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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Why do you seem upset that people who do challenge group content in a group game get better rewards?
    Why are you upset that people want to be able to get gear via other means? And one big reason why an ease of access for gear is good, is that it helps people get into raiding/mythic+ if they either start late, or change classes. The system of "You can only get gear via raiding or mythic+" is inherently flawed in that it doesnt take long that you need the exact mythic+ and raiding gear to mythic+ or raid in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    I'm not sure why you keep repeating this, there's nothing from raids that increases the ilvl of crafting materials in Shadowlands. The highest ilvl crafted is 262, which only requires materials from Zereth Mortis, and nothing else.

    Even crafting legendaries at 291 doesn't require stepping in to a raid, unless you specifically need the legendary effect from the raid boss. And those legendary effects are spread across various content



    [edit] I looked further in to what you're saying, but the only crafting material that drops in raids(Progenitor Essentia), ALSO drops from gathering nodes, treasure chests, etc, and in far greater quantities than in the raid.
    Just sounds like the new system will be worse by removing the option to get material from the world and instead stick it to only raids and mythic+ (according to Ion)
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Why do you seem upset that people who do challenge group content in a group game get better rewards?
    WoW is a massively multiplayer role playing game. The only part of the game that is massively multiplayer is the open world. Inside an instance with a handful of other players is not massively multiplayer. If anything, the massively multiplayer part of the game (which is where crafting happens) should be the most rewarding.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  3. #43
    I think they need to get away from the idea you need mats from raids to complete raid level gear especially if that gear is only for limited amount of gear slots. just make it farmable world mats

    Anything less than raid level gear is completely irrelevant

    and if collecting the mats from raids takes a few weeks its also irrelevant cus you already replaced the slot and might as well not bother getting the other mats which is the current problem

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Just sounds like the new system will be worse by removing the option to get material from the world and instead stick it to only raids and mythic+ (according to Ion)
    Nah, the system will be the exact same, but with the added benefit that if you want heroic or mythic quality gear, you need to do heroic or mythic raids.

    And given you can choose your stats on crafted gear, crafted gear is absolutely going to be BiS on at least a few slots.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    i find it hard to believe some random raid from BFA would draw in more players than the battleground patch in classic
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    FruitySalad boy, this is a fantastic thread and is really going places. I just want to make sure I'm on page one of what is bound to be a long lasting and productive thread. It's amazing there are no other threads discussing the squish, as I'm confident you would have just posted in them if they did exist.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by cuafpr View Post
    Agree with OP at worse you should be able craft gear for one content their higher than what you are actively clearing/progressing. Best option would be you could craft max ilvl gear (not BiS per say) via crafting and solo material gathering, opening crafting into its own mini-game/end game content/progression path.
    lol no. You should not be able to craft Mythic quality gear while clearing Heroic. That's utter nonsense. "Hey you got mats from this as a consolation/gearing aid let's give you something way beyond that to make you feel even better" is stupid. Historically when raid drops were used in crafting they were on par with the raid or only slightly better(rare to happen).

    I'm sure you're one of those people who think the new items that drop from the raids next week to upgrade an item should also have heroic dropping the mythic version....for.....reasons....*shrug*

    Crafting should be at normal level or somewhere between normal and heroic. Plain and simple. If you want gear that high you should clear the content.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    WoW is a massively multiplayer role playing game. The only part of the game that is massively multiplayer is the open world. Inside an instance with a handful of other players is not massively multiplayer. If anything, the massively multiplayer part of the game (which is where crafting happens) should be the most rewarding.
    Then it should also be the most challenging. Bring back tagging mobs limited to a single player and those mobs are actually difficult to fight for your mats. Otherwise, your whole statement is utter ludicrous. Also I see more people in a raid than I typically do while farming mats so try again on that nonsense.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Why are you upset that people want to be able to get gear via other means? And one big reason why an ease of access for gear is good, is that it helps people get into raiding/mythic+ if they either start late, or change classes. The system of "You can only get gear via raiding or mythic+" is inherently flawed in that it doesnt take long that you need the exact mythic+ and raiding gear to mythic+ or raid in the first place.
    Nice strawman, thank you. I'll bring a torch for later.

