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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Looking through the crafting changes, and while I am glad they are adding some depth to the system as a whole, I am wondering if this will actually change anything. Hasn't Ion already stated that the crafted gear you'll be able to make wont be as good as end game PvP, Mythic+ and raid gear? In other words, the end result being the same as it is now, maybe even lower depending on what they decide to go with?

    The most major problem of the crafting system wasnt that it was boring (mind you, that was a problem though), it was that it was unrewarding. And by Ion's own words, it looks like it's staying that way. I don't, and I imagine most wont, see much reason to put a bunch of time and effort into a system to get gear that'll be on par with heroic dungeon or LFR.
    Basically its just more of a mobile game addiction mechanic like 80% of wow features nowdays besides the flying they took from 2010 mmos.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Honestly they need to do what ffxiv has and make it so the markers have universal appearances and meanings.. Or something to tie them together
    They did this years ago though? Soak/stack mechanics ALWAYS have the big swirly thing in the middle of the AoE, which goes away once you've got enough people soaking it, AoEs have defined edges, even cones, a traditional sore point of WoW visual design, have had better visuals added to them in the last couple of expansions as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    i find it hard to believe some random raid from BFA would draw in more players than the battleground patch in classic
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    FruitySalad boy, this is a fantastic thread and is really going places. I just want to make sure I'm on page one of what is bound to be a long lasting and productive thread. It's amazing there are no other threads discussing the squish, as I'm confident you would have just posted in them if they did exist.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Looking through the crafting changes, and while I am glad they are adding some depth to the system as a whole, I am wondering if this will actually change anything. Hasn't Ion already stated that the crafted gear you'll be able to make wont be as good as end game PvP, Mythic+ and raid gear? In other words, the end result being the same as it is now, maybe even lower depending on what they decide to go with?

    The most major problem of the crafting system wasnt that it was boring (mind you, that was a problem though), it was that it was unrewarding. And by Ion's own words, it looks like it's staying that way. I don't, and I imagine most wont, see much reason to put a bunch of time and effort into a system to get gear that'll be on par with heroic dungeon or LFR.
    crafting wasn't always underwhelming. back when you could specialize your profession and make a really powerful weapon/armor people cried because they didn't want to have to take up said profession to feel like they where pulling the dps of the person who did. it was 100% the players that ruined crafting because they didn't want to put in the same work as others but still expect to get the same reward

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Radazar View Post
    crafting wasn't always underwhelming. back when you could specialize your profession and make a really powerful weapon/armor people cried because they didn't want to have to take up said profession to feel like they where pulling the dps of the person who did. it was 100% the players that ruined crafting because they didn't want to put in the same work as others but still expect to get the same reward
    Hi I noticed you made up something entirely untrue.

    Crafting was highly valued in tbc as the tailoring sets over performed in the first tier and bs had maces that perma stunned.

    After that professions were only taken for their enchantments. I'm sure this it what you meant to say simply clarifying the point.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    the short and simple answer: yes. it will change nothing.

    When you have a closer look at the game, you realize HOW stupid, old and conservative their minds are. they will not change reward structures. they will not change reps to accountwide or campaign quest to accountwide (to better support ppls switching their main a few times in one xpacs lifetime). same with itemlevel of gear you get by world activities or from professions. they will stick to the same old philosophy and their stance will never change. i personaly gave it up and my wow career ends after 17 years with DF. they will never evolve the game or change their minds.

    heck, even in TBC 15 years ago ppl did a 3piece BiS set (or was it just 1 item, can’t remember) by using professions. even damn fishing was useful back then, to get the water element profession mats for it, way cheaper than in AH.

    as always Ion talks a lot of „changing this and that and everything will get better… we listen to you“. but it’s all BS marketing speech. in the end they stick to the same old conservative concepts, they using since over a decade, and just milk the cow. regardless what „system“ or UI they paint on top of it.

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    for the reason just have a look above.

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    as true as this is, it even sounds more hillarious stupid, when considering the following 2 things:

    - yes, in ZM you can just take any item from PvP, raid or dungeons and convert it to a set piece with a single click.
    - no, you are not allowed to craft BiS items or set pieces with farming mats and multiple clicks in your profession UI.

    and this goes out to ppls, invested a lot of gold and time into their SL professions, with that stupid SL profession leggy system. man, spitting someone on street straight into his face, is way less unfriendly.

    this company and this wow team is so out of touch, conservative and unable to ever evolve the game or their minds, it’s just hillarious. but in the end of the day they will change nothing and stick to their stupid, old, conservative design philosophies and milk the cow.

    time to quit imo. things will never change. and it lasted long enough now.
    You were getting normal raid gear ilvl from questing. Above normal at world boss. Can make tier from quesr item bought. What exactly do you want? You want mythic gear through questing?
    Back in Wrath we had to run dungeons for badges that never bought highest ilvl gear. Had to manually make grp to run because no lfd yet. Now you have to do ONE dungeon a week for a Mythic level piece and It is hard? Dudes, you are right, you should quit. You don't want to play the game anymore. Play. Not get. Play.
    Last edited by Loveliest; 2022-08-17 at 11:49 AM.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    Hi I noticed you made up something entirely untrue.

