Thread: Shower Thoughts

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  1. #21
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteady 87 View Post
    Psst. How did they evolve into their current form if they didn't have taurenshoes in their ancestry?

    Again: No one is out there putting shoes on wild buffalo, bisons, and oxen, and they get along just fine. Even when domesticated and used for heavy manual labor, most of them never get shoed, and they certainly didn't before the iron age. Amazing that, huh?

    Shoes are a convenience, not a necessity.
    Why do you need to wear shoes? >_>

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That's not how it works. Evolution takes care of their natural size, just as it did with horses on Earth - who only need shoes because of UNNATURAL exertion associated with domestication, especially riding and load-pulling. If they're not being ridden extensively and/or are routinely pulling heavy loads, domesticated horses don't need horseshoes either; and as I said earlier, in fact many domesticated horses aren't routinely shoed, because we no longer use horses like we did a century and longer ago.

    A Tauren wearing armor does not compare to a horse carrying a medieval knight in full plate.
    And tauren and draenei wearing heavy armor qualifies as "unnatural exertion".
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And tauren and draenei wearing heavy armor qualifies as "unnatural exertion".
    Apparently you stopped reading after that sentence, because I specifically address this.

    This isn't a speed contest. You can finish reading a post before you reply.

  3. #23
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Apparently you stopped reading after that sentence, because I specifically address this.

    This isn't a speed contest. You can finish reading a post before you reply.
    I have read your post. And you didn't address the issue.

    The problem is that you think that "if a horse would have no problems, then so wouldn't a tauren/draenei" which is a fallacy. Draenei and tauren are not as strong as a horse. Carrying all that armor, plus weapon and/or shield, plus whatever supplies, etc, it does count as "unnatural exertion".
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I have read your post. And you didn't address the issue.

    The problem is that you think that "if a horse would have no problems, then so wouldn't a tauren/draenei" which is a fallacy. Draenei and tauren are not as strong as a horse. Carrying all that armor, plus weapon and/or shield, plus whatever supplies, etc, it does count as "unnatural exertion".
    Anything that doesn't come up in nature is an "unnatural exertion", that's arguing a meaningless technicality without understanding what the actual problem is. I said specifically that those things DON'T COMPARE, so address that, and not some meaningless terminological quibble.

    Why do they not compare? Because armor weight scales differently from body weight. Armor is primarily about surface area, which scales to the second power; while body weight is primarily based on volume, which scales to the third power. Meaning that as bodies get bigger, they get a LOT heavier; but as armor covers more surface, it doesn't get heavier in the same way. That's why a Tauren's armor wouldn't be that much heavier than a human's armor, but carrying another person's body (which DOES scale to volume) on your back is a very different matter.

    Put some thought into things before you wildly assert how something works.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Anything that doesn't come up in nature is an "unnatural exertion", that's arguing a meaningless technicality without understanding what the actual problem is. I said specifically that those things DON'T COMPARE, so address that, and not some meaningless terminological quibble.
    You were the one who brought up the term.

    Why do they not compare? Because armor weight scales differently from body weight. Armor is primarily about surface area, which scales to the second power; while body weight is primarily based on volume, which scales to the third power. Meaning that as bodies get bigger, they get a LOT heavier; but as armor covers more surface, it doesn't get heavier in the same way. That's why a Tauren's armor wouldn't be that much heavier than a human's armor, but carrying another person's body (which DOES scale to volume) on your back is a very different matter.
    And it doesn't matter. Because it's still weight their bodies were not made to carry on a normal basis. Tauren and draenei weren't born to carry heavy loads. Them carrying a full set of plate armor weights on their hooves. Constantly running and and fighting also wears the hooves. Climbing? You bet. It goes for the army soldier and adventurer, as well as those that work with heavy lifting. You can be strong as an ox, but your hooves don't benefit from musculature.

    Put some thought into things before you wildly assert how something works.
    Irony to the max, here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteady 87 View Post
    Shoes have never been a requirement for hoofed or cloven animals, just like they've never been needed for any other creature either. Humans included. They make some activities easier, more comfortable, and/or less burdensome and they help reduce wear and tear over time in some circumstances, but they're not "needed" as in if a creature doesn't have them they'll... well, I don't even know what people think happens if you don't have shoes. Spontaneously combust or something? I don't know what the assumption is.

    I mean, who goes out into the wild and shoes all those wild horses, zebras, buffalo, goats, and other hoofed/cloven animals that have existed just fine in nature for millennia? Surely someone must be doing it if they're so vital to one's existence.

    That said, the actual answer to the question is simple: It's the same reason no one sells underwear (nevermind that everyone's been wearing the exact same pair since day one); it just has no bearing on the game. 90% of the buildings in every city are blocked off/empty/pointless because they, too, have no bearing on the game.
    I'm not an expert but just my experience, if you don't wear shoes (or just certain type of shoes), you won't have the "bridge" in your feet, that make climbing harder and make it quite easier for you to injure yourself and get swollen feet

    Note: I do not know if it would make any different for humanoids with hooves, but regardless I do think it would be a nice "extra" customization, needed? no, popularly wanted? no, neat? maybe

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You were the one who brought up the term.
    And you are the one who doesn't understand it, so... QED?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And it doesn't matter. Because it's still weight their bodies were not made to carry on a normal basis.
    Are you for real? They weren't made to push buttons on a keyboard either, yet somehow THAT "unnatural exertion" wouldn't matter one bit here. Why? BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT QUANTITY NOT CATEGORY.

