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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Noctiphobia View Post
    In the current WoW, leveling is trivial. In past WoW, leveling was mostly tedious, not difficult. Almost all deaths were caused by impatience, like aggroing too many mobs, trying to move past something, not taking a mana break when needed, etc. The actual content was never difficult, since the mobs during leveling lacked (and still lack, for the most part) any mechanics. And the "figuring out on your own" part (before thottbot/wowhead) was just finding the right mob to kill. Again, not hard. Just a tedious waste of time.
    I can understand your point to a degree, but I remember in vanilla practicing blizzard kiting on my mage when I first got the spell and the game was still so new not many players knew it was a thing. Learning pathing, learning how much mana I needed to kill X number of mobs, etc. And again if you make the game without level caps, and make ALL content the same level and send folks through the story of each and every zone? I could get on board with that. But players don't like not feeling any sort of progression. All of the MMOs that I know, that are like that, are not popular and one of the main complaints from their player base is lack of progression. Guild wars 2 comes to mind.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Daffan View Post
    What and how does this even counter what I am saying.

    FF leveling is much different, with an actual narrative (although still grinding dungeon a lot). So what? Does that invalidate what the players or Blizzard thinks about WoW leveling currently? On top of that having ability to level multiple classes on 1 char to pad out the time/enjoy multiple on 1 persona, WoW does not have that either.
    "WoW takes more than four hours to get to max level, unless you buy a skip which is greedy. This is bad."
    "FF14 takes hundreds of hours to do the MSQ, unless you buy a skip which is somehow not greedy. This is good."
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    "WoW takes more than four hours to get to max level, unless you buy a skip which is greedy. This is bad."
    "FF14 takes hundreds of hours to do the MSQ, unless you buy a skip which is somehow not greedy. This is good."
    Yeah sure, but can you be a catgirl in WoW?

    Checkmate, atheists.

    OT: It should take anywhere between 2 and 2 million hours to level.

  4. #184
    This thread still going? wow.

    Leveling exists in the game because the game is about progression. You level to experience the story, and learn your class in chunks. Its just you progressing from absolute zero to being ready for "current content" at which point you continue leveling but this time via itemlevels, quest-chains and raiding. Every single thing you do in the game is some kind of progression, it just happens that you start out by leveling.

    Next post is going to be "Why does gearing exist? Just let me into the mythic raids and let everyone have equal level gear already! Better yet do away with classes!"

  5. #185
    Different games. Final fantasy teaches you your class as you level and gives you new mechanics of increasing difficulty.

    WoW never does that... you can easily hit max level using whatever the game assigned your number 2 key. I'm not saying final fantasy is a harder game. Overall it isnt but leveling serves a purpose.

  6. #186
    More + 4 hours?? I don't understand what you're asking

  7. #187
    PSA: Some players like leveling...

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Stricks View Post
    PSA: Some players like leveling...
    Some people will like anything. That isn't an argument for it. Remember all the people screaming they wanted meanful choices with shadowlands?

    ...where are they now?

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Some people will like anything. That isn't an argument for it. Remember all the people screaming they wanted meanful choices with shadowlands?

    ...where are they now?
    And you are among those who doesn't. Your questioning the leveling length is as meaningless as their "liking anything".

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Different games. Final fantasy teaches you your class as you level and gives you new mechanics of increasing difficulty.
    Not really, no. There are very few roadblocks in MSQ or normal content that doesnt force you to know how your class plays and you can get by very very easily by minimal knowledge.

    There is a lot of players out there who can barely play their jobs at level 90 (mostly centralized around RP worlds, but not here nor there). In all honesty, Hall of the Novice should be required and built upon rather than what it is now.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodkin View Post
    This is exactly were the problems start: the game is no longer designed for the entertainment of the consumer, but as a revenue generator for investors. Thus, it will over time lose it's appeal and entertainment value and so it's revenue as players leave. WoW's biggest danger to it's continued existence isn't just the playerbase leaving, it's the playerbase loosing trust in the company that it would continue to treat WoW with the same values it has done in the past. Players that leave out of boredom will come back if the game is fixed, players that leave because they no longer trust the company/devs will bot come back unless structural changes are made to both the game and the company.
    First - use paragraphs.

    Second - you are wrong. Every business is ran like this. Believe it or not - you pay the salary of a dev at Blizzard.

    Third - the Blizzard stock recently outperformed the entire competition. If anything - this shows more people are playing and new people are trying the products.
    Last edited by HansOlo; 2022-08-12 at 01:57 PM.

  12. #192
    Bloodsail Admiral bloodkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    First - use paragraphs.

    Second - you are wrong. Every business is ran like this. Believe it or not - you pay the salary of a dev at Blizzard.

