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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by oKURWAmon View Post
    I was so happy when MoP finally removed this talent tree bullshit. Why bring it back now?
    So, I actually think having talent trees in the game is better than not having them, but I also currently am not happy with the version we're getting in DF.

    It feels like they're making the same mistake they made between TBC and Wrath and doing it again.

    If you didn't play the game back then, I urge you to go to WoWhead and pull up a talent calculator for both TBC and Wrath. Start on TBC and try to make a hunter spec. Then go to Wrath and try to do the same.

    They basically tried to remove the cookie cutter aspect of the talent trees by making some of them so complicated that you would essentially be required to use a simulation to know what the best series of talents was.


    I feel like this is what they're doing with the new talent trees. They don't need to be incredibly complicated. They really don't need to throw in all of these Legion legendary effects and Azurite armor effects as part of the tree itself. They have some weird placement of talents as well in some cases.

    I feel like the Evoker Tree is probably the best one. It feels closest to an old talent tree while the other classes I'm sitting here sifting through tons and tons of new abilities, powers, and trying to figure out what the themes are for the different sides of the tree.

    I also feel like the bottom... or.. top... I guess it depends on how you look at it... but the part of the trees that is closer to where you start off is a lot more coherent and simple than the ending of the trees which is what I like. And then it kinda just devolves into a simulation fiesta of what is better than what at the end.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by roboscorcher View Post
    My only gripe with the talent trees is that we aren't getting mechanical overhauls of the specs. For the most part, the devs are just using existing permanent and borrowed abilities from the current game. I was kind of hoping that more classes would get spells similar to Evoker, or maybe some swingtimer-based abilities (like seal-twisting). With the UI overhaul, now would be the perfect time to add a baseline swingtimer.
    Don't you think people who want this can just play classic?

  3. #83
    Warchief roboscorcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Don't you think people who want this can just play classic?
    Seal-twisting gets deleted in the Wrath prepatch, and they have zero TBC legacy servers planned, so this playstyle (which I love) is gone forever. But don't worry, the wheelchair version of the spec gets to live on via Era servers.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    If that is the case, then why does Wrath allow me to play retribution/prot paladin hybrid who uses a spellpower weapon in PvP?
    you are kinda lying in your original post anyway. Since you mentioned paladin, the new talents already showcase multiple possible builds for both retri and prot and the in between fillers in the new talent trees are actually much more impactful than the vanilla-wotlk era fillers which were just "2% crit yay".

    The retribution tree has a clearly defined aoe and single target path and you can also mix the 2 for cleave heavy boss fights for example. I havent looked at the other classes as I main paladin myself but this already looks a ton better than what we have currently.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by roboscorcher View Post
    Seal-twisting gets deleted in the Wrath prepatch, and they have zero TBC legacy servers planned, so this playstyle (which I love) is gone forever. But don't worry, the wheelchair version of the spec gets to live on via Era servers.
    Out of curiosity, do you understand why this would not really work in the modern game? Like setting aside personal preference on gameplay, swing timer stuff just is not practical with the way content has been designed for the past 10 years, and certainly not in the modern era since 2016. And it would probably be even worse in pvp.

    It's just not the same game anymore and I doubt it ever will be again.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    you are kinda lying in your original post anyway. Since you mentioned paladin, the new talents already showcase multiple possible builds for both retri and prot and the in between fillers in the new talent trees are actually much more impactful than the vanilla-wotlk era fillers which were just "2% crit yay".

    The retribution tree has a clearly defined aoe and single target path and you can also mix the 2 for cleave heavy boss fights for example. I havent looked at the other classes as I main paladin myself but this already looks a ton better than what we have currently.
    Which was the lie?
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  7. #87
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    In the end they're both basically the same...both old and new talents had illusion of choice. Only difference between these and the current ones is most of the stuff that we choose was already baked into the class/spec

    No big deal to me either way anymore...but I guess some people need to click a button every few levels to feel like they got more powerful lol

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    In the end they're both basically the same...both old and new talents had illusion of choice. Only difference between these and the current ones is most of the stuff that we choose was already baked into the class/spec

    No big deal to me either way anymore...but I guess some people need to click a button every few levels to feel like they got more powerful lol
    Just like some people need to swap talents between trash packs to feel like they got more powerful lol

  9. #89
    The talent trees are a great idea BUT ...
    you can feel how incredibly bankrupt blizzard is creatively. At least in the class department. This would have been the perfect time to not only reintroduce a lot of old playstyles but also put in new exciting stuff. Im just really disappointed we again don't see cool abilities being added and most specs just being a boring snorefest. My only hope is that they plan major class revamps for the next expansion and thats why we get little changes.
    I could think of stuff for literally every spec in the game to make them more fun and impactful. Im always baffled how their class department lacks so hard even though its one of the if not the most important pillar of the game.

    Return of talent trees and general layout/idea really good. Execution rather terrible and extremely uncreative with some exceptions.
    What all classes need are cool and impactful spells that require decision making on the fly. Like who cares about Prayer of Mending for example? You press that 1 button and forget it. 0 interaction aka trash spell. Boring.
    Last edited by Arai; 2022-08-04 at 09:34 PM.

