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  1. #21
    I've played around a bit with the talent trees and don't see any glaring issues. This will sound a bit counter-intuitive, but having to make a value judgment on things is what actually provides value to them. Yes, back in the Vanilla days I could never level a warrior (no self-healing was a massive, massive issue). I created an alt simply b/c my main had zero shot at soloing ZG for a shot at the tiger. In DF, you can have multiple builds saved so that you can essentially pull out the build needed for the content you do. For a raid, you won't need 25 people with interrupts, for example.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by aldahar View Post
    For a raid, you won't need 25 people with interrupts, for example.
    That's true, but that's also a potential problem.

    People want CHOICE, not "spec A if it's a raid, spec B if it's a dungeon" kind of deals; or "take this talent in single target, this this other one in AoE" like we had a lot of "choices" come down to in the current trees.

    And it's still up in the air how much ACTUAL choice the DF trees will deliver.

  3. #23
    Made me really mad to see that warriors are getting stances back while DKs don't get presences.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Made me really mad to see that warriors are getting stances back while DKs don't get presences.
    Yeah, there is definitely some glaring favoritism going on with select classes, and I wish I had time/the ability to access the PTR so I can give proper feedback. Warrior and Shaman have some flaws like the rest of the trees, but the love the devs poured into these classes and their fantasies are clearly evident based on the amount of returning skills and new abilities warriors and shamans can choose from.

    But to continue with the DK criticism, there are SO MANY passive "x percent increase to x" talents in the core tree which have no impact on class synergy or introduce noticeable ways to engage with gameplay. The same is true for Paladin's core tree, but is far, far worse; while DK's only need to invest 2-4 points to get their stat passives, Paladin has to invest a staggering 8-10. Think about that for a second - 8-10 of your talent choices are going towards mandatory DPS increases that improve your throughput with zero interaction with how you play your Paladin. And to make the situation worse, THESE ESTIMATES DON'T INCLUDE ANY SPEC-SPECIFIC STAT PASSIVES. Retribution alone has about 10 or so passive stat talents in their tree, forcing Ret to invest a staggering 16-20 of their talent pool in uninteresting skills just to ensure they stay competitive. The reason for this large estimate is because the devs are forcing Paladins to invest 2-3 points per talent across multiple talent nodes within their trees to reach the highest rank and unlock further paths, leaving the trees feeling rigid and uninteresting as a result.

    And like others have said, some classes don't get updates, so we are left in the dark for why they have opted to make the decisions they have made. I know its a bit early to judge the final product, but it doesn't instill trust in the devs, and its pushing me away from resubbing for the new expansion altogether. After all, why bother to invest time in a game if I know the class I select is going to, once again, be neglected?
    Last edited by Celvira; 2022-08-03 at 06:10 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gungus View Post

    You think the girl born with eight limbs is now a spider?

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Alcsaar View Post
    Literally a garbage comment. Expecting people playing subpar classes to have to create their own groups for everything is mind boggling stupid. Oh your class is shit? Make a group so people can't possibly decline to based on that! Instead of just, you know, making the class desirable.
    The classes are fine only your hyperbole and laziness are what is keeping you from the content you seemingly want. "I want to do something, but I don't want to have to put forth any effort for it!" Expecting people to accommodate for you in their groups just for reasons is what is truly mind boggling.

    Stop pretending to be helpless and take control over what you want to do and achieve. Or cry about it on the forums either way I ain't your dad.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by talmir View Post
    "Hey, I'd like to join the group"
    "Sorry bud, you dont have interrupts"
    "Oh, but I have this cool ability to bubble myself"
    auto-reject

    Yeah... that'd be great....
    The funny thing is even with everyone having an interrupt, its still underutilised

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    Absolutely disagree.

    Not every class needs the same utility kit. It's actually absurd that at this point every class is the same.
    Classes don't have anywhere close to the same utility kit now lol!

    Aside from certain over or undertuned outliers, it is probably the biggest issue in the game. Almost all the truly good utility is piled into a few classes/specs

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    Good, the more different classes are, the better. Homogenization among classes is not something to be desired.
    Say that when you play one of the groups that hardly get attention.

    Hunters have gotten multiple rounds of tuning, overhauls and feedback. SPriests got a single "yeah we're busy" and buff to the least fun to use abilities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2
    People who don't buy the deluxe edition should be permanently banned. I'm sick of playing with poor people.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Alcsaar View Post
    Why do they need to create a "base" that reuses old skills? Why can't the base just be new interesting talents without impacting default core skills?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Literally a garbage comment. Expecting people playing subpar classes to have to create their own groups for everything is mind boggling stupid. Oh your class is shit? Make a group so people can't possibly decline to based on that! Instead of just, you know, making the class desirable.
    Because the talent trees are being implemented as a future proofing system, not as a flashy new thing (despite how marketing may market it as a bullet point--thats more a problem with the expansions ambition). They're not meant to be artifacts with a gaurunteed flashy new skill for everyone. They're a reimplementation and reimagining of the original character development system.

