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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gasparde View Post
    That... doesn'T make sense.
    You don't need mythic crafting gear for that. When there's a new patch you'll get higher ilvl crafting gear, normal or heroic level, whatever, and you can work towards that - and compared to the previous season, that gives you your progress, speeds things up, makes shit easier. Then, 6 months later, they bring out a new patch and you get to craft the +20 ilvl heroic stuff from that patch - you'll again have made a leap in power now.

    There is absolutely 0 reason for you to have mythic gear if you're not doing mythic content. Just like everyone else you'll grow in power from patch to patch, you'll just not grow to the exact same level - simply because you don't need to be at that level. You'll be showered in loot that makes every content you could be doing trivial anyways, and comes next patch you'll get a free 20 ilvls on top of that. If you're not a cutting edge raider racing against the clock... you can just wait for that next 2% dmg increase.

    Like, it's not like I'm opposed to you getting that shit, it's just that I don't see why you'd want it so badly. And if there's no reason as to why you need it, but instead it's simply just wanting it... then that's simply you wanting the game to change to something that it isn't and hasn't set out to be for like a decade now - in which case you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

    You'll get your profession progression with power increases and shit to work towards, that's all gonna be there. You're simply still gonna be 10 ilvls behind they guys killing mythic Jailer. I don't see how that's gonna be a problem when your main form of content is picking flowers and farming Nighthold normal - at that point you'Re doing 10 year old content, you can wait another couple months before they up the free catchup ilvl shit.
    Tbh more i think heroic like in wrath is best..Though not opposed to mythic.

    And again it's more a feels good thing. Like you can shave alot of time off encounters and by the time done getting it all if it takes ages bam you feel pretty good. Depending how it happens even one piece could just feel good.

    And an idea occurs to me that you could if just crafted gear that a reward for a daily or weekly quest(or once a day roulette reward) and make it so every 1-3 weeks(depending on slot) you could get enough to have a piece crafted. Ideally most anything could reward saud items so say raiders could get alot from raids, mythic plus a bit less and world bosses less then that witth dailies/quests the lowest but most guranteed.

    Everybody could get the same gear but the rate would differ on how hardcore you play

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    lol what?
    This has never been true.
    1- In dragonflight you can do that
    2- even if you couldnt, people still buy gear for their alts, to get a head start, for transmog, for countless reasons
    3- man alchemy and cooking must make ZERO fucking money, they can't make any equivalent end game quality gear... poor them.
    Fair points.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Gasparde View Post
    That... doesn'T make sense.
    You don't need mythic crafting gear for that. When there's a new patch you'll get higher ilvl crafting gear, normal or heroic level, whatever, and you can work towards that - and compared to the previous season, that gives you your progress, speeds things up, makes shit easier. Then, 6 months later, they bring out a new patch and you get to craft the +20 ilvl heroic stuff from that patch - you'll again have made a leap in power now.

    There is absolutely 0 reason for you to have mythic gear if you're not doing mythic content. Just like everyone else you'll grow in power from patch to patch, you'll just not grow to the exact same level - simply because you don't need to be at that level. You'll be showered in loot that makes every content you could be doing trivial anyways, and comes next patch you'll get a free 20 ilvls on top of that. If you're not a cutting edge raider racing against the clock... you can just wait for that next 2% dmg increase.

    Like, it's not like I'm opposed to you getting that shit, it's just that I don't see why you'd want it so badly. And if there's no reason as to why you need it, but instead it's simply just wanting it... then that's simply you wanting the game to change to something that it isn't and hasn't set out to be for like a decade now - in which case you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

    You'll get your profession progression with power increases and shit to work towards, that's all gonna be there. You're simply still gonna be 10 ilvls behind they guys killing mythic Jailer. I don't see how that's gonna be a problem when your main form of content is picking flowers and farming Nighthold normal - at that point you'Re doing 10 year old content, you can wait another couple months before they up the free catchup ilvl shit.
    By that logic nobody would ever buy a sports car because they don't need it. A 10 year old Volvo would be the best car a regular person should ever be allowed to own

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Tbh more i think heroic like in wrath is best..Though not opposed to mythic.