    I'm beginning to think you're being obtuse on purpose. Am I just being trolled here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Irony to the max, here.
    You can call it ironic, but you are demonstrating something else entirely.

  8. #28
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    And you are the one who doesn't understand it, so... QED?


    Are you for real? They weren't made to push buttons on a keyboard either, yet somehow THAT "unnatural exertion" wouldn't matter one bit here. Why? BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT QUANTITY NOT CATEGORY.

    I'm beginning to think you're being obtuse on purpose. Am I just being trolled here?
    There's a whole difference between pushing down a key that weights just a few grams with your fingers, to carrying hundreds of pounds of extra weight on your body every day through all sorts of terrain, rough and otherwise, going up and down cliffs, etc.

    Yes, the hooves of races such as tauren and draenei would suffer wear and damages because of how much soldiers, adventurers and other workers that deal with heavy lifting walk and run and grind their hooves against rough terrain such as pavement and stone.

    That is a fact of the matter.

    You can call it ironic, but you are demonstrating something else entirely.
    I call it as it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    There's a whole difference between pushing down a key that weights just a few grams with your fingers, to carrying hundreds of pounds of extra weight on your body every day through all sorts of terrain, rough and otherwise, going up and down cliffs, etc.
    NO SHIT, that's MY POINT.

    Yet somehow you argued purely on categorical terms, not on quantity of the actual workload. IMAGINE THAT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Yes, the hooves of races such as tauren and draenei would suffer wear and damages because of how much soldiers, adventurers and other workers that deal with heavy lifting walk and run and grind their hooves against rough terrain such as pavement and stone.
    That's not the same thing, as even when ridden casually, a single rider for a short trip isn't enough to warrant shoeing a horse. It's only on high loads and long hours that you need them.

    THAT is the fact of the matter. You do not understand the mechanics, as you've demonstrated time and time again.

    I call it as it is, mate.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That's not the same thing, as even when ridden casually, a single rider for a short trip isn't enough to warrant shoeing a horse. It's only on high loads and long hours that you need them.
    I'm not talking about horses. I'm talking about hooved races such as draenei and tauren. I specifically mentioned it:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    the hooves of races such as tauren and draenei
    And yet you are still somehow stuck on horses. Just stop and think about it for a second: we run through rough terrain all the time: streets, sidewalks, gravel, etc. We grind our feet on that same terrain when we perform heavy activities such as heavy lifting, pushing/pulling heavy loads, and fighting an opponent. All of that while wearing heavy armor.

    Wear and tear on bare hooves is not just a possibility but basically a certainty, warranting the need for horseshoes.

    You do not understand the mechanics, as you've demonstrated time and time again.

    I call it as it is, mate.
    You don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldwarte View Post
    For the races that have hooves, shouldn't there a be a farrier in town? I would love to sport some horse shoe bling on my Tauren.
    Counter shower thought:

    The cat race in ff14, do the males have barbed penises like real cats?

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxilian View Post
    I'm not an expert but just my experience, if you don't wear shoes (or just certain type of shoes), you won't have the "bridge" in your feet, that make climbing harder and make it quite easier for you to injure yourself and get swollen feet
    That was covered by the second sentence. "They make some activities easier, more comfortable, and/or less burdensome and they help reduce wear and tear over time in some circumstances."

    Again, we had been using beasts of burden for heavy workloads for a very, very, very long time before the idea of horseshoes were even conceived of. They're a convenience and are even beneficial in the long term, but they're not a requirement by any stretch of the imagination. Just like shoes (or shirts, or pants, or gloves, or...) on a human aren't. They open up more avenues, they make life more comfortable, and they help reduce wear and tear. That's it.

    Note: I do not know if it would make any different for humanoids with hooves, but regardless I do think it would be a nice "extra" customization, needed? no, popularly wanted? no, neat? maybe
    No arguments there, but it'd be a completely superfluous and barely noticeable customization option on a character. Adding a tiny mole to someone's face right below the hairline would be easier to spot than a slight sliver of dark grey on the bottom of their hoof.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Why do you need to wear shoes? >_>
    Again, it was already effing covered. See above. And they're not needed, they're preferred and desireable. I'm not wearing a god damned pair of shoes right now and lo and behold, I haven't spontaneously exploded or whatever idiocy it is you think happens if you don't wear shoes.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteady 87 View Post
    lwell, I don't even know what people think happens if you don't have shoes. Spontaneously combust or something? I don't know what the assumption is.
    You wear shoes so your toes and feet don't freeze in winter, so your feet don't burn on heated asphalt or hot sand in summer, so you don't stub them and cut then by stepping on things, so you don't get infected, so you don't get dirty etc

    I can't believe I have to explain to someone what a shoe is... You act like wearing shoes is a ludicrous notion with no practicality...

