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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Sounds a lot like levelling anyway.
    That's my point?

    It's not about leveling. It's about progression. And that means the old-and-ancient "level 1 to 60 to begin the actual game" model is really not important, and can be replaced by any number of alternatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Look, you can think it would be a better design if you want, but I know a lot of people would quit if they flat out removed levelling.
    Doesn't really matter.

    Not only is "people I know" a completely irrelevant and inherently biased metric, but you don't even know that they'd ACTUALLY quit; at best you know they say they would, and that's with not having seen or experienced whatever alternative there'd be. That's about as specious as it gets.

    Even then, some people quitting is okay. Happens all the time. You can't make everyone happy. If the classic, traditional leveling model is a deal breaker for them, fair enough. There'll be other people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    It doesn't matter if it takes 10 hours or 20, it's still an important part to a lot of people who want to play an RPG game, regardless if it's an MMO or not.
    It's SOMEWHAT important to SOME people, and we can only speculate as to the reason - given historical precedents for this kind of change, "I like tradition because it's tradition" tends to be a very common phenomenon. Experience has shown that once people actually witness a new paradigm first hand, then quite often it turns out they're not nearly as unwilling to change their mind as they claimed before. It's always the same with upending the established order: there's some die-hard conservatives and reactionaries, but for changes that make sense and are objectively justifiable, time tends to smooth over ostensible objections real fast.

    But then again: I specifically said it's probably too late to change this in WoW, for various complicated reasons. That doesn't mean I don't think it's a better way of approaching game design.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That's my point?

    It's not about leveling. It's about progression. And that means the old-and-ancient "level 1 to 60 to begin the actual game" model is really not important, and can be replaced by any number of alternatives.
    Then it doesn't matter if it doesn't get changed and levelling stays in place. Good to know we're on the same page.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Then it doesn't matter if it doesn't get changed and levelling stays in place. Good to know we're on the same page.
    Are you being intentionally thick? Category and quality aren't the same thing.

    Just because both are "progression" systems doesn't mean they're both equally good.

    Or would you like to exchange 100 US dollars for my 100 Zimbabwean dollars, because after all they're both "currency".

  4. #84
    I m starting to hate zoomers more than boomers at this point.

  5. #85
    Next on MMOchamp rant :

    Why are there so many O in World of Warcraft ?

    When you think about it, there are O in pedOphiles, bigOt, atrOcities, glObal warming and so many more ...

    You know why? Because o is for the tOp 0.1% but there is no O in casuals.

    Damn Blizzard and their conspiracies, why don't they do what i want ?

    I would easily replace Ion and my first decision to save this game would be to rename it the "Warcraft's realm" !

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Are you being intentionally thick? Category and quality aren't the same thing.

    Just because both are "progression" systems doesn't mean they're both equally good.

    Or would you like to exchange 100 US dollars for my 100 Zimbabwean dollars, because after all they're both "currency".
    Oh please. For the entirety of this discussion you've been coming at me with your mental gymnastics when all you had to say is you just don't like levelling.

    "Ancient concept" my ass.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyah View Post
    Next on MMOchamp rant :

    Why are there so many O in World of Warcraft ?

    When you think about it, there are O in pedOphiles, bigOt, atrOcities, glObal warming and so many more ...

    You know why? Because o is for the tOp 0.1% but there is no O in casuals.

    Damn Blizzard and their conspiracies, why don't they do what i want ?

    I would easily replace Ion and my first decision to save this game would be to rename it the "Warcraft's realm" !

    Laughed way too hard at this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    I m starting to hate zoomers more than boomers at this point.

    Good thing they hate each other equally, including those in between!

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That's my point?

    It's not about leveling. It's about progression. And that means the old-and-ancient "level 1 to 60 to begin the actual game" model is really not important, and can be replaced by any number of alternatives.


    Doesn't really matter.

    Not only is "people I know" a completely irrelevant and inherently biased metric, but you don't even know that they'd ACTUALLY quit; at best you know they say they would, and that's with not having seen or experienced whatever alternative there'd be. That's about as specious as it gets.

    Even then, some people quitting is okay. Happens all the time. You can't make everyone happy. If the classic, traditional leveling model is a deal breaker for them, fair enough. There'll be other people.


    It's SOMEWHAT important to SOME people, and we can only speculate as to the reason - given historical precedents for this kind of change, "I like tradition because it's tradition" tends to be a very common phenomenon. Experience has shown that once people actually witness a new paradigm first hand, then quite often it turns out they're not nearly as unwilling to change their mind as they claimed before. It's always the same with upending the established order: there's some die-hard conservatives and reactionaries, but for changes that make sense and are objectively justifiable, time tends to smooth over ostensible objections real fast.