    And again it's more a feels good thing. Like you can shave alot of time off encounters and by the time done getting it all if it takes ages bam you feel pretty good. Depending how it happens even one piece could just feel good.

    And an idea occurs to me that you could if just crafted gear that a reward for a daily or weekly quest(or once a day roulette reward) and make it so every 1-3 weeks(depending on slot) you could get enough to have a piece crafted. Ideally most anything could reward saud items so say raiders could get alot from raids, mythic plus a bit less and world bosses less then that witth dailies/quests the lowest but most guranteed.

    Everybody could get the same gear but the rate would differ on how hardcore you play
    That utterly fucks up the game though... I don't know why gear whores leave that important point out.

    Wow end game is divided by difficulty. If you let people massively outgear the mid game it puts them in a very awkward spot of having better gear then any content they can complete without being hard carried through. It makes a mess out of pugs and was the orginal reason why gear score became a thing and later raider io. People could no longer gauge a players skill at a glance and needed to invent other far more gatekeeping systems.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    By that logic nobody would ever buy a sports car because they don't need it. A 10 year old Volvo would be the best car a regular person should ever be allowed to own
    Yes, because that's totally the same thing. Like, totally, exact same scenario. Especially because you're just kinda being given a 200k sportscar... for free... if you just show up long enough for your Dominos shift. Because just doing Mining 24/7 is totally the same amount of effort as mythic raiding for 3 months. Just as any job earning 400 bucks a month is the same as any job making 5 grand. Thusly, wanting a Lambo over a Volvo from your minijob wage is the exact same thing as wanting the Mythic Jailer weapon... for picking up ore really intensively.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    That utterly fucks up the game though... I don't know why gear whores leave that important point out.
    It didn't fuck up WoW in the past. It doesn't fuck up FFXIV. I don't know why elitist jerks pretend like it would.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    That utterly fucks up the game though... I don't know why gear whores leave that important point out.

    Wow end game is divided by difficulty. If you let people massively outgear the mid game it puts them in a very awkward spot of having better gear then any content they can complete without being hard carried through. It makes a mess out of pugs and was the orginal reason why gear score became a thing and later raider io. People could no longer gauge a players skill at a glance and needed to invent other far more gatekeeping systems.
    It doesn't fuck it up if its gated enough that they often have something to gain from normal/hc. It simply gives them an extra goal to work towards that's fun and rewarding and maybe gives them a better chance at their content.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    It didn't fuck up WoW in the past. It doesn't fuck up FFXIV. I don't know why elitist jerks pretend like it would.
    I mean it directly ties into the rise of gearscore and an ever increasing wall of grinds needed to get ahead of the pack for people who come in late. They have to stick out in a sea of players that look better on paper but can't play.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Daffan View Post
    How does this even work though, because the next patch comes out and invalidates all ur effort before you're finished in the latter scenario.
    In that new patch, there will be new stuff to pursue, though.

    "Gear up, next patch, repeat" has been the gameplay loop for WoW for ages, so that's not news.

    That the whole "Raid materials"-scheme is just a way to turn "Crafting as alternate progression path on its own" into yet another "Get in those damn raids already!"-scheme (Why are they so eager to push people into raids? Aren't they fun and popular enough?), now that is the problem people have.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    That utterly fucks up the game though... I don't know why gear whores leave that important point out.

    Wow end game is divided by difficulty. If you let people massively outgear the mid game it puts them in a very awkward spot of having better gear then any content they can complete without being hard carried through. It makes a mess out of pugs and was the orginal reason why gear score became a thing and later raider io. People could no longer gauge a players skill at a glance and needed to invent other far more gatekeeping systems.
    Conversely it also leads more people to try out raidong naturally or to steo in and out of pugging rather then outright avoiding things.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    In that new patch, there will be new stuff to pursue, though.