    Crafting was highly valued in tbc as the tailoring sets over performed in the first tier and bs had maces that perma stunned.

    After that professions were only taken for their enchantments. I'm sure this it what you meant to say simply clarifying the point.
    which part was untrue? bliz had stated that they removed specializations because people felt like if they didn't pick that profession/specialization then they where under performing

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Radazar View Post
    which part was untrue? bliz had stated that they removed specializations because people felt like if they didn't pick that profession/specialization then they where under performing
    They were but not for the reasons listed. It was centered around the extra sockets and better gems.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    For the recruitment officer and the raid leader it absolutely is harder because of the organizational needs. For most players who just have to show up in time, it's still much harder since Mythic raiding requires larger blocks of time, usually requires a lot more skill and concentration and absolutely demands much larger expenditure in consumables (you don't need full consumables for a +15)
    Which, again, isn't about content difficulty.

    Basically your argument is mythic raiding takes "more time", "more money" and "more scheduling".

    That doesn't make it "harder", it makes it more tedious. Those aren't the same thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaneiac View Post
    This game isn't about your friends, though. This game is about taking it seriously enough that you do the hardest content no matter what it takes (transferring, etc), lasting friendships and other elements be damned. /s

  9. #189
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    The whole "Raid materials"-scheme is just a way to turn "Crafting as alternate progression path on its own" into yet another "Get in those damn raids already!"-scheme (Why are they so eager to push people into raids? Aren't they fun and popular enough?)
    Spot on. It would be much simpler if special mats dropped everywhere (with harder content dropping bigger quantities), so crafting could become a legitimate avenue of gearing, but whales would probably #$&% the whole thing up, not to mention all the tryhards QQ'ing about being "forced" to do stuff outside of raids (oh the horror).

    But sadly, Blizzard hears tryhards the loudest, so the whole system is looking more and more like an overcomplicated mess that ensures that only hardcore raiders will have access to the best gear, aka the same @#$& of today. M+ players will maybe get one or two bones, and PvPers... Probably not even Blizzard knows yet.

    In other words, how to change everything so that nothing actually changes, i.e. Blizzard in a nutshell.

  10. #190
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JemiS View Post
    Which, again, isn't about content difficulty.

    Basically your argument is mythic raiding takes "more time", "more money" and "more scheduling".

    That doesn't make it "harder", it makes it more tedious. Those aren't the same thing.
    They very much are. Difficulty is not just about skill.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Spot on. It would be much simpler if special mats dropped everywhere (with harder content dropping bigger quantities), so crafting could become a legitimate avenue of gearing, but whales would probably #$&% the whole thing up, not to mention all the tryhards QQ'ing about being "forced" to do stuff outside of raids (oh the horror).

    But sadly, Blizzard hears tryhards the loudest, so the whole system is looking more and more like an overcomplicated mess that ensures that only hardcore raiders will have access to the best gear, aka the same @#$& of today. M+ players will maybe get one or two bones, and PvPers... Probably not even Blizzard knows yet.

    In other words, how to change everything so that nothing actually changes, i.e. Blizzard in a nutshell.
    I mean I'm sure raiders will be selling bop mats to crafters for skill ups. Likely around 5k a pop.

    The system just looks like a gold sink otherwise to end game players. WoW honestly moved past a crafting system years ago. There is a better argument for removing it and consumables then there is keeping it from a game play perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    They very much are. Difficulty is not just about skill.
    Yes and no?

    Mythic needs some prep time and gear but you flow into it pretty naturally if your skill level is there. I've plugged half the bosses on mythic in wod and I know people who join raid communities that pug CE.

    You need a bit of know how and some networking but it isn't really gated off like a lot of posters make it sound.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    They very much are. Difficulty is not just about skill.
    You're describing tedium, not difficulty.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaneiac View Post
    This game isn't about your friends, though. This game is about taking it seriously enough that you do the hardest content no matter what it takes (transferring, etc), lasting friendships and other elements be damned. /s

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Spot on. It would be much simpler if special mats dropped everywhere (with harder content dropping bigger quantities), so crafting could become a legitimate avenue of gearing, but whales would probably #$&% the whole thing up, not to mention all the tryhards QQ'ing about being "forced" to do stuff outside of raids (oh the horror).

    But sadly, Blizzard hears tryhards the loudest, so the whole system is looking more and more like an overcomplicated mess that ensures that only hardcore raiders will have access to the best gear, aka the same @#$& of today. M+ players will maybe get one or two bones, and PvPers... Probably not even Blizzard knows yet.

    In other words, how to change everything so that nothing actually changes, i.e. Blizzard in a nutshell.
    I think your vision for crafting is different from Blizzards, and that doesn't necessarily mean Blizzards vision is wrong.

    Your vision is that Crafters do crafting to make better gear for themselves to gear up.
    Blizzards vision is that Crafters do crafting because they enjoy it, and they will enjoy specialising in to specific categories of crafting, regardless of the output items for themselves.