    But then again: I specifically said it's probably too late to change this in WoW, for various complicated reasons. That doesn't mean I don't think it's a better way of approaching game design.
    You have mmo choices these days and there are quite a lot of zoomer friendly mmos out there as well as zoomer friendly games where your squirel level attention span and patience can get rewarded.
    Leveling can stay in wow in the meantime.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    If you skip leveling you lose rewards permanently as well.
    What rewards? Laughable amount of gold and bunch of quest greens?

  10. #90
    I swear wow is the only game I see people complaining about having to do content.

    Clearly we should just be handed everything so we can sit around doing nothing for 15 dollars a month.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Roflfaceroll View Post
    The leveling is there to allow it to still be an RPG. If you hate leveling that bad go ahead and waste your $60 for a boost. Some people enjoy parts of leveling because it gives nostalgia. Hence the whole reason they have WoW Classic now. The main difference is people that enjoy the sense of accomplishment when overcoming obstacles and others just want the rewards without any work.

    I think leveling sucks these days as well, but in the opposite way. Personally, I'd prefer the longer leveling option so I could re-experience the stories that come with leveling. There are tons of stories and side stories in wow. You lose the immersion of RPG's if all you do is walk through the quests with heroic raid or max M+ gear. Immersion is the whole reason behind RPG's(role playing games), but you seem like the type of person that would prefer the whole game to be paywalled.
    Mate, im doubble loremaster (Achivement nerd info; After Cata they re-made them, so a nerd like me did double questing), I have like 25 50 alts. I dont want to exsperience more of retail wow lvling - I know it all by hand, can prolly go through every quest blind. I also lvlede on classic, TBCC and will do wotlk too I guess. Its boring because some of us have done it way to much. This is why
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  12. #92
    Given at one time, levelling took weeks, 4 hours isn't bad.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    Clearly we should just be handed everything so we can sit around doing nothing for 15 dollars a month.
    Mission table in WoD.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Oh please. For the entirety of this discussion you've been coming at me with your mental gymnastics when all you had to say is you just don't like levelling.

    "Ancient concept" my ass.
    Ah, so you genuinely don't understand, and now you're just lashing out to cover it up.

    Got it.

    All you had to say was "I don't comprehend this, therefore I don't care" and we'd all known where we're at. Saves time, you see.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    Leveling can stay in wow in the meantime.
    Which is what I said from the get-go, yes. It's too late to change in WoW, but it's something to definitely keep in mind for the future.

  15. #95
    But I thought WoW was "pay 2 win"! You mean, you're not paying to jump straight to max level with the best gear, mounts, and everything else? How can this be? Why did people lie to me?

    Come on, people. Please try to do better.
    How joyous to be in such a place! Where phishing is not only allowed, it is encouraged!

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    It's essential to the theme of an RPG. You're not playing an action adventure game here.
    So it's only essential to some people then and not essential in the way that wearing armor is essential?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    If your idea is to entirely recreate leveling content/actions/mechanics/rewards at max level, why does it even need to be changed in the first place?
    You wouldn't need to change anything about the current game since a new expansion means Blizz can do whatever they want to do, like leaving cap at 60 or increasing cap to 70 and making it take 5 minutes through an intro questline.
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  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Ah, so you genuinely don't understand, and now you're just lashing out to cover it up.

    Got it.

    All you had to say was "I don't comprehend this, therefore I don't care" and we'd all known where we're at. Saves time, you see.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Which is what I said from the get-go, yes. It's too late to change in WoW, but it's something to definitely keep in mind for the future.
    Nah, you are the one who doesn't seem to understand. They can't possibly add any sort of feature to replace levelling. You can't possibly comprehend in how small a minority you "lets get rid of levelling" people are.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Nah, you are the one who doesn't seem to understand.
    I'm sorry didn't I just catch you in a serious category error two posts ago that you just did away with "lol whatever"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    They can't possibly add any sort of feature to replace levelling.
    I mean, if you clearly aren't reading and/or parsing my posts, why reply to them?

    I've said from the start that while I think leveling could and should be replaced in principle, I am not advocating them actually doing so in WoW, for various reasons.

    So feel free to object to the principle - by arguing why, and not just saying "some people I know might not like it" - but objecting to a concrete case I categorically stated I don't think should happen is sort of... silly?

  19. #99
    Levelling is just a simple measured progression through the game. Removing it is what landed us with alternate progression systems like Artifact Power, Azerite Power, covenants etc. You're basically just doing quests to fill up the bar to reach the next level, it's the same thing but they just call them world quests and they're repeatable dailies instead of unique content.

    If anything, if they made levelling a longer process the game would improve drastically imo. You wouldn't need as many of these alternate progression systems and time gating filler content that exist to replace the role levelling once served.

  20. #100
    Weekend threads never disappoint in their absurdity.

    Thanks for the laugh

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