    "Gear up, next patch, repeat" has been the gameplay loop for WoW for ages, so that's not news.

    That the whole "Raid materials"-scheme is just a way to turn "Crafting as alternate progression path on its own" into yet another "Get in those damn raids already!"-scheme (Why are they so eager to push people into raids? Aren't they fun and popular enough?), now that is the problem people have.
    Wasn't LFR made specifically BECAUSE raids weren't that popular and so they were using it to boost the numbers? In which case i'd say no no it's nowhere near as popular as it could be. Buut it does seem to be one of ions favorite things sooo they push people into it.

    That said i did just realize if they put ion in charge of a new game with a lobby que style system where ya just go and kill bosses/go to raid he'd probably do really damn well at that job and make a killer game..Sadly he's the head of wow for some deity forsaken reason.

  11. #171
    op wants free BiS in the mailbox.
    some people should play singleplayer games, op is one of em.

    highest tier crafting should only be possible if you do hardest content.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Wasn't LFR made specifically BECAUSE raids weren't that popular and so they were using it to boost the numbers? In which case i'd say no no it's nowhere near as popular as it could be. But it does seem to be one of ions favorite things sooo they push people into it.

    That said i did just realize if they put ion in charge of a new game with a lobby que style system where ya just go and kill bosses/go to raid he'd probably do really damn well at that job and make a killer game..Sadly he's the head of wow for some deity forsaken reason.
    A lot of people (I have no exact figures, but i can't be the only one) just don't enjoy raiding as it is, i'm quite frankly not much good when there are too many different mechanics in play at once, even if half of them are fairly unimportant in LfR, the many different visuals going off all the time are confusing to me, oh noes! swirly crap on the ground! (The old stand-by) Now, do i need to avoid it? Soak it? Soak it with a bunch of players? (And this times 12 bosses, that's a lot of homework to memorize for a relaxing game)

    I think LfR would do better if it had fewer mechanics, but the ones in there mattered, and instead of just hiking up the damage numbers, the difficulty levels increased the number of mechanics (A bit like the heroic/mythic leap now), that seems like a more interesting progression to me than just "Do the same stuff again, but with bigger numbers!"

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Conversely it also leads more people to try out raidong naturally or to steo in and out of pugging rather then outright avoiding things.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Wasn't LFR made specifically BECAUSE raids weren't that popular and so they were using it to boost the numbers? In which case i'd say no no it's nowhere near as popular as it could be. Buut it does seem to be one of ions favorite things sooo they push people into it.

    That said i did just realize if they put ion in charge of a new game with a lobby que style system where ya just go and kill bosses/go to raid he'd probably do really damn well at that job and make a killer game..Sadly he's the head of wow for some deity forsaken reason.
    Except they don't. They simply push into harder difficulties early ruin groups then rage. It's been almost 20 years. I'm tired of people acting like this is some unknown.

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    A lot of people (I have no exact figures, but i can't be the only one) just don't enjoy raiding as it is, i'm quite frankly not much good when there are too many different mechanics in play at once, even if half of them are fairly unimportant in LfR, the many different visuals going off all the time are confusing to me, oh noes! swirly crap on the ground! (The old stand-by) Now, do i need to avoid it? Soak it? Soak it with a bunch of players? (And this times 12 bosses, that's a lot of homework to memorize for a relaxing game)

    I think LfR would do better if it had fewer mechanics, but the ones in there mattered, and instead of just hiking up the damage numbers, the difficulty levels increased the number of mechanics (A bit like the heroic/mythic leap now), that seems like a more interesting progression to me than just "Do the same stuff again, but with bigger numbers!"
    Honestly they need to do what ffxiv has and make it so the markers have universal appearances and meanings.. Or something to tie them together

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    ? There absolutely have been times when that gap was tighter. In the previous expansion a casual player could easily cap conquest every week and have full heroic in all slots with some of the best Azerite Trait combinations and stats and great trinkets. Add 5 slots of Horrific Vision gear at just 5 ilvls below Mythic and the cape and the gap was far far tighter. In MoP you had Ordos dropping so many slots at warforged heroic, half a tier below mythic.

