, then realized that PvP isn't their thing and now want to swap over to Troll without rolling a new character.

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