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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I'll reframe it then. You get a shovel so you can more easily dig a hole. Best gear coming from hardest content lets u more easily reclear that content. Also let's you jump into other areas (m+, pvp) and have an easier time.

    I personally like the gear driven approach. Idc if my char looks badass, wears a pink tutu, or looks like a hobo. Cosmetics has always been lame to me
    That's also fair, the whole gear focused gameplay thing is unlikely to ever change in WoW, but we can all have our opinions.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by AcidicSyn View Post
    I was curious.

    We know already that the BOP mats required to get higher level (we'll say m+ quality gear for conversations sake) only drop inside of said content, m+ in this case.

    The way work orders work, you can choose to provide those bop mats or not, the one issuing the work order does not HAVE to be the one providing it, even though this might be the expected norm.

    Assuming I understand this correctly, couldn't someone who does not do M+ put in a work order requiring that the crafter provide the bop mats? (So, for instance, a tailor who DOES run Mythic+ would be the one to fulfill this work order) In this way, a non-M+ dungeoneer could simply buy those 5 pieces using gold? (I'm sure it would be comically expensive to do so, and I sure wouldn't, but technically possible no?)
    No, BoP materials cannot be provided by the Crafter. They went over this in one of the interviews, but the TL;DR is the BoP materials can't be provided by the crafter, they have to be provided by the raider.



    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    The system is in its early stage, but the idea is that the buyer has access to the workorder over the AH and can order a crafted piece, which requires raid mats.
    Again, you've got it backwards. It's not the crafter who makes the Work Order, it's the raider. They choose what item, how much of their own materials they put in, and the commission they're willing to pay, and then they place the WO on the AH and hope that a crafter picks it up and crafts it.

    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    That is the whole point of having professions relevant - that you as a non-raider can get mythic raider-level gear.
    Completely, 100% false. It has never ever ever been stated in any way that the point of this profession change is to give non-raiders mythic raider-level gear, in fact it has been stated multiple times that the point of the profession change is to allow people who enjoy crafting to choose it as their main activity, and make it more interesting for them, while also allowing raiders who don't have an interest in crafting to not feel forced in to it just because they need the gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    If not implemented that way, then the entire work on professions is completely irrelevant and they may as well scrap it now as it will be just like the existing system.
    It is RADICALLY different to the current system. Just purely the Work Order system, and the ability to craft an item that is bound to another person is a massive leap forwards with regards to letting people choose how they play.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    i find it hard to believe some random raid from BFA would draw in more players than the battleground patch in classic
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    FruitySalad boy, this is a fantastic thread and is really going places. I just want to make sure I'm on page one of what is bound to be a long lasting and productive thread. It's amazing there are no other threads discussing the squish, as I'm confident you would have just posted in them if they did exist.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Do you understand that crafting gear that is 1 difficulty higher then what you are progressing renders a lot of gear you would be currently getting already obsolete before it even drops? Not to mention screwing with the tuning of fights because now Heroic difficulty bosses need to be tuned around raiders running around in crafted Mythic level gear.
    understood so OP is then right and crafting is irreleveant?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Part of the issue is probably that the world systems are not fully intended for casual players. A big part of them is meant to be raider catchup gear and thus has to be available fast.
    Nothing in this game seems to be intended for casual players, but still they are the mayority, that is how crazy the situation is.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by dryla1 View Post
    understood so OP is then right and crafting is irreleveant?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Nothing in this game seems to be intended for casual players, but still they are the mayority, that is how crazy the situation is.
    Are "casual" players the majority? Most specs had 70-80% of players picking the same covenants at sl launch. Even casual players min max this isn't a new mmo where info is hard to find.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Are "casual" players the majority? Most specs had 70-80% of players picking the same covenants at sl launch. Even casual players min max this isn't a new mmo where info is hard to find.
    No that was like 2 months after the game launched when all the casuals had already left when they realized that Blizzard had fucked them and given them no long term gear progression. The covenant numbers during the first month was very diverse.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by dryla1 View Post
    understood so OP is then right and crafting is irreleveant?
    Being able to get up to 5 deterministic pieces through the course of a tier is hardly irrelevant. Took me over a month to get my first weapon drop this tier, and I only got the offhand weapon last week. If this system was in place I would've been able to make a work order for it a lot earlier.

    The system is designed as a deterministic bad luck protection for folks doing content.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    How would you decouple consumables from gold though? There needs to be a market. You could remove raid BoEs which is one of the major gold transactions but then you have consumables and crafted gear.
    The easiest solutions would be to make them weak, add gold alternatives to NPCs and some kind of token system / badge system to buy better ones that are stronger than either of them. And of course conjured group versions so that those who can't / don't play as much can still end up using one in content that they're doing together.