    It's easy to see why they've made these crafting changes when you see things from their vision, because crafting is signicantly deeper and more interesting in DF than at any point in WoWs past, and will be a much more fulfilling activity for people to do, whereas previously crafting was just a necessary hurdle you had to leap to get to what you actually wanted(the gear and/or consumables)
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    i find it hard to believe some random raid from BFA would draw in more players than the battleground patch in classic
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    FruitySalad boy, this is a fantastic thread and is really going places. I just want to make sure I'm on page one of what is bound to be a long lasting and productive thread. It's amazing there are no other threads discussing the squish, as I'm confident you would have just posted in them if they did exist.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    You were getting normal raid gear ilvl from questing. Above normal at world boss. Can make tier from quesr item bought. What exactly do you want? You want mythic gear through questing?
    Back in Wrath we had to run dungeons for badges that never bought highest ilvl gear. Had to manually make grp to run because no lfd yet. Now you have to do ONE dungeon a week for a Mythic level piece and It is hard? Dudes, you are right, you should quit. You don't want to play the game anymore. Play. Not get. Play.
    i have no clue, why you tell me that blah blah blah, tbh.

    i talked about that it’s stupid to let professions rotten aside, while you get your tier pieces with one click at some machine, instead maybe just build your tier piece with the use of professions. to give professions some use.

    then you came up with that 0815 typical standard „but do wanna get insta rewarded? do you wanna get mythic gear for free?“ lame shit. and tbh: no clue why.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2022-08-18 at 06:26 AM.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    I think your vision for crafting is different from Blizzards, and that doesn't necessarily mean Blizzards vision is wrong.

    Your vision is that Crafters do crafting to make better gear for themselves to gear up.
    Blizzards vision is that Crafters do crafting because they enjoy it, and they will enjoy specialising in to specific categories of crafting, regardless of the output items for themselves.
    Why not both?

    Let crafters enjoy the whole process of gathering and crafting, and also let them have some decent gear to show for it. (Crafting cool items exclusively for other people isn't as much fun as Blizz seems to think it is...)

    Blizz are very close to getting it right, they just need to add some way for the non-raiders to get some of those rare materials too, even if it's just a currency that they can trade in items for, or maybe a crafting daily or two that awards the currency (Or a bag of items that may contain those mats?), make it slower than raiding, but don't make the crafting of the good stuff just something for raiders.

  16. #196
    Crafting should be able to make you one or two mythic competitive pieces. It makes sense. It adds to the illusion that the world outside of the instance actually matters. When every single worthwhile piece of loot comes from a single source, it leaves the game feeling dull.

    When everything you need comes from a single source, it makes entering that source feel less of an adventure, and more of an RNG based trip to the grocery store. I hope I win the milk so dad can come home.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    Why not both?

    Let crafters enjoy the whole process of gathering and crafting, and also let them have some decent gear to show for it. (Crafting cool items exclusively for other people isn't as much fun as Blizz seems to think it is...)

    Blizz are very close to getting it right, they just need to add some way for the non-raiders to get some of those rare materials too, even if it's just a currency that they can trade in items for, or maybe a crafting daily or two that awards the currency (Or a bag of items that may contain those mats?), make it slower than raiding, but don't make the crafting of the good stuff just something for raiders.
    Crafters can make crafting gear, as in gear which makes their crafting better. It even displays on their character while crafting!

    The instant you add "decent gear" to crafting, crafting becomes a mandatory system that basically every one must engage with, and that screws things over for people who actually WANT to do crafting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    i find it hard to believe some random raid from BFA would draw in more players than the battleground patch in classic
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    FruitySalad boy, this is a fantastic thread and is really going places. I just want to make sure I'm on page one of what is bound to be a long lasting and productive thread. It's amazing there are no other threads discussing the squish, as I'm confident you would have just posted in them if they did exist.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Radazar View Post
    crafting wasn't always underwhelming. back when you could specialize your profession and make a really powerful weapon/armor people cried because they didn't want to have to take up said profession to feel like they where pulling the dps of the person who did. it was 100% the players that ruined crafting because they didn't want to put in the same work as others but still expect to get the same reward
    And now it's the opposite. We want to be able to craft our way to decent rewards and not have to do m+ or heroic/mythic raids but no the raiders and the key pushers will have a complete meltdown if you can get the same gear as them, it doesn't matter if it takes 6 months to get that gear you can't have it. And so players are forced to move to games like FFXIV where gear isn't gatekept by tryhards.

  19. #199
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    Crafters can make crafting gear, as in gear which makes their crafting better. It even displays on their character while crafting!

    The instant you add "decent gear" to crafting, crafting becomes a mandatory system that basically every one must engage with, and that screws things over for people who actually WANT to do crafting.
    That issue was solved with workorders though. People who hate crafting and never want to do it can still bring their BoP items to crafters to get their gear.

  20. #200
    I was looking at it like a new way to make "tokens" that are much more cooperative/interactive.

    You kill the bosses to get your gear, and slowly get reagents which you can hire a crafter to use to create your BiS items from that level of raid that you just did.

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