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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Yes, you are right. In this case though, you don't need to actually engage with the system to use it, as it's a matter of copying an already done build, which is the exact same thing that happens now.
    You have to engage with it even if you are simply copying builds. The fact that you have to change how your character plays in different content is going to impact you regardless.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Where have they said that you will "never lose those abilities"?
    When the announced the talent trees they specifically said the point here was to have a customization system that they can add to every expansion.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    When the announced the talent trees they specifically said the point here was to have a customization system that they can add to every expansion.
    Just because they said that they might eventually add new stuff to the trees doesn't mean that they won't remove/replace stuff in the future.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Just because they said that they might eventually add new stuff to the trees doesn't mean that they won't remove/replace stuff in the future.
    When you see a salad on the menu, it doesn't need to say "And also no human feces" to come to the conclusion it won't contain human feces.

    They wouldn't specifically say that the point of this system is not having to replace things and instead being able to expand every expansion if the point was to remove stuff every expansion.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    When you see a salad on the menu, it doesn't need to say "And also no human feces" to come to the conclusion it won't contain human feces.

    They wouldn't specifically say that the point of this system is not having to replace things and instead being able to expand every expansion if the point was to remove stuff every expansion.
    Yeah good luck with that. I'll believe it when I see it.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Where have they said that you will "never lose those abilities"?
    When they were explaining the new talent system they did not specifically say this word for word but what they did say is that they realize that losing abilities and borrowed abilities feels like ass but at the same time the problem they had with the old talent trees is that they couldn't keep vertically growing them forever because you would just get a ton of ability bloat eventually (which happened).

    Then they said that the idea with the new talent trees is to design an evergreen system where the rows grow a lot slower and new skills are added to the choice nodes without replacing the old ones because they just become another choice. At the same time you dont have ability bloat because you get different abilities added on the same choice node so you re just trading one ability for another but if you want to go back to the old ability you can do that.

    A choice node that right now has 2 choices could end up having 4 choices for example 1-2 expansions down the line. So you keep the old 2 choices and also have 2 new ones without increasing the number of buttons on your hotbar as time goes by which makes it unnecessary to scrap skills in the future.

    Again I repeat, whether they will properly maintain this down the line remains to be seen but on paper this system is as good as it gets in order to both keep gaining new stuff without having to give them up and simultaneously not having ability bloat.
    Last edited by Delever; 2022-08-05 at 02:48 PM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Yeah good luck with that. I'll believe it when I see it.
    If you aren't going to believe what they say anyway, why bother asking what they said?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  7. #107
    Just sounds like you're very whiny opinion? idk or go into game dev

  8. #108
    So far for the classes that I play and what I've seen of their initial talent tree here is what I think:

    The talent trees are anything special and are not revolutionary. Today we have one spell or talent that does something. In the talent tree, we need to select multiple nodes for it to do the same thing as current state.

    There will always be a path with very little choice between talents. This is almost exactly how it is today.

    This seems like a lot of work and window dressing for essentially what will be the same system we have today. Look up a guide, pick what it tells you because it's mathematically the best or somebody says it's meta, and go about your day.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You have to engage with it even if you are simply copying builds. The fact that you have to change how your character plays in different content is going to impact you regardless.
    And in what way is different from now?
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

  10. #110
    Because we exist to fill Ion's retro backwards fetish.

    Here is the cold hard truth : there is no diversity, no choice, everyone will go to wowhead/icyveins/etc and will copypaste the 1-2 optimized build just like they did so every expansion that existed.
    Quote Originally Posted by RedGamer030 View Post
    I do not need to be constructive in this thread, nor provide an argument. There is nothing here to actually debate. Your reasoning is flawed and thusly you have no argument.
    ↑ Epitome of Internet Logic

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    And in what way is different from now?
    The trees are different from the old system and provide quite radically different options.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The trees are different from the old system and provide quite radically different options.
    He is asking how changing build depending on content is different from now - because you do that now aswell.