    And as a side note, look up the need pyramid. Humans need more than food, water and oxigen. Need is not limited to the most basic of needs, since we are complex creatures.
    Last edited by Loveliest; 2022-08-05 at 02:37 PM.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brenz View Post
    Counter shower thought:

    The cat race in ff14, do the males have barbed penises like real cats?
    Wtf…. A question I didn’t know I needed answered

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I'm not talking about horses. I'm talking about hooved races such as draenei and tauren. I specifically mentioned it:

    And yet you are still somehow stuck on horses. Just stop and think about it for a second: we run through rough terrain all the time: streets, sidewalks, gravel, etc. We grind our feet on that same terrain when we perform heavy activities such as heavy lifting, pushing/pulling heavy loads, and fighting an opponent. All of that while wearing heavy armor.

    Wear and tear on bare hooves is not just a possibility but basically a certainty, warranting the need for horseshoes.
    Apparently you don't understand why horses need horseshoes. They're not the same as shoes for humans, because humans have soles, not hooves. The problem is entirely about how much load for how long, they don't need protection "from terrain" as human feet would (at least not unless you go to extremes like sauntering down a volcano, in which case you'd use horse BOOTS not horseshoes anyway). The need for shoes is entirely proportional to how much exertion there is and for how long; past a certain point, horseshoes prevent certain problems that can affect a hoof. If that point isn't crossed, their efficacy goes down dramatically, which is WHY a lot of domesticated horses that AREN'T subjected to such exertions aren't shoed at all - even though they, too, may walk on "streets, sidewalks, gravel, etc." as you put it.

    Horseshoes and human shoes work differently, and are used for different reasons, at least if you go deeper than some vague generalization like "protection".

    You evidently don't know any of this, yet seem to be oddly confident about asserting all kinds of things. Have you ever considered that without expertise, you may not want to lean too far out the window?

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    I can't believe I have to explain to someone what a shoe is... You act like wearing shoes is a ludicrous notion with no practicality...
    Are you seriously acting like I'm the dense one here, when you apparently can't read the first part of the very god damned post you quoted? Jesus Christ.

    The person I was replying to is the one acting like if you don't have a shoe you spontaneously explode or whatever fucking idiocy they seem to think happens, and that no creature on the face of Earth (or Azeroth in this case) can do anything without them.

    There are plenty of cultures today, this very fucking day that don't wear shoes at all. The Vadoma people of Zimbabwe, for example. Hell, a lot of people out in the open, everyday world go barefoot all the god damned fucking time.

    But people like you, apparently, think that's somehow impossible and beyond comprehension. I guess you people think every creature on earth only evolved because they wore shoes, and even god damned fucking penguins and sidewinders wear shoes, too. Because God forbid they be able to exist or function in those frigid/desert climes without a pair of fucking shoes on.
    Last edited by Rocksteady 87; 2022-08-05 at 06:11 PM.

  17. #37
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteady 87 View Post
    Again, it was already effing covered. See above. And they're not needed, they're preferred and desireable. I'm not wearing a god damned pair of shoes right now and lo and behold, I haven't spontaneously exploded or whatever idiocy it is you think happens if you don't wear shoes.
    Right. Then why don't you head out and go on a trail while barefoot, and tell me how it goes. Also, try going out jogging a little while barefoot, and again, tell me how it goes.

    I honestly don't know how hard it is to understand that being a soldier, or an adventurer, or someone who works with heavy loads, would put a lot of stress on their feet, or, in this case, their hooves, necessitating the use of horseshoes to avoid wear and damage to their hooves over long periods of time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Apparently you don't understand why horses need horseshoes.
    I don't care why. Because I'm not talking about horses. I'm talking about draenei and tauren, as pointed out numerous times yet you insist on focusing on horses for some reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I don't care why. Because I'm not talking about horses. I'm talking about draenei and tauren, as pointed out numerous times yet you insist on focusing on horses for some reason.
    And you're basing all your assumption about why THEY need horseshoes on a (bad) understanding of why horses need horseshoes. Because you have no knowledge about the specific mechanics of Tauren or Draenei physiology, and are simply getting to your conclusions by inference (based on, again, RL horseshoes that you demonstrably know nothing about, and admittedly don't care about).

    Are you just straight-up making shit up as you please? In which case, fair enough, you do you, but then there's nothing further to discuss.

  19. #39
    These are the questions that deserve Chronicles-like books, screw the Titans and the Void Lords.

  20. #40
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    And you're basing all your assumption about why THEY need horseshoes on a (bad) understanding of why horses need horseshoes. Because you have no knowledge about the specific mechanics of Tauren or Draenei physiology, and are simply getting to your conclusions by inference (based on, again, RL horseshoes that you demonstrably know nothing about, and admittedly don't care about).
    The only reason we're talking horses here is because you keep insisting to bring them on where they don't apply.

    Tauren and draenei are not horses, despite having hooves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

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