    For gear, as it stands now, it has a good base system. Make it so you have to gather things yourself, and you use crafters to make the gear itself through commissions. Otherwise, have the normal crafted gear be mediocre and just a catch-up / fast-pass to just enough ilvl for current content (LFR / Flex and Heroic dungeons) at max. Honestly turning professions into cosmetic focused and commission focused paths are way better than having them give you a bunch of useless gear / consumables over time.

    At least IMO - because the effort to actually make crafters relevant again would be very difficult to balance both fun and frustration dealing with commissions. I'm totally fine with them going back to Classic / TBC days and making crafting actually fast-path you to greens or blues earlier on. While the more powerful purples are only gained through content itself or rare recipes for the crafters themselves / commissioned.

    Just spitballing at this point, but you get the idea there are multitude of ways to decouple gold value from power. Not all equal to one another, but it's better for them to try systems out than to just keep it the way it is now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    Bots have only gotten worse since the introduction of the token, the amount of digital goods purchased through botting is higher than it ever would have been otherwise since you can exchange the tokens for b.net currency and buy current expansions. Whales have made it so bots can thrive in the current ecosystem and most modern bots are undetectable.

    The consequences of the token existing at all have changed the game in some fundamental ways and they are all a net negative for the game as a whole.
    I forgot the b.net currency exchange existed, lol. Remove that and then the token loses an insane amount of botting value as well. So if you did that, while also making gold a lot less useful for any power gain in-game - it'd definitely help a lot. As keeping the token there would still deter RMT bots. But at that point removing the token would be a morals choice from Blizzard - not a large monetary gain one I suppose.

    But now that you mention the first part about buying things with gold outside of WoW, I doubt Blizzard will ever remove gold for b.net currency, which is sad.

  8. #108
    I'm 95% sure the bottle neck pieces for crafted gear will also be only obtainable through raid/m+ for PVE and buyable with a certain rank for PVP.

    There will also be 1-2 crafting pieces that are just outright expensive to make that incentives people to want gold (to sell those WoW tokens)

    So basically, it's just a longer and more convoluted way to get to the same gear and make you want gold more to sell more WoW tokens.

    Similar to how talents are just a more convoluted way to essentially get to the same place you are now, but feel like you did more to get there.

    It's the illusion of choice. Superficial, clever presentation masking shallow crap with these people.

    I wish more people would catch on.

    Also you guys paid more for 8.1 and 8.2 than the entire $400 million current development cost of Star Citizen.

    Hope the inch they give you is worth the mile they're taking!
    Last edited by Mojo03; 2022-08-02 at 06:13 AM.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    I'm 95% sure the bottle neck pieces for crafted gear will also be only obtainable through raid/m+ for PVE and buyable with a certain rank for PVP.
    What bottleneck pieces are you referring to?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    Also you guys paid more for 8.1 and 8.2 than the entire $400 million current development cost of Star Citizen.
    Not sure why you're referencing patches that are 3.5 years old, but for our money we got an actual game out of it, instead of crappy tech demos and broken promises. I feel like we made out pretty well compared to SC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    i find it hard to believe some random raid from BFA would draw in more players than the battleground patch in classic
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    FruitySalad boy, this is a fantastic thread and is really going places. I just want to make sure I'm on page one of what is bound to be a long lasting and productive thread. It's amazing there are no other threads discussing the squish, as I'm confident you would have just posted in them if they did exist.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    No that was like 2 months after the game launched when all the casuals had already left when they realized that Blizzard had fucked them and given them no long term gear progression. The covenant numbers during the first month was very diverse.
    What do you mean by no long term progression goals?

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    What do you mean by no long term progression goals?
    Gear progression that lasts for a couple of months. Like badge gear for example, something that WoW had for a very long time where casuals over the course of a patch could slowly get the second best gear in the game. When your gear progression last less than a month people unsub really fucking fast.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    You do realize, that's how it works now? Limited crafting gear slots, and raiders get a special resource that allows ilvls up to 3 ilvls below heroic level (we have no confirmation on whether DF crafting goes to mythic, but that is honestly, irrelevant). In the end, the system stays a raider only system. Which, has been the major reason that crafting has stayed largely irrelevant; its only really for a minority of players.