    Third - the Blizzard stock recently outperformed the entire competition. If anything - this shows more people are playing and new people are trying the products.
    How exactly am I wrong? Your argument boils down to 'it be like dat'. If a piece of mutable media such as an MMO is slowly but surely made to be an entirely different player experience that has not improved or has become less desirable than it used to be, then it stands to reason that it will perform worse as customers stop playing the game and leave. It's even worse when a company looses the trust of it's main customer base due to mismanagement and abuses (either within or outside of the company) and acting in bad faith. Whether you like it or not, blizz has absolutely demonstrated abuse to it's own employees and the current state of the game is lackluster in comparison to previous iterations, and thus also mismanaged. I don't mind paying for a game if I can trust it's devs to continue to deliver high quality content but blizz hasn't been performing up to the standards that I have come to expect from them. I also know for a fact that many other people agree with this sentiment to some degree as 'wow refugee' has become an actual thing for many other MMO's that used to be in wow's shadow. Also, blizzard stock performance =/= WoW's performance, if anything WoW hasn't been their biggest earning game for a while, combine that with the recent release of diablo makes for a very poor argument.

    And just for your reading comprehension, here's a nice paragraph.
    'Something's awry.' -Duhgan 'Bel' beltayn

    'A Man choses, a Slave obeys.' -Andrew Rayn

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodkin View Post
    How exactly am I wrong? Your argument boils down to 'it be like dat'. If a piece of mutable media such as an MMO is slowly but surely made to be an entirely different player experience that has not improved or has become less desirable than it used to be, then it stands to reason that it will perform worse as customers stop playing the game and leave. It's even worse when a company looses the trust of it's main customer base due to mismanagement and abuses (either within or outside of the company) and acting in bad faith. Whether you like it or not, blizz has absolutely demonstrated abuse to it's own employees and the current state of the game is lackluster in comparison to previous iterations, and thus also mismanaged. I don't mind paying for a game if I can trust it's devs to continue to deliver high quality content but blizz hasn't been performing up to the standards that I have come to expect from them. I also know for a fact that many other people agree with this sentiment to some degree as 'wow refugee' has become an actual thing for many other MMO's that used to be in wow's shadow. Also, blizzard stock performance =/= WoW's performance, if anything WoW hasn't been their biggest earning game for a while, combine that with the recent release of diablo makes for a very poor argument.

    And just for your reading comprehension, here's a nice paragraph.
    I can't read more than 2sec, before quitting the attempt. This is not an insult, it just feels like going throu a plate of shit. So try again.

    My arguments are based on the stock market - you are talking about customers, who are turning Blizzard down(or vice versa) - the consequence you mentioned is not true. They are growing right now and they are attracting new players and they are expected to grow even more. Blizzard is doing just fine(for a fact better than any expectation), regardless of recent events.
    Last edited by HansOlo; 2022-08-18 at 11:51 AM.

  14. #194
    So in this thread its either;

    1. Make a loooooooooooooooong MSQ that takes forever to complete
    or
    2. Make every mob more and more challenging as you level up, forcing you to use your whole spellbook in order to make it.

    Option 1 would melt down the playerbase in wow. The game has more or less never been about long ass MSQ quests that takes forever to complete. Well, atleast not in game. The overall "story" arcs in wow span decades, but require little playtime ingame.

    Option 2 could be interesting and a more viable one. Thing is, these things happen at max level but rarely why leveling. It kind of sucks, but after going through the leveling process a couple of times.. it gets tedious, you just want it over with. It would also require a big diversity in mobs in order for every class & spec to use whatever toolkit they have available, a whole sack of balancing issues.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TidalConflux View Post
    Not really, no. There are very few roadblocks in MSQ or normal content that doesnt force you to know how your class plays and you can get by very very easily by minimal knowledge.

    There is a lot of players out there who can barely play their jobs at level 90 (mostly centralized around RP worlds, but not here nor there). In all honesty, Hall of the Novice should be required and built upon rather than what it is now.
    MSQ in FF14 teaches you very little. You get by just fine with minimum knowledge/skill. As with most MMORPGs when it comes to leveling & story content. Its not supposed to be a huge dick in the ass. The strength of MSQ in FF14 is not skill required, but the story told.

    Honestly, I have no idea why people want leveling to be very difficult. If people want challenges, theres plenty of games out there for it.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodkin View Post
    Players that leave out of boredom will come back if the game is fixed, players that leave because they no longer trust the company/devs will bot come back unless structural changes are made to both the game and the company.
    i doubt many players care about the company past their entertainment, so the amount of people leaving out of boredom might be high, but amount of people leaving bcs of some internal shit at blizz? that is almost certainly negligible...
    ofc i dont have proof, but remember how people "boycoted" blizz over blizchung and other shit in the past? literaly made no difference in revenue or MAUs or any other statistics, or ingame... people were only whining of boredom, or bcs hating blizz is "mainstream", not bcs they actualy cared, the moment blizz released new content all those players appalled of things came runing back...