    Did the raiding scene suffer because of that?
    Can you imagine the nerdrage if Blizzard offered just shy of mythic raid gear nowadays, on the caveat that you only get a chance once per week and only after you've done an entire expansion's long quest chain? Reminding me of the Ordos gear, and transplanting that to modern times, was a great mental laugh.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Wow end game is divided by difficulty. If you let people massively outgear the mid game it puts them in a very awkward spot of having better gear then any content they can complete without being hard carried through.
    This already happens. You can do 15s that are much easier than Mythic raids, get way better rewards than any mid progression difficulty, you can spam them and you don't even need to actually time them because you're getting both the loot and counts for the weekly cache.

    And it's basically "solo" play because yes, you need to be 5 people but most players are just queuing solo through LFD and have limited to zero interaction. Most people play WoW as a solo game. And the game lets them to have also a meaningful and steady progression via content that's repeatable as much as you want and the valor upgrades as safety measure.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    This already happens. You can do 15s that are much easier than Mythic raids, get way better rewards than any mid progression difficulty, you can spam them and you don't even need to actually time them because you're getting both the loot and counts for the weekly cache.

    And it's basically "solo" play because yes, you need to be 5 people but most players are just queuing solo through LFD and have limited to zero interaction. Most people play WoW as a solo game. And the game lets them to have also a meaningful and steady progression via content that's repeatable as much as you want and the valor upgrades as safety measure.
    Except this isn't correct is it? You can argue that after eight weeks or so someone doing 15s will be on par with a mythic raider but it gives you gear slightly above heroic slightly below mythic otherwise and that feels on par.

    Usually the first few mythic bosses are easier then a 15 so unless you have a better argument that a properly tuned stepping stone difficulty acts as a stepping stone your losing me here.

    I would argue if you made the gear scale up to a 20 you could give out capped valor gear and a 25 just give mythic gear.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Except this isn't correct is it? You can argue that after eight weeks or so someone doing 15s will be on par with a mythic raider but it gives you gear slightly above heroic slightly below mythic otherwise and that feels on par.

    Usually the first few mythic bosses are easier then a 15 so unless you have a better argument that a properly tuned stepping stone difficulty acts as a stepping stone your losing me here.

    I would argue if you made the gear scale up to a 20 you could give out capped valor gear and a 25 just give mythic gear.
    Mythic raiding requares 20 players and you have to schelude your time and be in the guild. For this few facts m+15 will never be harder than mythic raiding becouse you need only 5 players and you can do m+ content whenever you want. Gameplay isnt only thing what counts into difficulty. This is mmo so social difficulty actualy get and be in mythic raid has to be acounted for.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Mythic raiding requares 20 players and you have to schelude your time and be in the guild. For this few facts m+15 will never be harder than mythic raiding becouse you need only 5 players and you can do m+ content whenever you want. Gameplay isnt only thing what counts into difficulty. This is mmo so social difficulty actualy get and be in mythic raid has to be acounted for.
    So not actually harder, just take more organization and less doable by people who work inconsistent schedules, have kids, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaneiac View Post
    This game isn't about your friends, though. This game is about taking it seriously enough that you do the hardest content no matter what it takes (transferring, etc), lasting friendships and other elements be damned. /s

  20. #180
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JemiS View Post
    So not actually harder, just take more organization and less doable by people who work inconsistent schedules, have kids, etc.
    For the recruitment officer and the raid leader it absolutely is harder because of the organizational needs. For most players who just have to show up in time, it's still much harder since Mythic raiding requires larger blocks of time, usually requires a lot more skill and concentration and absolutely demands much larger expenditure in consumables (you don't need full consumables for a +15)

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