    Its a system they've had for years now and its always been bad. Its why WoW crafting is a joke compared to other MMO where you can make raid level gear without raiding. It keeps crafting relevant and usable by anyone and not just raiders.
    except we do but ok.
    this is why no one is taking you seriously
    cause you can't even do research.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Gear progression that lasts for a couple of months. Like badge gear for example, something that WoW had for a very long time where casuals over the course of a patch could slowly get the second best gear in the game. When your gear progression last less than a month people unsub really fucking fast.
    Badge gear in Wrath for example was normal raid ilvl or lower. There was no way to buy max ilvl gear or get it as a non raider. Now we can get normal raid ilvl gear from doing world content, get one almost heroic raid piece of crafted gear, get higher than mythic ilvl legendaries (lower in s4 though), base mythic raid ilvl gear available from puggable group content. It's way more casual friendly to get max ilvl gear right now in SL than it was in Wrath.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Gear progression that lasts for a couple of months. Like badge gear for example, something that WoW had for a very long time where casuals over the course of a patch could slowly get the second best gear in the game. When your gear progression last less than a month people unsub really fucking fast.
    You have mythic plus

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathspell View Post
    Badge gear in Wrath for example was normal raid ilvl or lower. There was no way to buy max ilvl gear or get it as a non raider. Now we can get normal raid ilvl gear from doing world content, get one almost heroic raid piece of crafted gear, get higher than mythic ilvl legendaries (lower in s4 though), base mythic raid ilvl gear available from puggable group content. It's way more casual friendly to get max ilvl gear right now in SL than it was in Wrath.
    I didn't say anything about getting the best gear in the game. You could get the second best gear in the game, something that's now impossible.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    You have mythic plus
    Which is not casual content. Thanks for your input.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    I didn't say anything about getting the best gear in the game. You could get the second best gear in the game, something that's now impossible.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Which is not casual content. Thanks for your input.
    Heroic raid gear is 265. You can buy from the AH a piece of 262 gear so nearly there. Then you can make 2 legendaries that are 291, which is the highest ilvl there is currently. You can get up to 252 gear from world content. Even if you don't count m+ you can still very easily get to about 255, which is just a bit lower than full heroic raid gear. You can get ~90% of the throughput of a heroic raider without ever raiding or doing m+.

    Also, how is m+ not casual content? You can get heroic ilvl (second best in the game) gear from the vault for doing +10. You can play it whenever, and you don't need a guild to do it. Everyone gets their own key so even if you can't get into groups you can do your own key. Is it not casual because you need a group for it?

    Edit: You also need to consider that you only got emblems of frost in Wrath from raiding, aside from a tiny amount. So you would take months and months of daily heroics (14 a week) to get all the 251/264 pieces if you wouldn't raid, and still you wouldn't have all slots filled probably.
    Last edited by Lathspell; 2022-08-02 at 08:56 AM.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathspell View Post
    Edit: You also need to consider that you only got emblems of frost in Wrath from raiding, aside from a tiny amount. So you would take months and months of daily heroics (14 a week) to get all the 251/264 pieces if you wouldn't raid, and still you wouldn't have all slots filled probably.
    That's the whole point. Casuals need a long term progression path. It shouldn't be over in a week and give you normal gear, it should take months and give you heroic gear.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    That's the whole point. Casuals need a long term progression path. It shouldn't be over in a week and give you normal gear, it should take months and give you heroic gear.
    Casual players and months long progression

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    No, BoP materials cannot be provided by the Crafter. They went over this in one of the interviews, but the TL;DR is the BoP materials can't be provided by the crafter, they have to be provided by the raider.




    Again, you've got it backwards. It's not the crafter who makes the Work Order, it's the raider. They choose what item, how much of their own materials they put in, and the commission they're willing to pay, and then they place the WO on the AH and hope that a crafter picks it up and crafts it.


    Completely, 100% false. It has never ever ever been stated in any way that the point of this profession change is to give non-raiders mythic raider-level gear, in fact it has been stated multiple times that the point of the profession change is to allow people who enjoy crafting to choose it as their main activity, and make it more interesting for them, while also allowing raiders who don't have an interest in crafting to not feel forced in to it just because they need the gear.


    It is RADICALLY different to the current system. Just purely the Work Order system, and the ability to craft an item that is bound to another person is a massive leap forwards with regards to letting people choose how they play.
    It's also a deterministic path for gear upgrades that is more involved that VP/JP.

  20. #120
    Honestly I don't understand why we don't go back to the crafting system from TBC. With shadowlands a couple of great classic/tbc stuff came back: sharpening stones, oils, armor kits, enchanted resources (in vanilla professions interacted much more with one another, a blacksmith or tailor needing leather, a leatherworker needing a buckle etc.).

    Shadowland's its take on legendaries as crafts is great imo!

    Professions had specializations:
    Blacksmith: Armor Smith or Weapon Smith: Axe/Sword/Hammer
    Engineering: Goblin or Gnomish
    Leatherworking: Dragonscale, Elemental, Tribal
    Tailoring: Primal Mooncloth, Shadowcloth and Spellcloth

    It gave more flavour to the professions, and made them specific relevant to certain classes/specs.

    Then in addition raids would drop recipes of raid value, it was a great way to make crafting relevant endgame, as some of your best items / item enhancements would come from raiding.

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