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    i doubt many players dont care about the company past their entertainment, so the amount of people leaving out of boredom might be high, but amount of people leaving bcs of some internal shit at blizz is almost certainly negligible...
    ofc i dont have proof, but remember how people "boycoted" blizz over blizchung and other shit in the past? literaly made no difference in revenue or MAUs or any other statistics, or ingame... people were only whining of boredom, not that they actualy cared, the moment they released new content all they players appalled of things came runing back...
    Its rather simple;
    If Blizzard makes a great xpac with DF, players will be back. For the last couple of years lots have gotten the opportunity of taking the "moral high ground" because of shit happening at Blizzard. At the very least, a "good" excuse to leave the game. Call it addiction or whatever, but I think some people needed that in order to actually quit.

    But, these players are one good xpac from returning. It could even take just one badass cinematic and they are back.

    Just to add one thing; Several well known content creators left wow after what happend(can understand that) and swore they were done with the game. Now DF is drawing closer, and they are back at it. It is what it is.
    Last edited by crusadernero; 2022-08-18 at 12:36 PM.

  17. #197
    Bloodsail Admiral bloodkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    I can't read more than 2sec, before quitting the attempt. This is not an insult, it just feels like going throu a plate of shit. So try again.

    My arguments are based on the stock market - you are talking about customers, who are turning Blizzard down(or vice versa) - the consequence you mentioned is not true. They are growing right now and they are attracting new players and they are expected to grow even more. Blizzard is doing just fine(for a fact better than any expectation), regardless of recent events.
    If it's not meant like an insult, than don't make it look like one. I'm not going to reply again if you regurgitate the same arguments, not worth my time.

    I was talking about something else than just blizz's stock performance but rather retail WoW's poor perfomance. Both retail wow and overwatch (just to add another example of blizzard's recently poor management) are not well connected to their respective playerbases and could be far more profitable. Although blizz as a whole is performing good that doesn't mean that individual games are performing good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    i doubt many players care about the company past their entertainment, so the amount of people leaving out of boredom might be high, but amount of people leaving bcs of some internal shit at blizz? that is almost certainly negligible...
    ofc i dont have proof, but remember how people "boycoted" blizz over blizchung and other shit in the past? literaly made no difference in revenue or MAUs or any other statistics, or ingame... people were only whining of boredom, or bcs hating blizz is "mainstream", not bcs they actualy cared, the moment blizz released new content all those players appalled of things came runing back...
    I'll agree that social outcry about internal affairs such as the sexual harassment of blizz employees and blizchung's boycot doens't affect blizz's or retail WoW's perfomances and earnings much (which is somewhat dissapointing) but mismanagement of retail and overwatch definitely do hurt both games quite a lot. I have no hard evidence but I do know both games have been bleeding players for a long time and both are struggling with the playerbase loosing faith/hope that the devs will come through with high quality content again.

    Both could be doing much better than they are currently doing. Overwatch players have been waiting years now for overwatch 2 with no solid release for the complete game (yes, OW2 pvp is coming but the rest doesn't even have a release date). Retail as lost so much goodwill that almost nobody is positive about the next xpac because of the poor perfomance of the past two expansions.

    having players play though four years of mediocre to bad content is asking too much to still retain good faith in the devs from the playerbase. Sure, not all players will be cynical but the overall sentiment is far less positive than it used to be (at least, that is how I perceive the current sentiment, anecdotal evidence and all). Some might blame nostalgia, but that doesn't take away the fact that most refugees would rather play an entirely different game than classic. If it's nostalgia for better times, you can find those players there. If you really want to know why retail performs so poorly, just compare it to classic and and the current competition.
    'Something's awry.' -Duhgan 'Bel' beltayn

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  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    From a design point of view mind you. WoWs leveling is tedious to the point they monetized it. It bags the question of why does it last so long? There are maybe a dozen variations on quests with most of that only being use x item or x vehicle. The story is often irrelevant save for a few key zones.

    Leveling a alt really has me questioning why it's like this. What purpose does a slow, tedious, and far to simple to be engaging leveling experience still exist in wow?
    Four hours is quite arbitrary. The longer it takes the level the longer you'll play and keep your subscription.

    I know the quests are quite bland, all are either: go to talk to, go kill, go loot, go loot and kill. And that makes sense, because this is the World of WARcraft.

  19. #199
    Bloodsail Admiral Rad1um's Avatar
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    This is gonna sound very anti-wow player base, but I think they make you do this so that you can learn your rotations and such.

    I know, I know, only the top 1% do this.

    I think it was Asmongold or someone he was collaberating with that said, once you leave the game and hit up a YouTube channel or Icy Veins to see how you can do things better, you basically leave the realm of being a casual.

    Based off the 15+ years of being on WoW, id say that is an accurate statement. If you want proof, go to LFR.

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