    On the off chance you're actually attempting to discuss I'll try. You said this: "The system of "You can only get gear via raiding or mythic+" This is literally untrue. A person who has never grouped with or seen another person can get 246 tier, 252 in every slot but trinkets, the same legendaries as the mythic raiders, right now they can get normal raid conduits and next week they'll get mythic raid conduits. There has literally never been a time when the gap between the most casual of soloers and mythic raiders.

    Your problem seems to be that you don't think there should be ANY gap, and you try to pass off the fiction that not getting BiS from solo content in a team game is somehow bad game design.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    You realize thats how it already works, right? You raid for the raid crafting material to up the ilvl.


    Everyone in this thread keeps reposting variations of the same thing which is explaining how crafting currently works.
    Sorry, what are you talking about? Are you talking about SL crafting? If so, can you elaborate with an example of what you mean please?

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    That's fine. If Blizzard don't want the casual playerbase back we'll happily stay over at FFXIV where we're allowed to get the second best gear in the game over the course of a patch purely from casual content. Fucking snowflakes playing WoW, you're all so afraid of anyone else playing with your toys that you'd rather the game fucking died, it's pathetic
    In 9.2 outdoor content awarded nearly full gearset at normal raid ilvl, plus all other slots including tier set pieces (and weapons and trinkets) at 246.

    Solo outdoor content gave pretty good gear this patch I'd think?

  9. #49
    From what was said, you'll be able to craft gear up to normal raid level by default, with BoP reagents that need to be supplied by the buyer to get heroic or mythic level pieces.

    The system is designed as a way to turn raid gearing more deterministic, close to what they are experimenting with season 4 (being able to guarantee a few pieces and upgrade stuff between difficulties). Unless they drop the BoP requirement, having more gold or buying tokens should not impact how fast you gear through this method.

    While a crafter who doesn't do mythic won't be able to craft mythic pieces for himself, he can make money by crafting through work orders, creating more interaction in the game. Meanwhile you're not forced to become a crafter, since even if you acquire the BoP items you can just make a work order. Those who want to engage in the system can make gold with it, while not becoming mandatory.

    I think the system looks good.

  10. #50
    The proposed crafting system is garbage. It has Blizzard signature all over it. Overengineered crap without meaningful reward

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Looking through the crafting changes, and while I am glad they are adding some depth to the system as a whole, I am wondering if this will actually change anything. Hasn't Ion already stated that the crafted gear you'll be able to make wont be as good as end game PvP, Mythic+ and raid gear? In other words, the end result being the same as it is now, maybe even lower depending on what they decide to go with?

    The most major problem of the crafting system wasnt that it was boring (mind you, that was a problem though), it was that it was unrewarding. And by Ion's own words, it looks like it's staying that way. I don't, and I imagine most wont, see much reason to put a bunch of time and effort into a system to get gear that'll be on par with heroic dungeon or LFR.
    No he stated the opposite, gear will be just as good as high end gear.

  12. #52
    A huge part of the issue with crafting, is they can't make anything tradable or involve gold or it instantly becomes pay-to-win via the WoW token. The trading part is what would create player interaction and separate it from other activites.

    Without major changes to the monetisation and server system of the game I can't see it becoming relevant or interesting in the way it used to be.

  13. #53
    We can all agree that a reward structure should be reasonably build with effort, difficulty and time investment in mind, right? Kind of like how uhhh... idk, 99% of online games do it?
    Not for every single piece necessarily as there have always been freebies but in general terms, right?

    So, how do you structure a world/crafting/casual gearing progression on par with mythic when:

    Your "average" high key pusher will at minimum take 12 weeks, more likely 16 weeks~ to get all his slots done from the vault?(not even BiS)

    Your "average" CE guild takes 3+months to even get to the elevated itemlevels of the last 2-3 Bosses? (Also not BiS)

    When taking as above mentioned effort/skill/time into account this would mean the openworld/crafter/etc. progression would need to take several months longer than the patch lasts or an insane amount of grinding (bad idea due to whales/bots) to not invalidate M+/Raiding progression curve to even make sense.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    That's fine. If Blizzard don't want the casual playerbase back we'll happily stay over at FFXIV where we're allowed to get the second best gear in the game over the course of a patch purely from casual content. Fucking snowflakes playing WoW, you're all so afraid of anyone else playing with your toys that you'd rather the game fucking died, it's pathetic
    I love 14 and still play it over whatever this weird experimental season 4 is right now but jesus christ stop with these disingenuous takes, you are "gcbtw" at it's best.