    Whether they achieve that is not what I'm talking about,, that's simply what they're doing.

    Also, I agree with the op broadly but I absolutely do not agree with the specific example of demanding that every character have the same cc abilities. Homogenization was something they had to unfuck after cata and mists--it was talked about a lot back then because the mindset was homogeny == balance.
    Last edited by Magistrate; 2022-08-03 at 07:14 PM.

  10. #30
    Wow team is not properly organized nor well managed, so favoritism among classes/specs is as always rampant.

    Some classes will most certainly get shafted, based on history i am expecting it to surely be shamans and most likely some other hybrid classes.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    Wow team is not properly organized nor well managed, so favoritism among classes/specs is as always rampant.

    Some classes will most certainly get shafted, based on history i am expecting it to surely be shamans and most likely some other hybrid classes.
    Ironically shamans have one of the best looking trees and are continuing to get a lot of updates and adjustments to them to make them even better.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Alcsaar View Post
    Talent trees lack serious cohesion and themes between classes. A lot of the design decisions are completely opposite.

    Some classes just get back things they had before and very few or no new things, while other classes get all their good stuff base line, and then much of the stuff in the trees is new.

    Then we have other super weird inconsistencies, like classes that don't get their interrupt base line and have to spec into it, while classes like warriors, rogues, and mages do.

    We all know that these trees are built by different teams, but how hard is it to sit down with each other and at least come up with a general formula for the trees? Some teams did a really great job, and then others just completely shit all over the trees for the respective classes, and that is not fair to those classes getting shafted.
    My biggest gripe at this moment is that you can't actually provide any feedback unless you're in the Alpha.

    I can 100% give feedback on the talent trees without needing to actually play the game. I know how the classes work, and I can already see some problems.

    By the time I can actually give feedback, it'll probably be too late to change the talents.

  13. #33
    Feral looks like a joke compared to others.
    Do you hear the voices too?

  14. #34
    druid general talent tree is so bad, the entire thing needs to be scrapped.

    4 separate specs in a single general talent tree, bloated with filler points that most other specs do not want to take.

  15. #35
    The Paladin tree is pretty terrible for that too. Paladins have to sacrifice healing/utility for DPS increases, which forces Ret paladins in particular down a very narrow route due to them needing the DPS talents to stay competitive outside of casual content.
    Last edited by Celvira; 2022-08-03 at 09:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gungus View Post

    You think the girl born with eight limbs is now a spider?

  16. #36
    That's very obvious and not a hidden fact

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Classes don't have anywhere close to the same utility kit now lol!

    Aside from certain over or undertuned outliers, it is probably the biggest issue in the game. Almost all the truly good utility is piled into a few classes/specs
    That's been really baffling to me for years.

    Instead of spreading the love, they're like "oh yeah Rogues can give mass stealth, have short-CD control that runs into different DRs, they have Vanish, an immunity, and also an out-of-combat hard CC, I'm sure I'm forgetting 5 other things, too" and meanwhile many other specs are like Hi we exist and get a big fat "no thanks" in return.

    Same with Warlocks, really - you just had to put summon, healthstone, AND gateway on the same class?

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    People want CHOICE, not "spec A if it's a raid, spec B if it's a dungeon" kind of deals; or "take this talent in single target, this this other one in AoE" like we had a lot of "choices" come down to in the current trees.

    And it's still up in the air how much ACTUAL choice the DF trees will deliver.
    What are those choices you expect to get, other than halfway ST, cleave and AoE specs? What exactly do you want to choose if not to specialize into either ST, cleave or AoE?

  19. #39
    It's extremely annoying that priests didn't get silence on their general tree. I was looking forward to finally playing discipline, but no interrupt=no play. Does every spec need a dispel or hard cc? No, but any spec that does dps needs an interrupt, even if that is dpsing to heal like disc.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    Good, the more different classes are, the better. Homogenization among classes is not something to be desired.
    That's always said by players who's classes did get everything they need and the cool stuff. Sorry, but STOP this bullshit about "homogenization"; the only expansion this was true was probably MoP, and it was the best class experience in the game ever. Then there was an influx of streamer who were butthurt about "homogenization" and since then people can't stop fricking out about it.

    For me, classes can be as much homogenized as possible, as long as they are fun, that's it.

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