    The main difference is that the new talent trees actually give you more options when it comes to aoe vs st vs cleave and utility aswell. There are some genuinely nice things in them.

    If you cant handle looking at a talent tree like that then a rpg isnt for you in the first place.

  13. #113
    The things they're pushing in DF, like talent trees, tell me the devs' improvement well for WoW has run dry. I don't think they have any idea what to do at this point that could save the game.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    He is asking how changing build depending on content is different from now - because you do that now aswell.

    The main difference is that the new talent trees actually give you more options when it comes to aoe vs st vs cleave and utility aswell. There are some genuinely nice things in them.

    If you cant handle looking at a talent tree like that then a rpg isnt for you in the first place.
    I didn’t say anything about this system versus the old system. I just took issue with someone saying that the system has no effect whatsoever on someone who doesn’t want to engage with it.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    you will never lose those abilities and instead they will keep adding abilities in choice nodes
    Not only this requires a blue source, but even then, after two massive sessions of skill pruning plus the completely ineffectual "unpruning" of SL, it's a quite bold statement to make. One that they could very well walk back on at any time, on top of that.

  16. #116
    Screw talent trees at this point, leave it the way it i. Also if anythings alluring is the ability to farm gold and not just buy a token.

  17. #117
    What makes you say the paths are "singular"? I have made several builds and most nodes you can get to multiple ways...

    Your point number 4 is simply not true given we have the ability to save custom builds. You can simply select your build via drop-down.

    Nice rant though.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by oKURWAmon View Post
    I absolutely despise talent tress for the following reason:

    1) You need to look up the randomly designed singular motherfucking path and progress along in order to be able to unlock the one ability you like.

    2) It's cluttered as fuck: too many choices and you always feel like fuck I'm missing one of my most important abilities now!

    3) It's a nightmare to balance! 38 specs and 13 class trees on top of it: Just how the absolute fuck does Blizzard expect to keep them balanced?

    4) Players literally forced to always change talent points now. On a per pull basis. Imagine the time it takes to re-talent every single fucking button you have in raids.

    5) Imagine the time and resources this clusterfuck takes away which could be spent on other areas of the game. Every time I open up WoWHead I'm bombarded with a FULL PAGE of class and spec talent changes now. Who the fuck even cares? Just give us the tools to play our class and spec and be done with it.

    And the list goes on and on.

    I was so happy when MoP finally removed this talent tree bullshit. Why bring it back now?
    Because you are in the minority with your opinion

  19. #119
    The new talent trees are basically just pruning with a new coat of paint on it. It is an effective way to ignore the complaints about ability pruning in releases from prior to legion and borrowed power since legion. So now they just reset classes back to square one with with level squishing and ability squishing and this new talent tree starts from basically level 70 from TBC and just drops 40 levels worth of talents as if players won't notice that they are missing. It is all about Blizzard not having any earthly idea what a level 140 (ignoring level squish) character is supposed to be able to do in the game so they just keep resetting them back to some arbitrary base level of abilities. That is what this whole borrowed power system was about, where they tried to implement some kind of alternate progression scheme tied to it. But if they are redoing talents then they are by definition redoing classes and should have some idea what class power progression looks like beyond the next couple expansions if they are really serious. Otherwise it will back to the drawing board in another expansion or two for class design.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The trees are different from the old system and provide quite radically different options.
    Was referring to the fact most people will just go in whatever website or discord and just copy the right build for the specific content.

    I agree that new trees are significantly better and pffer much more variety (which will depend on blizzard's balancing work though).

    EDIT how have i missed point #4 on OP's rant. @OP it doesn't take any time to respec, you can save various presets/build and swap between them on the fly. It's literally a dropdown menu on the talent interface. And no one forces you to change anything. I can see a per-boss swapping and honestly it's finally good to be able to go cleave or aoe or single target without any issue.
    Last edited by Coldkil; 2022-08-06 at 05:18 PM.
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

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