    The gear carrot isn't a big deal in 14 while it always was in WoW, gear itself is bland and boring with most jobs just going full crit>det, no trinkets, no set effects no legendary/unique things, no secondary stats that impact your gameplay much, having a gear chase in 14 like in WoW would not work in that game and vice versa being BiS in 6-8 weeks would not feel great in WoW while it's a good sweetspot for 14.

    And even there "casuals" don't get the shiny 605weapon/600 gear until 4 months later where they have to still get into the alliance raid on the odd patch (with mediocre secondary stats on many tomestone pieces, this is by design... and also no 600 weapon until even later).

    You boast how you can earn the second best gear in the game as a casual, but you should also mention that there are pretty much only 3 gear sets to progress through in the firstplace, huh?

  14. #54
    How about adding cool things to craft that only crafter's can make? Unique transmogs, mounts, pets, etc. Like how FF14 does it. Some of the coolest glams come straight from professions and can't be found anywhere else.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Sorry, what are you talking about? Are you talking about SL crafting? If so, can you elaborate with an example of what you mean please?
    They thought Progenitor Essentia were only available from raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by BurntOwl View Post
    A huge part of the issue with crafting, is they can't make anything tradable or involve gold or it instantly becomes pay-to-win via the WoW token. The trading part is what would create player interaction and separate it from other activites.

    Without major changes to the monetisation and server system of the game I can't see it becoming relevant or interesting in the way it used to be.
    The crafting orders can include gold, so yes, a raider could request a top tier craft and include a payment of 100k gold, to "purchase" a top tier crafters time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    i find it hard to believe some random raid from BFA would draw in more players than the battleground patch in classic
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    FruitySalad boy, this is a fantastic thread and is really going places. I just want to make sure I'm on page one of what is bound to be a long lasting and productive thread. It's amazing there are no other threads discussing the squish, as I'm confident you would have just posted in them if they did exist.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    They thought Progenitor Essentia were only available from raid.


    The crafting orders can include gold, so yes, a raider could request a top tier craft and include a payment of 100k gold, to "purchase" a top tier crafters time.
    Aaaah, thank you. But even if Progenitor Essences would only drop from Raids, the system would still be different from the new version, because you simply can not craft mythic item level loot at all right now.
    So his statement simply was completely false.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by infinitemeridian View Post
    How about adding cool things to craft that only crafter's can make? Unique transmogs, mounts, pets, etc. Like how FF14 does it. Some of the coolest glams come straight from professions and can't be found anywhere else.
    why can't we just have good player power items from crafting, like any other mmorpg?

    too many crybabies feeling threatened that crafters have access to endgame gear via crafting, and the raidloggers feeling threatened because they are now "forced to do crafting to stay competitive"

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyvax View Post
    why can't we just have good player power items from crafting, like any other mmorpg?

    too many crybabies feeling threatened that crafters have access to endgame gear via crafting, and the raidloggers feeling threatened because they are now "forced to do crafting to stay competitive"
    Oh I'm fine with that too, don't get me wrong.

  19. #59
    They said in one of the posts that you'll be able to craft up to normal raid item level without any BoP reagents. That's not too shabby, especially early on the first tier of the expansion.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Except Ion has outright stated that the crafted gear will only be at a raid level IF you're already raiding. You need gear from raiding to make said gear. And that gear will also be BoP.
    yes so im a Leatherworker,

    i raid, so dont need the crafted gear of raid ilvl,

    i can make it stick it on AH and the person who buys it, it binds to them.
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

    If you are trying to AE tank and a bad dps is attacking the wrong target and dies, we call that justice.

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