  10. #90
    My only complaint regarding them excluding the interupt selection but also they are not really creative in a mythic plus scenario, raids will allow more creativity due to the large amount of players allowing more customization but i still feel like if there is a right way and a wrong way i think that only serves to trick players instead of help them. I kind of think that they should just be removed honestly and take the FF14 approach to classes / specs since is it a choice if your just being worse then you otherwise would.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by oKURWAmon View Post
    I absolutely despise talent tress for the following reason:

    1) You need to look up the randomly designed singular motherfucking path and progress along in order to be able to unlock the one ability you like.

    2) It's cluttered as fuck: too many choices and you always feel like fuck I'm missing one of my most important abilities now!

    3) It's a nightmare to balance! 38 specs and 13 class trees on top of it: Just how the absolute fuck does Blizzard expect to keep them balanced?

    4) Players literally forced to always change talent points now. On a per pull basis. Imagine the time it takes to re-talent every single fucking button you have in raids.

    5) Imagine the time and resources this clusterfuck takes away which could be spent on other areas of the game. Every time I open up WoWHead I'm bombarded with a FULL PAGE of class and spec talent changes now. Who the fuck even cares? Just give us the tools to play our class and spec and be done with it.

    And the list goes on and on.

    I was so happy when MoP finally removed this talent tree bullshit. Why bring it back now?
    Easy to see you don’t know what you’re complaining about. You should look into this for yourself, some of your issues aren’t real.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Controlling how players act is part of game design.
    Yes, you are right. In this case though, you don't need to actually engage with the system to use it, as it's a matter of copying an already done build, which is the exact same thing that happens now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    It's just... I can't see it being used. Even now players use raid specs for the open world and leveling even when they are usually the worse talents for it.

    You can never go home or cross the same river twice. If you try it everything will have changed and seem so very small.

    I understand your desire though it's one I know....
    I prefer to have an additional choice available, than not to have it for the sake of simplicity. We'll see how it's going to pan out, i'm sure enough players will adapt and even if most people will copy a build and stick to that, it's going to be fine. There's a reason why build templates are implemented - you can try stuff out without any hassle, which is the most important thing given the new system.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Which was the lie?
    That the new talent trees are not fun and offer the same shit while the fun trees are in wotlk. Like... you re talking about a version that is just starting, with the aim of keeping a lot of power lost over time and being evergreen for expansions to come through the choice nodes versus a version where most nodes are 1-2% Stat increases and most classes have one cookie cutter build.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by oKURWAmon View Post

    4) Players literally forced to always change talent points now. On a per pull basis. Imagine the time it takes to re-talent every single fucking button you have in raids.
    Download Talenter,

    have presets, when you want to change click a button, and it prefills it in seconds for you so you dont have to Click every **Fucking** Button.
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

    If you are trying to AE tank and a bad dps is attacking the wrong target and dies, we call that justice.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    That the new talent trees are not fun and offer the same shit while the fun trees are in wotlk. Like... you re talking about a version that is just starting, with the aim of keeping a lot of power lost over time and being evergreen for expansions to come through the choice nodes versus a version where most nodes are 1-2% Stat increases and most classes have one cookie cutter build.
    That's not what the word "lie" means.

    Have fun ""choosing"" abilities that were ripped from your spell book though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arai View Post
    My only hope is that they plan major class revamps for the next expansion and thats why we get little changes.
    Nah, you're going to play the exact same Legion version of your class for the rest of this game's lifespan. Best they can do is shuffle some offensive cooldowns around.
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2022-08-05 at 08:53 AM.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  16. #96
    I just took a look at warrior trees and overall they looking pretty fun. Im happy that some spells return and that you finally can skill warbreaker+cleave, or doubletime + stormbolt.

    Im happy that old stances return and i hope monk talents are that great aswell.

    And for all the crybabies: if nothing really changes you can be happy, look for your cookiecutter talents and go for it.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Arai View Post
    The talent trees are a great idea BUT ...
    you can feel how incredibly bankrupt blizzard is creatively. At least in the class department. This would have been the perfect time to not only reintroduce a lot of old playstyles but also put in new exciting stuff.
    Agree. They're still trying to micromanage how we play the classes. Shadow priest is a perfect example, in WOD we had at least three very different playstyles thanks to Clarity of Power and dot weaving. Couldn't we have gotten those options back?

  18. #98
    Mechagnome terminaltrip421's Avatar
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    the talent tree are the furthest thing from a useful addition IMO

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    That's not what the word "lie" means.

    Have fun ""choosing"" abilities that were ripped from your spell book though.



    Nah, you're going to play the exact same Legion version of your class for the rest of this game's lifespan. Best they can do is shuffle some offensive cooldowns around.
    The system has to start somewhere. Some are ripped from the spell tree and some are new and theres a decent balance between the 2. There is also the option to do combinations that were otherwise not available before. The idea going forward is that you will never lose those abilities and instead they will keep adding abilities in choice nodes so that it also just doesnt become an endless vertical tree which was the issue with the original talent trees.
    Whether they will deliver on the evergreen nature they are aiming for.... only time will tell. But it is looking ok for a start.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    The system has to start somewhere. Some are ripped from the spell tree and some are new and theres a decent balance between the 2. There is also the option to do combinations that were otherwise not available before. The idea going forward is that you will never lose those abilities and instead they will keep adding abilities in choice nodes so that it also just doesnt become an endless vertical tree which was the issue with the original talent trees.
    Whether they will deliver on the evergreen nature they are aiming for.... only time will tell. But it is looking ok for a start.
    Where have they said that you will "never lose those abilities"?
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

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